Where's Vooke and Bittertruth now?

[Kababe]

Also, nuffsed and mya, just to add, Jesus told his disciples when they could not stay awake and pray with him in St. Mathew 26:41 "Watch and pray lest ye fall into temptation. The SPIRIT is willing, but the flesh is weak". Here you can see that Christ identified the faculty of the will with the Spirit and not with the body. He showed that while united in man, they are two distinct things, the spirit and the flesh, not just a monolithic "living soul" referring to a man that is alive. In the same way he speaks of the ability to kill the body but NOT the soul. Although God can destroy BOTH in Gehenna. It is clear that Jesus is aware that man is made up of two distinct things, a spirit and a physical body. These two things are not simply one undifferentiated thing called "a soul" as nuff Sed seems to belief. Just like is clear in Genesis, man is the union of a spirit which is made immediately by God and a body which is formed by God from the matter of the physical world. Hence, this is quite clear in the Bible:

1) man is made up of two different things, spirit and matter
2) The faculty of the will is a faculty that belongs to the spirit and not to the body
3) No man can kill a soul, yet we known that men can kill other men. Nuff sed's making "man" the equivalent of a "soul" cannot be right since Jesus says we cannot kill a soul. The Bible makes clear that we should not kill others but tells us we have no ability to kill their souls. This means their souls are not as mortal as their bodies which we can destroy.
4) God destroys the soul, "in Gehena", not at death.
5) He implies that both body and soul are to partake of the eternal punishment, not just one without the other.

Hence, if souls are not killed by men, and are "destroyed" by God himself in Gehenna, not at the death of the body, where does the belief in soul sleep come in?

[TheDayTheDollarDies]

So you guys are still debating Nuff Sed about this issue...I lost track of the debate once he refused to acknowledge what the bible said in the book of Samuel.

[Nuff Sed]

Kadude,
Welcome aboard! Are you referring to I Sam 28 where Saul goes to visit a medium? That was Satan disguised as Samuel.

Leviticus 19
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:27
"Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless.

And the verdict is telling.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14
Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. (NIV)

The Bible mentions many things that are non-kosher (for example, Amnon's rape of his sister, or the Canaanites' worship of Baal and Ashteroth/Isis/Ishtar/Easter). We cannot follow them as believers or use them as a basis of theology. If Samuel's soul was alive and conscious, there would have been no need for Saul to go through a medium, a spiritualist which God warned His people against. Notice that God comes to a strong verdict against Saul and mentions the medium's incident as one of the reasons Saul was killed.

[Kababe]

Kadude,
Welcome aboard! Are you referring to I Sam 28 where Saul goes to visit a medium? That was Satan disguised as Samuel.

Leviticus 19
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:27
"Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless.

And the verdict is telling.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14
Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. (NIV)

The Bible mentions many things that are non-kosher (for example, Amnon's rape of his sister, or the Canaanites' worship of Baal and Ashteroth/Isis/Ishtar/Easter). We cannot follow them as believers or use them as a basis of theology. If Samuel's soul was alive and conscious, there would have been no need for Saul to go through a medium, a spiritualist which God warned His people against. Notice that God comes to a strong verdict against Saul and mentions the medium's incident as one of the reasons Saul was killed.

The problem was not that the Bible records non-kosher events, the problem was that the Bible itself recorded that it WAS Samuel. That witch did not write scripture, so why would the scriptural author under the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit confuse a demon with the Prophet Samuel and then write this confusion into scripture? ???

[bittertruth]

Kadude,
Welcome aboard! Are you referring to I Sam 28 where Saul goes to visit a medium? That was Satan disguised as Samuel.

Leviticus 19
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:27
"Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."

Deuteronomy 18:10-13
Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless.

And the verdict is telling.

1 Chronicles 10:13-14
Saul died because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance, and did not inquire of the LORD. So the LORD put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David son of Jesse. (NIV)

The Bible mentions many things that are non-kosher (for example, Amnon's rape of his sister, or the Canaanites' worship of Baal and Ashteroth/Isis/Ishtar/Easter). We cannot follow them as believers or use them as a basis of theology. If Samuel's soul was alive and conscious, there would have been no need for Saul to go through a medium, a spiritualist which God warned His people against. Notice that God comes to a strong verdict against Saul and mentions the medium's incident as one of the reasons Saul was killed.

Nuff Sed I beg to differ again here. It was actually Samuels spirit.Samuel 28:15 Samuel said to Saul, "why have you disturbed me by bringing me up.
If it was actually a demon instead of Samuel it would  have said so. But it actually says Samuel. Also Samuel predicted the fate of Saul and the Isrealite army. I don't think a demon could have done that. 
where is vooke on this?

[Nuff Sed]

Kababe I hear your argument. I wish you backed your statements with scripture. Then we would have the opportunity to read them in context, comparing scripture with scripture, here a little, there a little. Scripture explains itself.

Indeed, there are Bible verses that seem to suggest souls/spirits live after death (for example, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus). However, on closer examination you will discover that the Bible is very consistent. For example, it never uses the word "spirit" to refer to living persons. Its use of the word "soul" to refer to living persons is also consistent with the story of salvation, which is what all the 66 books are about.

You have mentioned two kinds of death. That is indeed true. There is the first death (when people die before Christ returns. In John 11, we see for example Lazarus' death, which Christ referred to as "sleep". Notice that Christ woke Lazarus from the dead, and there is no record anywhere to suggest that Lazarus had a soul which knew Christ would come or that spoke to his grieving sisters Martha and Mary). When His own friend died, knowing that the matter of death had troubled every living person on earth, Christ had the perfect opportunity to tell believers about the afterlife and the existence of a "soul" or "spirit" in the afterlife. So what does He do instead? He says Lazarus "sleepeth" and he is going to wake Him up (to demonstrate that He is the source of life, without Him man dies). Not a mention of Lazarus' dead "soul" and not a mention of his "spirit".

John 11
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Paul uses the same words to refer to the dead in I Thessalonians 4. Again, notice the consistency - no soul or spirit mentioned. Specifically, notice that verse 15 says the living will not hinder the dead from rising to meet Christ. In other words, they had been dead all that time.

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Then there is the Second death referred to in Rev 21.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

We can discuss more about the differences between the first death and the second death and their relationship with the concept of "soul" and "spirit". It also explains Jesus' reference to Him "who can destroy both body and soul" (Matt 10:28).

[Nuff Sed]

BT, Satan and his demons are wiser than men, after all they have been in this business 6,000 odd years. They don't always openly show themselves as the Bible records. It began in Eden when he came "subtly" as a serpent. If he had come as Satan, red in tooth and claw, Eve would have ran away very fast. In the scene recorded in I Sam 28, it is very unlikely that Saul, faced with a situation of life and death, could have taken the medium's word if she had told him,"Well, I see a demon armed with a pitchfork and he is clothed in red." In any case, Saul was seeking to save his life but the diabolical demon led him to death anyway. The context of the verse helps us understand what is really going on.

Do not ignore verse 14.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.

In other words, Saul saw the Samuel he wanted to see although the message wasn't what he wanted to hear. Just because the being seen by the medium spoke, talked and looked like Samuel does not mean it was Samuel. Satan disguised himself (just like Saul did to the woman but was discovered). Satan also speaks the truth at times just like he did in Matthew 4 and (mis)quoted the Bible to Jesus Himself. He had done it before to Eve and succeeded.

[Nuff Sed]

"Most of us have been taught that if a man takes a blow to the head hard enough to knock him out, then he knows nothing. However, if he is hit hard enough to kill him, then he knows everything! Strange. Does a dead man really know more than a living one? Not according to David; "In that very day his thoughts perish" (Psalms 146:4), and the other passages listed in the previous question and answer."

This website deals extensively with the subject of soul, spirit and what happens when we die. The beauty of it is that the writer does not just throw things but backs his statements with scripture unlike some of what we have seen here. We need not reinvent the wheel.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/happens-death.html

[Kababe]

Nuffsed, why are you implying that others "back up" their claims with scripture but the people on this discussion don't?

Is this not a discussion of scripture? And how many scriptures have been cited to you already, at nipate and here?

Also, nuffsed and mya, just to add, Jesus told his disciples when they could not stay awake and pray with him in St. Mathew 26:41 "Watch and pray lest ye fall into temptation. The SPIRIT is willing, but the flesh is weak". Here you can see that Christ identified the faculty of the will with the Spirit and not with the body. He showed that while united in man, they are two distinct things, the spirit and the flesh, not just a monolithic "living soul" referring to a man that is alive. In the same way he speaks of the ability to kill the body but NOT the soul. Although God can destroy BOTH in Gehenna. It is clear that Jesus is aware that man is made up of two distinct things, a spirit and a physical body. These two things are not simply one undifferentiated thing called "a soul" as nuff Sed seems to belief. Just like is clear in Genesis, man is the union of a spirit which is made immediately by God and a body which is formed by God from the matter of the physical world. Hence, this is quite clear in the Bible:

1) man is made up of two different things, spirit and matter
2) The faculty of the will is a faculty that belongs to the spirit and not to the body
3) No man can kill a soul, yet we known that men can kill other men. Nuff sed's making "man" the equivalent of a "soul" cannot be right since Jesus says we cannot kill a soul. The Bible makes clear that we should not kill others but tells us we have no ability to kill their souls. This means their souls are not as mortal as their bodies which we can destroy.
4) God destroys the soul, "in Gehena", not at death.
5) He implies that both body and soul are to partake of the eternal punishment, not just one without the other.

Hence, if souls are not killed by men, and are "destroyed" by God himself in Gehenna, not at the death of the body, where does the belief in soul sleep come in?

As for Samuel, Here is the passage:

You are saying that this was NOT Samuel speaking but a demon.....WHY does the Bible say that it is Samuel? Do you think the writer of 1st Samuel made a mistake? Your position is basically claiming that the Bible is lying here, don't you see that?

Also, how does a demon know God's plans in advance and what would be the goal of that demon in telling Samuel the TRUTH? ???

[mya88]

Nuff Sedd

You are being disingenous here. You cannot pick and choose scripture to fit your own logic. If you want context, you have to read the whole scripture....there is nowhere in 1Sam 28 where the person Saul saw is refered to as demon, you came up with that because as you claim "Saul percieved it him to be Samuel." You ignore that Jesus himself did appear to demons and they sometimes use his name to do thier works. Anywhere further down, the scripture tells you:

" 16Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

 17And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:

 18Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

 19Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. "

It clearly says Samuel spoke.......who wrote those scriptures and anyway, How can the Lord say all these things through the demons and they come to pass?

Ooops I see kababe has already attached the verses.

[Nuff Sed]

Kababe/Mya88,
There are numerous circumstances where the Bible records people swindling, betraying and backstabbing each other thinking completely different things from the reality. In Joshua 9, for example, Israel made peace with the Gibeonites and the Bible records that the people came from far and had moulded bread. The reality was different. In another case, Amnon David's son was sick but his intention was to rape his sister.

2 Sam 13.
2 And Amnon was so vexed, that he fell sick for his sister Tamar; for she was a virgin; and Amnon thought it hard for him to do anything to her.
3 But Amnon had a friend, whose name was Jonadab, the son of Shimeah David's brother: and Jonadab was a very subtil man.

That is why reading in context is crucial in understanding text, any text. Vooke has repeatedly rejected contextual reading. Any verse that is hard to understand can be unlocked by reading contextually comparing the verse with the verses before it, understanding the historical context, the writer's background, the chapter, book and indeed the whole Bible. That is context.

The devil has spoken truth (half-truth to be precise) and out of context. He used that to beguile Adam and Eve and attempted to use it on Christ (Matthew 4, Luke 4). Jesus warns believers to beware of the devil's cunning (Matt 24:24) which will include imitating Christ Himself. John warns us of the same thing, that the devil will in these last days even command fire out of heaven.

Rev 13
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

If Satan could disguise himself into a snake in Eden, is it too hard for him to disguise himself as Samuel and cheat the king of Israel? That website tackles the questions you ask, very biblically. See:

Communication with the Spirit World

    Can the dead communicate with the living?
    Answer: No (Ecclesiastes 3:22; 9:5-6, Job 7:9-10; 14:21; 16:22, 2 Samuel 12:18,23).

    Where does the communication come from?
    Answer: The adversary (2 Thessalonians 2:9, 1 Timothy 4:1, Revelation 16:14, 2 Corinthians 11:13-15). In Genesis 3:1 is recorded the adversary's first communications with humans. This is the record of the first Spirit Medium, speaking through the snake or serpent in the garden of Eden. In Genesis 3:3 is recorded the serpent's first lie to man, "Ye shall not surely die." His goal to perpetuate this lie has been a great success (2 Corinthians 11:3).

    What does the scripture say about spiritualism?
    Answer: It's an abomination to God (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 19:26,31; 20:6,27, Deuteronomy 18:10-12, Numbers 24:1, Malachi 3:5, Galatians 5:21, Matthew 24:24, Jeremiah 27:9-10, Micah 5:12, 2 Kings 17:17; 21:6; 23:24, Daniel 1:20, 1 Samuel 15:23; 28:3, 2 Chronicles 33:6, Isaiah 2:6; 47:12-15, Acts 8:9-11; 13:8-10; 16:16-18; 19:19, Revelation 21:8; 22:14-15). Saul died because of his transgressions against the Lord and because he asked counsel of the spiritualist at Endor (1 Chronicles 10:13). Notice in the story of Saul trying to contact the late Samuel (1 Samuel 28:6-17), it always refers to Samuel as being brought up. If Samuel was up in Heaven, wouldn't it say, Samuel came down?

[Kababe]

Yes, mya, that's the thing. Nuff is reading these scriptures with soul-sleep already presumed as established so that she ends up supplementing scripture with other facts, in this case: "It's not Samuel, it's a demon." Even though the BIBLE itself is saying it WAS Samuel.

I also pointed out to her the verse in NEW Testament at the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. Elijah went to Heaven with his body, so he doesn't matter in this context. But MOSES died and was buried by God himself in a place nobody saw. Nuff claimed that Moses was already resurrected yet this "fact" of Moses' resurrection is not given anywhere in the Bible. As far as we know, Moses died and God himself buried him, he wasn't resurrected anywhere, at least I've never heard that belief anywhere.

Lastly, Terminator pointed out the verse in Peter where Peter says that Jesus AFTER dying, went and preached to the imprisoned spirits who were had been disobedient during Noah's time. Nuff Sed also claimed that these spirits were demons and not human souls. Now, why would Jesus go to preach to demons who are already DAMNED? Also, WHO in the Bible was disobedient during Noah's time and the flood? Was it not human beings? Nuff ignores this and claims it was demons.

I think Nuff sed is just clinging to her beliefs and rewriting scripture in the places where it plainly contradicts her beliefs. And then calling this rewriting process "Context".

[mya88]

Nuff Sedd

When it says brought up, I think its the spirit of Samuel...Also God cannot send Satan to deliver a message. Samuel  or the spirit/ soul (I will not belabor to differentiate the two) told Saul, the Kingdom would be taken from him and given to David....and it came to pass that is why I do not believe it was the Demon as you purport without trying to complicate matters.

[mya88]

Yes, mya, that's the thing. Nuff is reading these scriptures with soul-sleep already presumed as established so that she ends up supplementing scripture with other facts, in this case: "It's not Samuel, it's a demon." Even though the BIBLE itself is saying it WAS Samuel.

I also pointed out to her the verse in NEW Testament at the Transfiguration on Mt. Tabor when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus. Elijah went to Heaven with his body, so he doesn't matter in this context. But MOSES died and was buried by God himself in a place nobody saw. Nuff claimed that Moses was already resurrected yet this "fact" of Moses' resurrection is not given anywhere in the Bible. As far as we know, Moses died and God himself buried him, he wasn't resurrected anywhere, at least I've never heard that belief anywhere.

Lastly, Terminator pointed out the verse in Peter where Peter says that Jesus AFTER dying, went and preached to the imprisoned spirits who were had been disobedient during Noah's time. Nuff Sed also claimed that these spirits were demons and not human souls. Now, why would Jesus go to preach to demons who are already DAMNED? Also, WHO in the Bible was disobedient during Noah's time and the flood? Was it not human beings? Nuff ignores this and claims it was demons.

I think Nuff sed is just clinging to her beliefs and rewriting scripture in the places where it plainly contradicts her beliefs. And then calling this rewriting process "Context".

Looooooool ati soul sleep....I never was interested in that topic at Toop, but maybe when I get time I will revisit it. This is dangerous for nuff to start making things up as she goes by to suit her theological pedagogy, and speak with such strong convictions.........  we may have to agree to disagree here.

[Kababe]

Nuff sed, you keep saying that the Bible records bad things, THAT is not the issue.

The issue is NOT that the Bible records what Saul did, going to a witch to consult a dead person; the Bible records the sins of Adam, mankind, Israelites, even the sins of the patriachs, prophets and Apostles themselves are recorded. THAT is not the issue!

The issue is that the Bible says "SAMUEL said".  It does not say "THE DEMON said". The only way your interpretation could be true is if we accept that either it was the Witch who wrote the book of 1st Samuel or that the person who wrote that book wrote a plain LIE in scripture and the Holy Spirit allowed it.

Explain Why the Bible says "Samuel said" and not "The Demon said"

[Nuff Sed]

Saul saw what he wanted to see, heard what he wanted to hear. I Sam 28 records the devil using a king's desperation to sow seeds of dead men speaking to living men (how strange). I have posted the verses that expose the deception in that passage. Reading in context helps.

[Kababe]

Saul saw what he wanted to see, heard what he wanted to hear. I Sam 28 records the devil using a king's desperation to sow seeds of dead men speaking to living men (how strange). I have posted the verses that expose the deception in that passage. Reading in context helps.

But we are not arguing about what Saul saw, heard, thought or whatever. We are talking about what THE SCRIPTURE itself says. Again, WHY does the Bible say: SAMUEL said....and yet according to you, it was not Samuel but a demon. When the sacred author wrote down this phrase: Samuel said....do you think he made a mistake? Should he not have written: THE DEMON said....?????

We all understand that both the witch and Saul could be deceived, but how could the SCRIPTURE AUTHOR also be deceived?? That's the issue.

[Nuff Sed]

Mya88,

By the time Saul was speaking to the so-called Samuel, God had rejected him and Samuel had refused to see him. Do not marvel, Satan knows the Bible and has been (ab)using it for more than 6,000 years. He misquoted it in front of Jesus in Matthew 4. Read the chapter and you will see that. God did not need to send Satan to Saul and He did not. Satan sent himself and the repercussions are here with us - not only the defeat of Saul/Israel in war but also the amazingly successful repeat of the first deception in Eden. People misapply I Sam 28 in that regard. Gen 3: "Did God really say..."

[Nuff Sed]

I have quoted to you how the Bible also records that Amnon was ill. Reading further along we realize he only wanted to rape his sister, although the Bible records he was ill. I do not fault the Bible passage. I fault reading out of context.

Saul saw what he wanted to see, heard what he wanted to hear. I Sam 28 records the devil using a king's desperation to sow seeds of dead men speaking to living men (how strange). I have posted the verses that expose the deception in that passage. Reading in context helps.

But we are not arguing about what Saul saw, heard, thought or whatever. We are talking about what THE SCRIPTURE itself says. Again, WHY does the Bible say: SAMUEL said....and yet according to you, it was not Samuel but a demon. When the sacred author wrote down this phrase: Samuel said....do you think he made a mistake? Should he not have written: THE DEMON said....?????

[Nuff Sed]

Nuff sed, you keep saying that the Bible records bad things, THAT is not the issue.

The issue is NOT that the Bible records what Saul did, going to a witch to consult a dead person; the Bible records the sins of Adam, mankind, Israelites, even the sins of the patriachs, prophets and Apostles themselves are recorded. THAT is not the issue!

The issue is that the Bible says "SAMUEL said".  It does not say "THE DEMON said". The only way your interpretation could be true is if we accept that either it was the Witch who wrote the book of 1st Samuel or that the person who wrote that book wrote a plain LIE in scripture and the Holy Spirit allowed it.

Explain Why the Bible says "Samuel said" and not "The Demon said"

i do not see how this becomes a problem if you read in context.