Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Nefertiti on April 23, 2019, 09:21:18 PM
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Just have a mixed member proportional list by gender alternate - same as MCAs. For Executive every ticket must have both genders - such that D/PORK or D/Governor are male-female combo. I know some will cry "democracy" - which is a self-serving view - cause women are 52%.
Reduce the elective constituencies and wards by half to maintain the overall tally.
This should apply to public corporate boards, parastatals, college boards, etc. Women bring balanced perspective - issues like children, the disabled, LGBT, the elderly, etc - will be addressed better with women on board. The Uwezo Fund and other tokenism will never make headway.
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I find the proportional list approach intriguing. Though I am still fairly clueless how it works.
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We risk killing democracy by doing that.. people should be free to elect a DJ like Madagascar or a comedian like Ukraine.The people are supreme.Only Matiba could put it better.Let the people decide.In Bomet Joyce definitely winning again...his fourth elective term..so is Ngilu.
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For those men or women opposed to affirmative action and women rights - why do we have human rights to protect you from the brutal police, EJK, illegal detention, etc? Stretching the concept tells you women we can't hack it against the boys. How many top ladies do you know? Any of us sniffing the presidency? Imagine we have the Octogenaric Odinga - and the Kleptomaniac Ruto - and Kenya won't give the woman another look. All top politicians, CEOs, businesspeople, academics, scientists - are male dominated. It shows without quota it's a pipe dream that society will adapt and accept the woman.
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I find the proportional is approach intriguing. Though I am still fairly clueless how it works.
Look at counties. You vote directly for PORK, MPs, etc - and the parties nominate from a pre-selected list to meet gender quota. What we must do is reduce the directly elected - and mandate the party MMPR - to nominate. The rules of the party lists should be in the katiba - public recruitment like CSs, parastatal jobs, etc - no monkey business or bedroom deals. No appointing Oburu or Beth Mugo or such. Transparent party lists - complete with KRA, HELB, EACC clearance.
MMPR is not far from parliamentary - cause you vote for the direct reps + party list.
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30% is fair...50% is altering the rule of majority.The basic tenet of democracy is 50% plus one. You force people to vote with 50% already gender predetermined and turn into Autogracy.
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We risk killing democracy by doing that.. people should be free to elect a DJ like Madagascar or a comedian like Ukraine.The people are supreme.Only Matiba could put it better.Let the people decide.In Bomet Joyce definitely winning again...his fourth elective term..so is Ngilu.
That's chauvinistic and self serving. Argue objectively as you do with economics. What "democracy" discriminates half the population? You cannot wish away the reality of tradition and patriarchy. Say me and you - when running for a corporate job we have equal footing. MERIT. But turn to the ballot - suddenly my chances against you plummet. Democracy is imperfect and is not a meritocracy. If you accept there is tribalism which deny say Odinga and favor drunkard Uhuru - then how can you deny sexism?
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We risk killing democracy by doing that.. people should be free to elect a DJ like Madagascar or a comedian like Ukraine.The people are supreme.Only Matiba could put it better.Let the people decide.In Bomet Joyce definitely winning again...his fourth elective term..so is Ngilu.
That's chauvinistic and self serving. Argue objectively as you do with economics. What "democracy" discriminates half the population? You cannot wish away the reality of tradition and patriarchy. Say me and you - when running for a corporate job we have equal footing. MERIT. But turn to the ballot - suddenly my chances against you plummet. Democracy is imperfect and is not a meritocracy. If you accept there is tribalism which deny say Odinga and favor drunkard Uhuru - then how can you deny sexism?
50-50 is outright outrageous in a democracy...what would be the point of voting dear...if already half the post are gender reserved.You must be crazy for real.
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30% is fair...50% is altering the rule of majority.The basic tenet of democracy is 50% plus one. You force people to vote with 50% already gender predetermined and turn into Autogracy.
Define "majority"? Women are the majority but are oppressed by tradition. Merit, democracy or majority are loaded terms. Throw away that dictionary. The apartheid mzungu would equally raise "merit" or "democracy" - say in SA - resisting furiously black empowerment and quotas. Ignoring the reality of apartheid history and its socioenomic impacts. SA mwafrika cannot just compete in business with boers - cause "merit" - the reality of apartheid history totally spins the concept on its head.
If you accept apartheid stumps dictionary "merit", if you accept tribalism tilts the scales, if you accept human rights, I dare you to table an objective arguement against gender parity and women rights.
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We risk killing democracy by doing that.. people should be free to elect a DJ like Madagascar or a comedian like Ukraine.The people are supreme.Only Matiba could put it better.Let the people decide.In Bomet Joyce definitely winning again...his fourth elective term..so is Ngilu.
That's chauvinistic and self serving. Argue objectively as you do with economics. What "democracy" discriminates half the population? You cannot wish away the reality of tradition and patriarchy. Say me and you - when running for a corporate job we have equal footing. MERIT. But turn to the ballot - suddenly my chances against you plummet. Democracy is imperfect and is not a meritocracy. If you accept there is tribalism which deny say Odinga and favor drunkard Uhuru - then how can you deny sexism?
50-50 is outright outrageous in a democracy...what would be the point of voting dear...if already half the post are gender reserved.You must be crazy for real.
I'm not crazy. I am OBJECTIVE. You don't vote in CSs, KDF, MDs, Ambassadors - you delegate the job to Uhuru and MPs. So the concept of representation is not new. Delegated authority to the Party - same as delegating to PORK.
Let's start here: If you consider carefully the Apartheid scenario - of warped economics where boers control the wealth - you can stretch your bias around the chauvinist bend. How is partriarchy not a subtler, more devious apartheid? If Mwafrika cannot compete by standard merit against the Boer - why should the woman compete with the man on the same measure?
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We risk killing democracy by doing that.. people should be free to elect a DJ like Madagascar or a comedian like Ukraine.The people are supreme.Only Matiba could put it better.Let the people decide.In Bomet Joyce definitely winning again...his fourth elective term..so is Ngilu.
Karua, Ngilu, Laboso or Waiguru - are the exception that proves nothing. There is sexism - the exception validates the hypothesis - not disprove it. If we had merit - there would a big number of women in political office - just like we have in the corporate world. In most Africa women start a thousand yards behind the men. Simple reality.
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Robina - I am not against affirmative action to correct historical injustice against women but democracy is more sacroscant. We can demand 50% of all appointed officials and even civil services be of opposite gender - but leave democracy alone.
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I find the proportional is approach intriguing. Though I am still fairly clueless how it works.
Look at counties. You vote directly for PORK, MPs, etc - and the parties nominate from a pre-selected list to meet gender quota. What we must do is reduce the directly elected - and mandate the party MMPR - to nominate. The rules of the party lists should be in the katiba - public recruitment like CSs, parastatal jobs, etc - no monkey business or bedroom deals. No appointing Oburu or Beth Mugo or such. Transparent party lists - complete with KRA, HELB, EACC clearance.
MMPR is not far from parliamentary - cause you vote for the direct reps + party list.
Interesting. Is it the same as this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_representation?
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How is she winning given the high performance standards set by Isaac? Is she matching them or there is no one to take on her between now and 2022? Is the Kalenjin surprise of youthful leaders evaporating?
We risk killing democracy by doing that.. people should be free to elect a DJ like Madagascar or a comedian like Ukraine.The people are supreme.Only Matiba could put it better.Let the people decide. In Bomet Joyce definitely winning again...his fourth elective term..so is Ngilu.
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We need to agree on the meaning of democracy first. Elections, parties, affirmative action are all part of democracy - along with free press, human rights, civil society, judiciary, etc. Don't limit us to your Oxford dictionary version.
Robina - I am not against affirmative action to correct historical injustice against women but democracy is more sacroscant. We can demand 50% of all appointed officials and even civil services be of opposite gender - but leave democracy alone.
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Amazing how people will happily accept affirmative action on say apartheid or appointive roles. Provided they don't get to concede any real power - which is what 50-50 is. We can have men rights too to avoid any reverse discrimination - which is now the case in some western countries - father's rights, right of bachelors to adopt, etc. You can't tell us a global trend is somehow anathema to your wisdom. A right is not a privilege but a correction of imbalanced reality. Like the Patriarchy - which is Gender apartheid.
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Amazing how people will happily accept affirmative action on say apartheid or appointive roles. Provided they don't get to concede any real power - which is what 50-50 is. We can have men rights too to avoid any reverse discrimination - which is now the case in some western countries - father's rights, right of bachelors to adopt, etc. You can't tell us a global trend is somehow anathema to your wisdom. A right is not a privilege but a correction of imbalanced reality. Like the Patriarchy - which is Gender apartheid.
For me, whatever scheme works for women I am okay with. Women work harder than men as far as I can tell. Especially in Africa. The democracy experiment in Kenya has shown quite a few cracks. It doesn't hurt to try new things.
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Amazing how people will happily accept affirmative action on say apartheid or appointive roles. Provided they don't get to concede any real power - which is what 50-50 is. We can have men rights too to avoid any reverse discrimination - which is now the case in some western countries - father's rights, right of bachelors to adopt, etc. You can't tell us a global trend is somehow anathema to your wisdom. A right is not a privilege but a correction of imbalanced reality. Like the Patriarchy - which is Gender apartheid.
For me, whatever scheme works for women I am okay with. Women work harder than men as far as I can tell. Especially in Africa. The democracy experiment in Kenya has shown quite a few cracks. It doesn't hurt to try new things.
Indeed. Any reformed system will face resistance - like the Baba na Mama crew of the 80s - opposing democracy or freedom - in itself a form of equality. They rathered power remain in "stable" Nyayo & Kanu grisp - as they do now per the men. Conservatism is seldom right and ultimately lapses.
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I find the proportional is approach intriguing. Though I am still fairly clueless how it works.
Look at counties. You vote directly for PORK, MPs, etc - and the parties nominate from a pre-selected list to meet gender quota. What we must do is reduce the directly elected - and mandate the party MMPR - to nominate. The rules of the party lists should be in the katiba - public recruitment like CSs, parastatal jobs, etc - no monkey business or bedroom deals. No appointing Oburu or Beth Mugo or such. Transparent party lists - complete with KRA, HELB, EACC clearance.
MMPR is not far from parliamentary - cause you vote for the direct reps + party list.
Interesting. Is it the same as this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Party-list_proportional_representation?
Yes. Principally i don't prefer the First-past-the-post system. MMPR is a healthy formula - except for the chauvinistic, the conservative, the compromised or the ignorant.
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The heart of democracy is one man or woman one vote.That is foundation of any democracy. The tinkering should never alter the core and make a mockery of democracy by pre selected half the candidates.
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The heart of democracy is one man or woman one vote.That is foundation of any democracy. The tinkering should never alter the core and make a mockery of democracy by pre selected half the candidates.
It's still one man one vote with affirmative action. You're conflating to justify your bias.
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The heart of democracy is one man or woman one vote.That is foundation of any democracy. The tinkering should never alter the core and make a mockery of democracy by pre selected half the candidates.
It's still one man one vote with affirmative action. You're conflating to justify your bias.
Yep. It's just a vote for a group rather than an individual.
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Democracy dies in deception. Rigged elections. for once let us not kid ourselves that Kenya is a democracy. It's not. Until we have free and fair elections starting with nominations, enjoy fruits of poisoned tree. Fix the system first then introduce gender parity.
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Democracy dies in deception. Rigged elections. for once let us not kid ourselves that Kenya is a democracy. It's not. Until we have free and fair elections starting with nominations, enjoy fruits of poisoned tree. Fix the system first then introduce gender parity.
Spoken like ten wise men.
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The heart of democracy is one man or woman one vote.That is foundation of any democracy. The tinkering should never alter the core and make a mockery of democracy by pre selected half the candidates.
It's still one man one vote with affirmative action. You're conflating to justify your bias.
Yep. It's just a vote for a group rather than an individual.
If you give Pundit or any anti-parity ideologue - an external scenario like SA apartheid - or Israel-Palestine inhuman madness - he emphatically accepts dictionary "merit" cannot work. No keejerks about democracy or one-man-one-vote. But raise gender - WOMAN - and he does an ideological somersault - the mental barrier snaps up. When 90% of MPs are male - is that not inequality of the vote? One-man-9-votes.. :o
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Pundit read in Class 6 Civics - democracy is one man one vote - anything else is dictatorship or a sham. It's called conservativism - or nostalgic anti reform - folks who want to conserve the status quo.
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The heart of democracy is one man or woman one vote.That is foundation of any democracy. The tinkering should never alter the core and make a mockery of democracy by pre selected half the candidates.
It's still one man one vote with affirmative action. You're conflating to justify your bias.
I don't think your understand this.The aim of affarmative action is to get where you want..50-50 (100% gender parity) without compromising principles (democracy) or standards.Affarmative action are supposed to give you a little push as we work to remove the structural and systemic constraints stopping women or blacks or transgender or Aboriginal or any minority without compromising standards...the goal cannot be achieved now by ordering 50-50 instant coffee or whatever the ultimate goal is.I mean your ideas were by tried communist and they failed.They didn't create a equal society.They destroyed the society.I am okay with reserving some positions for women like woman mps..small percentage..but ultimately we must remain true to democratic ideal of one man one vote.The rigging and others issues like violence need to be addressed..women eventually will achieve parity like they did in schools.You don't make exams easy to pass so women can pass.That is crazy.
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Pundit read in Class 6 Civics - democracy is one man one vote - anything else is dictatorship or a sham. It's called conservativism - or nostalgic anti reform - folks who want to conserve the status quo.
you're obtuse and you don't even realize it.I keep telling you my thinking cap city is about twice yours but you don't even get it.I understand these more deeply than you do.Your simplistic ideas ought to be dismissed with scorn but I am taking my time to school you.
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Pundit the arbitor of smart - your name literally mean hubris. :) You masqueraded here as genius - 15 years - until I exposed the lack of substance.
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The heart of democracy is one man or woman one vote.That is foundation of any democracy. The tinkering should never alter the core and make a mockery of democracy by pre selected half the candidates.
It's still one man one vote with affirmative action. You're conflating to justify your bias.
I don't think your understand this.The aim of affarmative action is to get where you want..50-50 (100% gender parity) without compromising principles (democracy) or standards.Affarmative action are supposed to give you a little push as we work to remove the structural and systemic constraints stopping women or blacks or transgender or Aboriginal or any minority without compromising standards...the goal cannot be achieved now by ordering 50-50 instant coffee or whatever the ultimate goal is.I mean your ideas were by tried communist and they failed.They didn't create a equal society.They destroyed the society.I am okay with reserving some positions for women like woman mps..small percentage..but ultimately we must remain true to democratic ideal of one man one vote.The rigging and others issues like violence need to be addressed..women eventually will achieve parity like they did in schools.You don't make exams easy to pass so women can pass.That is crazy.
One quick test of the validity or soundness of your views - is present to a jury of your peers for review - how many hereon this thread agree with you?
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The heart of democracy is one man or woman one vote.That is foundation of any democracy. The tinkering should never alter the core and make a mockery of democracy by pre selected half the candidates.
It's still one man one vote with affirmative action. You're conflating to justify your bias.
I don't think your understand this.The aim of affarmative action is to get where you want..50-50 (100% gender parity) without compromising principles (democracy) or standards.Affarmative action are supposed to give you a little push as we work to remove the structural and systemic constraints stopping women or blacks or transgender or Aboriginal or any minority without compromising standards...the goal cannot be achieved now by ordering 50-50 instant coffee or whatever the ultimate goal is.I mean your ideas were by tried communist and they failed.They didn't create a equal society.They destroyed the society.I am okay with reserving some positions for women like woman mps..small percentage..but ultimately we must remain true to democratic ideal of one man one vote.The rigging and others issues like violence need to be addressed..women eventually will achieve parity like they did in schools.You don't make exams easy to pass so women can pass.That is crazy.
One quick test of the validity or soundness of your views - is present to a jury of your peers for review - how many hereon this thread agree with you?
You now want a vote.So you want democracy to choose whose idea is better...about we go 50-50 for gender parity
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The heart of democracy is one man or woman one vote.That is foundation of any democracy. The tinkering should never alter the core and make a mockery of democracy by pre selected half the candidates.
It's still one man one vote with affirmative action. You're conflating to justify your bias.
I don't think your understand this.The aim of affarmative action is to get where you want..50-50 (100% gender parity) without compromising principles (democracy) or standards.Affarmative action are supposed to give you a little push as we work to remove the structural and systemic constraints stopping women or blacks or transgender or Aboriginal or any minority without compromising standards...the goal cannot be achieved now by ordering 50-50 instant coffee or whatever the ultimate goal is.I mean your ideas were by tried communist and they failed.They didn't create a equal society.They destroyed the society.I am okay with reserving some positions for women like woman mps..small percentage..but ultimately we must remain true to democratic ideal of one man one vote.The rigging and others issues like violence need to be addressed..women eventually will achieve parity like they did in schools.You don't make exams easy to pass so women can pass.That is crazy.
One quick test of the validity or soundness of your views - is present to a jury of your peers for review - how many hereon this thread agree with you?
You now want a vote.So you want democracy to choose whose idea is better...about we go 50-50 for gender parity
Unlike the troublesome Patriarchal Democracy this board has some modicum of merit. Even the token 1/3 Quota the men have refused to implement was sanctioned by popular suffrage.
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30% is aspirational..very ambitious...we need to aim for it before 50-50.The Kenyan society is changing.Look at education..we have achieved gender parity in both enrollment and performance. Women are also nearly getting there in job market. Matter of time before women in political leadership rises. Ruto may give Waiguru the running mate and we may have women president before say USA.
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30% is aspirational..very ambitious...we need to aim for it before 50-50.The Kenyan society is changing.Look at education..we have achieved gender parity in both enrollment and performance. Women are also nearly getting there in job market. Matter of time before women in political leadership rises. Ruto may give Waiguru the running mate and we may have women president before say USA.
Picking Waiguru is a hanging fruit for Ruto - the ladies would line up - regardless of the stench in that combo. It's that important to us. Education has happened due to lowering the bar - literally - women join college at lower cluster. The same thing you oppose in Parliament. 1/3 aspiration is not timeless - SCORK set it at 5 years from promulgation - we should have had it yesterday and Duale's pretend effort fools noone.
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I am talking basic education.At higher education the bar was lowered slightly.You want the bar basically dropped so low any one can jump over it.Women leadership will surely catch up with men
...matter of time..in any case if you can't get 30% what makes you think 50% is achievable now.One day women will achieve parity in true democracy that respect one man or woman one vote.We need to adopt Uganda approach who've been here longer ..where gender compliance is measured and tracked...in all gov institutions..and certificate issued annaully.That is the start of knowing the depth of problem m
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Robina...the experience of counties n Senate nomination dominated by women undeserving and unqualified should tell you that idea won't work.Those women contribute nothing and are regularly ignored.They are just decorations.We need women of substance.Not just women.Women who've met the bar set by the vote.
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Robina...the experience of counties n Senate nomination dominated by women undeserving and unqualified should tell you that idea won't work.Those women contribute nothing and are regularly ignored.They are just decorations.We need women of substance.Not just women.Women who've met the bar set by the vote.
The dicy "merit" argument again just rephrased. A non-starter. Party Lists - MMPR - with transparent rules say like CS or judge appointment std - degree, integrity, DCI, etc clearance. Fix the rules - don't throw away the baby with the bath water.
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I am talking basic education.At higher education the bar was lowered slightly.You want the bar basically dropped so low any one can jump over it.Women leadership will surely catch up with men
...matter of time..in any case if you can't get 30% what makes you think 50% is achievable now.One day women will achieve parity in true democracy that respect one man or woman one vote.We need to adopt Uganda approach who've been here longer ..where gender compliance is measured and tracked...in all gov institutions..and certificate issued annaully.That is the start of knowing the depth of problem m
Basic education, Uganda, Rwanda, the UK - any of the examples you pick would have been aided by AFFIRMATIVE ACTION. The UK has nomination party lists - the parties meet a Quota in the primaries - unlike the corrupt, violent madness you have in Kenya. Basic education - you have Kibaki mandatory FPE enforced by chiefs, FGM criminalized and efficiently policed - the big, long firm GoK hand is at the center of it. That same hand is needed now in Parliament.
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Robina...the experience of counties n Senate nomination dominated by women undeserving and unqualified should tell you that idea won't work.Those women contribute nothing and are regularly ignored.They are just decorations.We need women of substance.Not just women.Women who've met the bar set by the vote.
RVP, you should know better.
Substance? Their job is to look pretty and women do that better than men.
The point of having diversity is to foster broader representation and has little to do with substance. Much like actors acting.
If you're into right wing patriarchy than I allude you to the bible and the tower of babel. Man tried to build the tallest ivory tower to reach God and God went angry. Crushed it and scattered everyone with different languages so it can't happen. The same way God created Adam & Eve to lay dominion over other species, who are we to deny representation?