Author Topic: Ruto in me too coalition  (Read 5379 times)

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2021, 06:56:50 PM »
High court can toss it up - and it goes to appeal court - another 5 bench - will hear - and will of course keep the injunction - otherwise it will be moot.
The 4 who run to supreme court - were dismissed for jumping the gun - not on the merit of the case.

BBI is dead as dodo. The high court killed it by INJUNCTION.

Hope springs eternal. All the 8* cases were merged - then once constitutional bench toss them out - BBI will be in time for 2022 combo.

Anyway string of anti-BBI cases have been tossed out one after the other: Aukot, Gusii lady pro Moraa Gesicho, etc.

Court has injuncted Uhuru from signing BBI into law or IEBC from conducting referendum. After parliament is done - the court take over - we are in high court - then we go court of appeal - then we go to supreme court in year 2024 :) :)
Pundit have the courts killed BBI yet? I heard there is an MP session next week.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2021, 07:02:50 PM »
Weighty Isssues - BBI is KAPUT
http://kenyalaw.org/caselaw/cases/view/207503/
5. The Consolidated Petitions as we understand them raise, inter alia, the following issues:

a. Whether the legal and judicial doctrines of the “Basic Structure” of a Constitution, the doctrines of “Constitutional entrenchment clauses” “Un-amendable Constitutional Provisions”, “Unconstitutional constitutional amendments” “essential features” “supra-constitutional laws” in a Constitution, and the implied limitations of the amendment power in a constitution are applicable in the Republic of Kenya;

b. If the legal and judicial doctrines described in (a) above are applicable in Kenya, whether they apply to limit the amendability of Chapter ONE on Sovereignty of the People and Supremacy of the Constitution, Chapter TWO on the Republic, Chapter FOUR on the Bill of Rights, Chapter NINE on the Executive and Chapter TEN on the Judiciary and the provisions therein either under Article 256 by Parliament or through popular initiative under Article 257 of the Constitution;

c. Whether in the process of formulating the Constitutional Amendment Bill, the provisions of Articles 27 and 47 of the Constitution as read with Section 4 of the Fair Administrative Action Act were adhered to;

d. Whether the entire BBI process culminating with the launch of the Constitutional Amendment Bill was undertaken constitutionally having regard to Articles 1, 2, 3, 10, 255 and 257 of the Constitution;

e. Whether the Constitutional Amendment Bill is a Popular initiative as envisaged under Article 257 of the Constitution and if not, whether the process chosen to enact the constitutional amendment is fundamentally flawed and constitutionally infirm;

f. Whether at the time of launch of the Constitutional Amendment Bill and the collection of endorsement signatures, there was a legislation governing the collection, presentation, and verification signatures or a legal framework or administrative structure to govern the conduct of referenda in the Country, and whether the absence of such legal and administrative framework is fatal for the Constitutional Amendment Bill under consideration;

g. Whether the 3rd Respondent, the Independent Electoral and Boundaries Commission (the Commission), and the County Assemblies can exercise their powers under Article 257 of the Constitution to receive, verify and approve the Constitutional Amendment Bill in the prevailing circumstances;

h. Whether, by dint of Article 257 (5) and (7) of the Constitution, the County Assemblies and Parliament have the power to alter and or improve the contents of the Constitutional Amendment Bill so as to incorporate divergent views raised through public participation;

i. Whether Article 257(10) requires all the specific proposed amendments to the Constitution to be submitted as separate and distinct referendum questions to the people in the referendum ballot paper;

j. Whether the constitutional edict does empower the National Executive or any State organ, as opposed to Parliament, to pursue or initiate any amendment to the Constitution without petitioning Parliament;

k. Whether in a popular initiative to amend the Constitution, the National Executive may use public resources, including deploying public and State officers to either collect signatures or popularize any intended amendments to the Constitution;

l. Whether the intended constitutional amendment processes are in conformity with the National Values in Article 10 of the Constitution;

m. Whether the Second Schedule to the Constitutional Amendment Bill in so far as it purports to set seventy as the number of constituencies; predetermine the allocation of the said constituencies; and direct the Commission in so far as the function of constituency delimitation is concerned, is unconstitutional and/or illegal and/or irregular;

n. Whether the Steering Committee on the Implementation of the Building Bridges to a United Kenya Taskforce Report is an unlawful entity under the Laws of Kenya and whether it has locus standi in promoting constitutional changes pursuant to Article 257 of the Constitution;

o. Whether the current Parliament has been declared unconstitutional by the Chief Justice and whether it can it can consider the Constitutional Amendment Bill if approved by the County Assemblies;

p. Whether the Commission is legally constituted to carry out the referendum;

q. Whether there has been public participation in the constitutional amendment process.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2021, 07:32:12 PM »
If BBI were dead Sacred flowergirls and Kingis would warm up to Ruto. Because Raila or Uhuru would have nothing for them. There would also be some effort to fix gender.

What I see once high court throws out the constitutional case - CoA and SCORK will equally toss them out. In the meantime they will refuse to entertain the injunction.

High court can toss it up - and it goes to appeal court - another 5 bench - will hear - and will of course keep the injunction - otherwise it will be moot.
The 4 who run to supreme court - were dismissed for jumping the gun - not on the merit of the case.

BBI is dead as dodo. The high court killed it by INJUNCTION.

Hope springs eternal. All the 8* cases were merged - then once constitutional bench toss them out - BBI will be in time for 2022 combo.

Anyway string of anti-BBI cases have been tossed out one after the other: Aukot, Gusii lady pro Moraa Gesicho, etc.

Court has injuncted Uhuru from signing BBI into law or IEBC from conducting referendum. After parliament is done - the court take over - we are in high court - then we go court of appeal - then we go to supreme court in year 2024 :) :)
Pundit have the courts killed BBI yet? I heard there is an MP session next week.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2021, 07:37:58 PM »
You're incorrigible. Without injuncting BBI - what would be the purpose of entertaining the case in superior case. If IEBC hold referendum or Uhuru sign it - it would be academic to rule on it.

Look here - nobody will die if BBI is not passed - before these many issues are sorted. Maybe Raila will die from frustration. Raila think judiciary will just play his ball :) gotten used to slavery in his backyard. Try justifying to court that you need BBI for your 2022 Politics :) :) :)

BBI is dead. Those issues are so novel - and many - high court - will unlikely throw all of them out. I don't expect judgement on this anytime soon. These are many weight issues.

Worse case - it goes to appeal court - that is another six months to one year for them. That is already mid 2022.

And Supreme court will hear it in 2023.

Don't think changing constitution is easy. The clamour to get 2010 started in 1990s if not 1980s - and there were MANY BBIS :) that failed.

AND PRAY JUDICIARY DOESNT DECIDE THEY DONT LIKE BBI for Judicial Interference :) - who wants constitutional OMBUSDMAN - in addition to JSC :)

If BBI were dead Sacred flowergirls and Kingis would warm up to Ruto. Because Raila or Uhuru would have nothing for them. There would also be some effort to fix gender.

What I see once high court throws out the constitutional case - CoA and SCORK will equally toss them out. In the meantime they will refuse to entertain the injunction.

High court can toss it up - and it goes to appeal court - another 5 bench - will hear - and will of course keep the injunction - otherwise it will be moot.
The 4 who run to supreme court - were dismissed for jumping the gun - not on the merit of the case.

BBI is dead as dodo. The high court killed it by INJUNCTION.

Hope springs eternal. All the 8* cases were merged - then once constitutional bench toss them out - BBI will be in time for 2022 combo.

Anyway string of anti-BBI cases have been tossed out one after the other: Aukot, Gusii lady pro Moraa Gesicho, etc.

Court has injuncted Uhuru from signing BBI into law or IEBC from conducting referendum. After parliament is done - the court take over - we are in high court - then we go court of appeal - then we go to supreme court in year 2024 :) :)
Pundit have the courts killed BBI yet? I heard there is an MP session next week.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2021, 07:51:22 PM »
Pundit we shall see soon. You been singing BBI is illegal for 3 years. But cases get tossed left & right by Weldon Korir, et al.

Ndii and your other Ruto bozos claim IEBC has no quorum yet it been holding by-elections all over. It more likely the entirety (BBI+elections) will be postponed until the petitions are disposed - or both are held as hearing continues and validity determined later.

Referendum and/or election results can be overturned. You seem to take a single injunction as the gospel. Nope it isn't.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2021, 08:07:01 PM »
The issue here is simple. There are 17 WEIGHTY ISSUES the court has found to have merit for full hearing.  And for that purpose it injuncted - IEBC and President.

I don't see them lifting those injunction - because the referendum will cost a lot of PUBLIC (NOT RAILA OR UHURU) money - and if they rule eventually that process was violated or there was no law to guide it - it would be huge loss.

Now what will Raila and Robina tell the court - that they need BBI for what? - for 2022 election posturing? What exactly is the big urgency here. IF BBI WAS URGENT AND SERIOUS - you would have started in 2018 - knowing the court can injunct it on application :) :) - Uhuru is playing somebody :)

Now the Court of Appeal and Supreme Court will enforce the same injunction -17 WEIGHTY ISSUES!!

BBI is dead dead as dodo.

Constitution is NOT easy to change. 2010 took the 2008 war.

We are already on May :) - and Raila expect us to be on referendum on June - well now August . The so called 70 constitutuncies are NOT happening. What do you sell to Mt Kenya :) - when 1 yr to election is likely to pass without BBI :)

Let me tell in 1990s - Moi formed so many commissions and comittees..and BBI. Constitution was never overhauled. Some like Ghai commission died with 2002 election. Kibaki tried and failed until 2007 war.


Before  2010 it was easy  for parliament to change constitution - this one is almost impossible.

Pundit we shall see soon. You been singing BBI is illegal for 3 years. But cases get tossed left & right by Weldon Korir, et al.

Ndii and your other Ruto bozos claim IEBC has no quorum yet it been holding by-elections all over. It more likely the entirety (BBI+elections) will be postponed until the petitions are disposed - or both are held as hearing continues and validity determined later.

Referendum and/or election results can be overturned. You seem to take a single injunction as the gospel. Nope it isn't.

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2021, 08:31:31 PM »
Those "weighty issues" are very frivolous so they been merged into one. Most of them were already dismissed earlier - e.g. "budget/money is being wasted" by Aukot & Gesicho was already dismissed by Weldon Korir. Without a hearing :) 3rd-way alliance had to kick out Aukot to apply as new party.

Ndii nonsense about "basic structure" - is the most ridiculous. Kenyans in referendum can change any clause including deleting the BoR itself. Law is made for man.

Now about mere injunction that has you so excited: as Aug 22 nears the circumstances will change. So CoA or SCORK will not entertain injunction or postpone both election-BBI. IEBC will argue, for instance, that election-referendum combo will save billions - so the cash wastage argument will work against the petitioners as time lapses. Nothing is cast in stone, tomorrow a new ruling can be issued.

Of course yours and Ruto's desperation is plain as sunshine.

The issue here is simple. There are 17 WEIGHTY ISSUES the court has found to have merit for full hearing.  And for that purpose it injuncted - IEBC and President.

I don't see them lifting those injunction - because the referendum will cost a lot of PUBLIC (NOT RAILA OR UHURU) money - and if they rule eventually that process was violated or there was no law to guide it - it would be huge loss.

Now what will Raila and Robina tell the court - that they need BBI for what? - for 2022 election posturing? What exactly is the big urgency here. IF BBI WAS URGENT AND SERIOUS - you would have started in 2018 - knowing the court can injunct it on application :) :) - Uhuru is playing somebody :)

Now the Court of Appeal and Supreme Court will enforce the same injunction -17 WEIGHTY ISSUES!!

BBI is dead dead as dodo.

Constitution is NOT easy to change. 2010 took the 2008 war.

We are already on May :) - and Raila expect us to be on referendum on June - well now August . The so called 70 constitutuncies are NOT happening. What do you sell to Mt Kenya :) - when 1 yr to election is likely to pass without BBI :)

Let me tell in 1990s - Moi formed so many commissions and comittees..and BBI. Constitution was never overhauled. Some like Ghai commission died with 2002 election. Kibaki tried and failed until 2007 war.


Before  2010 it was easy  for parliament to change constitution - this one is almost impossible.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline Nefertiti

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2021, 08:38:09 PM »
Pundit Ruto should just re-launch his No Linda-Katiba - with Ndii & Karua :D - that a safer bet than hanging in court corridors like anti-Uhuruto Ndumbis & NGOs in 2012. Courts cannot determine an obviously political matter.
I desire to go to hell and not to heaven. In the former place I shall enjoy the company of popes, kings, and princes, while in the latter are only beggars, monks, and apostles. ~ Niccolo Machiavelli on his deathbed, June 1527

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2021, 08:38:50 PM »
Actually Ndii is the most serious of all the Issues - which is why got ranked at the top.
My understanding of the basic structure and BBI goes to genesis of old constitution.

Can you MULTILATE the constitution through constitutional amendment so much it becomes a mongrel?

What is difference btw BBI referendum (amendment) and 2010 referendum (Overhaul)

Amendment is INCREMENTAL changes..not radical overhaul of the constitution. This is where the OXFORD dictionary will help you.

Yes constitution protect certain amendment unless through a referendum...is that sufficient protection? Can you allow citizens to make constitution unreasonable through amendment?

For example - BBI assign 70 const - and yet same constitution give IEBC that job? How do you resolve such?

At the minumum there are things that should NOT be amendable unless by overhauling.

And this is where Judiciary will ask parliament to CREATE REFERENDUM LAW to guide the ammendment - because right now it FREE FOR ALL - constitution provide the guidelines but parliament are suppose to provide the meat.

BIG PROBLEM - parliament as it is has been found by the same court to be unconstitutional :) without 2/3 gender rule ; and is subject to court proceedings for it's disbandment. The president was suppose to disband it. Can such parliament mid-wife a constitution ;)

WEIGHTY ISSUES.

Remember Courts have ruled more than 100 Laws passed by parliament illegal for not involving Senate......so courts have wide latitude.

Finally - yes if BBI will be held in 2022 together with election and as separate issues  [many ballots] like Ruto recommended - I think nobody will find that unreasonable.


Those "weighty issues" are very frivolous so they been merged into one. Most of them were already dismissed earlier - e.g. "budget/money is being wasted" by Aukot & Gesicho was already dismissed by Weldon Korir. Without a hearing :) 3rd-way alliance had to kick out Aukot to apply as new party.

Ndii nonsense about "basic structure" - is the most ridiculous. Kenyans in referendum can change any clause including deleting the BoR itself. Law is made for man.

Now about mere injunction that has you so excited: as Aug 22 nears the circumstances will change. So CoA or SCORK will not entertain injunction or postpone both election-BBI. IEBC will argue, for instance, that election-referendum combo will save billions - so the cash wastage argument will work against the petitioners as time lapses. Nothing is cast in stone, tomorrow a new ruling can be issued.

Of course yours and Ruto's desperation is plain as sunshine.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Ruto in me too coalition
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2021, 08:47:25 PM »
Ruto is hibernating - saving energy - for the real deal in 2022 - knowing there is no point taking Uhuru head on - just buy time. Ruto has topnotch intelligence - and of course he is intelligent.

The court is part of buying time....lame duck become even more lame.

Expect more BBI cases...you know a high court in Bomet can go rogue and declare BBI illegal ex-parte :) if I apply to it...and all you can do is take him to JSC :) like that Luo judge in Meru recently did.

This was Moi era tactic - get some judge in Mombasa or Malindi to issue court order ex-parte :)

Pundit Ruto should just re-launch his No Linda-Katiba - with Ndii & Karua :D - that a safer bet than hanging in court corridors like anti-Uhuruto Ndumbis & NGOs in 2012. Courts cannot determine an obviously political matter.