The Vote Tallying Case Simplified

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

The issue is before court of appeal. I think matters presidential - the returning officer is clearly chebukati - he is the one to tally up the results and announce the winner. Governors & Senate the RO is the County Managers. Whether RO has the power to alter results received - either from presiding officer in the polling station or RO or County RO (for senate, governor, woman rep) or president - is big question. I don't think RO should be restricted to just announcing results - even when there are clear mistakes made by those bellow them - mathematical or otherwise. There should be a log on why the results were altered or even rejected- say you noticed a mathematical error or cast votes are more than registered votes.

The law clearly states that ROs are the final word. The IEBC cannot re-write the constitution.

Secondly, the constitution demands diversity. Appointing an all Kalenjin team to Western is NOT.

Thirdly, the law provides for participation by political parties. The IEBC cannot abscond.

It is not about being nice or meeting deadlines. It is the law. Whoever made those illegal decisions knew elections are time determined. There is enough time to review the whole RO process. A history professor told me recently that in the Moi days before the ECK, DCs were named ROs the night before elections. Sometimes the gazette notice would arrive long after the rigging elections

He is the returning officer for Presidential elections.  But that is not the same as having powers to alter certified results from polling stations without the sign off of all interested parties.  His job is officially announcing the results.  The results he announces should not be a secret known only to him until announcement.  They should already be in the public domain. That is transparency.  Now that I think about it, this function, the announcement, his entire job actually, it shouldn't even be necessary.

If a polling station or constituency with party agents does not correctly tally the results, and there are enough of them to alter the outcome, that is the stuff for courts to decide.

[RV Pundit]

He still need to verify - make sure the results meet all the criterias - maths add up - not more than 100% registered votes - was signed by party agents - if not - the RO in the waiting room and agents are told to fix them before chebukaiti announce - otherwise there is no way he can announced flawed results. I don't think his job is just to be conveyor belt of any results.

He is the returning officer for Presidential elections.  But that is not the same as having powers to alter certified results from polling stations without the sign off of all interested parties.  His job is officially announcing the results.  The results he announces should not be a secret known only to him until announcement.  They should already be in the public domain. That is transparency.  Now that I think about it, this function, the announcement, his entire job actually, it shouldn't even be necessary.

If a polling station or constituency with party agents does not correctly tally the results, and there are enough of them to alter the outcome, that is the stuff for courts to decide.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

He still need to verify - make sure the results meet all the criterias - maths add up - not more than 100% registered votes - was signed by party agents - if not - the RO in the waiting room and agents are told to fix them before chebukaiti announce - otherwise there is no way he can announced flawed results. I don't think his job is just to be conveyor belt of any results.

He is the returning officer for Presidential elections.  But that is not the same as having powers to alter certified results from polling stations without the sign off of all interested parties.  His job is officially announcing the results.  The results he announces should not be a secret known only to him until announcement.  They should already be in the public domain. That is transparency.  Now that I think about it, this function, the announcement, his entire job actually, it shouldn't even be necessary.

If a polling station or constituency with party agents does not correctly tally the results, and there are enough of them to alter the outcome, that is the stuff for courts to decide.

He is not a conveyor belt.  Which is why I think his job ought to be redundant.  All that math can be done at the lower levels.  If it doesn't add up, it can become part of a petition.

[MOON Ki]

He still need to verify - make sure the results meet all the criterias - maths add up - not more than 100% registered votes - was signed by party agents - if not - the RO in the waiting room and agents are told to fix them before chebukaiti announce - otherwise there is no way he can announced flawed results. I don't think his job is just to be conveyor belt of any results.

It shouldn't have to be a matter of what one thinks.  By way of helping towards a more objective discussion, may I suggest that you:

(1) State exactly what he "needs" to verify, the legal basis for all of it, and why (legally) he should be the one to do the verification.     

(2) State exactly what these criteria are, where they are stated in law, and the legal basis on which he is to verify that they have been met.

Simply making up stuff doesn't really help, even if, on the face of it, it seems reasonable: a quick consideration of the essence of the made-up stuff will quickly reveal underlying problems elsewhere.    For example, he is supposedly to reject "> 100% of registered voters doing ...".    On that basis---i.e., "too many supposedly showed up"---presumably exactly 99% or 100% would be just fine.   Really?

[RV Pundit]

Here is chebukati saying they must verify the results
http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/news/2017/05/iebc-tells-court-it-must-verify-constituency-presidential-results/

Chebukati is the presidential returning officer - and like const returning officer verify whatever he receives from each presiding officer - Chebukati need to also make sure the results tick all the boxes.

Typical this would include Chebukati receiving all the results from every polling station  - making sure they are duly signed - summing them up again - and where there is a problem - then rejecting some of them.

Allow RO to make final declaration will lead to lot more chaos.

He still need to verify - make sure the results meet all the criterias - maths add up - not more than 100% registered votes - was signed by party agents - if not - the RO in the waiting room and agents are told to fix them before chebukaiti announce - otherwise there is no way he can announced flawed results. I don't think his job is just to be conveyor belt of any results.

It shouldn't have to be a matter of what one thinks.  By way of helping towards a more objective discussion, may I suggest that you:

(1) State exactly what he "needs" to verify, the legal basis for all of it, and why (legally) he should be the one to do the verification.     

(2) State exactly what these criteria are, where they are stated in law, and the legal basis on which he is to verify that they have been met.

Simply making up stuff doesn't really help, even if, on the face of it, it seems reasonable: a quick consideration of the essence of the made-up stuff will quickly reveal underlying problems elsewhere.    For example, he is supposedly to reject "> 100% of registered voters doing ...".    On that basis---i.e., "too many supposedly showed up"---presumably exactly 99% or 100% would be just fine.   Really?

[Omollo]

He still need to verify - make sure the results meet all the criterias - maths add up - not more than 100% registered votes - was signed by party agents - if not - the RO in the waiting room and agents are told to fix them before chebukaiti announce - otherwise there is no way he can announced flawed results. I don't think his job is just to be conveyor belt of any results.

Pundit

That (highlighted) is why people went to court. If there has been cooking (to borrow Kivuitu's words) why should Chebukati cleanse it? Assuming there are recorded 145,777 votes out of where the total registered voters are 107,000, would you like to educate me how Chebukati would "correct" the error?

[MOON Ki]

Here is chebukati saying they must verify the results

Chebukati is the presidential returning officer - and like const returning officer verify whatever he receives from each presiding officer - Chebukati need to also make sure the results tick all the boxes.

Typical this would include Chebukati receiving all the results from every polling station  - making sure they are duly signed - summing them up again - and where there is a problem - then rejecting some of them.

So you keep saying.    If you would care to point us to the law on which that statement is based--and how that law confers on him the powers that are being claimed on his behalf---we could have a more objective discussion. 

And what exactly are those boxes? (Please point to the relevant law.)

[RV Pundit]

I believe the returning officer arrives with all polling station results(all form 36s) - not just a single form 34 - so if there is problem - then they go through each polling station and identify the ones with problems - and those can either be corrected (assuming it's a mathematical error - lots of transposition  - or just clerical error)- and the party agents can sign there and then. If not - then they become disputed. The same process the RO has to go through with each presiding officer from every polling station. They cannot simply be conveyor belts.

That (highlighted) is why people went to court. If there has been cooking (to borrow Kivuitu's words) why should Chebukati cleanse it? Assuming there are recorded 145,777 votes out of where the total registered voters are 107,000, would you like to educate me how Chebukati would "correct" the error?

[RV Pundit]

Why not attempt to read election laws and constitution -and if you still got problems - I can help you.

Chebukati is the presidential returning officer - and like const returning officer verify whatever he receives from each presiding officer - Chebukati need to also make sure the results tick all the boxes.

Typical this would include Chebukati receiving all the results from every polling station  - making sure they are duly signed - summing them up again - and where there is a problem - then rejecting some of them.

So you keep saying.    If you would care to point us to the law on which that statement is based--and how that law confers on him the powers that are being claimed on his behalf---we could have a more objective discussion. 

And what exactly are those boxes? (Please point to the relevant law.)
[/quote]

[MOON Ki]

Why not attempt to read election laws and constitution -and if you still got problems - I can help you.

I have already read them.   And I have problems with your claims.  So, please "help", as I might have missed something.  In particular, as I have already asked, point to specific parts that support your claims.  Thank you very much, ndugu; you will undoubtedly help me learn something today.

[RV Pundit]

Try a little bit harder. Chair of IEBC is the presidential Returning Officer.

I have already read them.   And I have problems with your claims.  So, please "help", as I might have missed something.  In particular, as I have already asked, point to specific parts that support your claims.  Thank you very much, ndugu; you will undoubtedly help me learn something today.

[MOON Ki]

Try a little bit harder. Chair of IEBC is the presidential Returning Officer.

I have already tried my best; and you have already told me (us) the latter.   Where I need help--and you have kindly stated that "I can help you"---is with the relevant law.   I'd very very grateful if you would do what you "can", as you have indeed offered to, instead of re-starting from the beginning; we won't make much progress going round in circles, especially when you have what it takes to alter the course of things.    Once we all know what the relevant law is, we can proceed to more fruitful discussions.    Asante sana, ndugu.   

[Omollo]

That is exactly what Maina Kiai went to court to prevent. Where IEBC starts to create new forms and get new signatures and amend and change until they announce an imposter as the winner.

I can see why you believe you will win: You are banking on the confusion, alteration, correction and amendments by Chebukati. Now you can understand why on our part we say if that is allowed we might as well give up because the outcome would be known beforehand.

I won't belabour the point, Ill grant you time to produce some answers to Moon Ki. I am also listening.

I believe the returning officer arrives with all polling station results(all form 36s) - not just a single form 34 - so if there is problem - then they go through each polling station and identify the ones with problems - and those can either be corrected (assuming it's a mathematical error - lots of transposition  - or just clerical error)- and the party agents can sign there and then. If not - then they become disputed. The same process the RO has to go through with each presiding officer from every polling station. They cannot simply be conveyor belts.

That (highlighted) is why people went to court. If there has been cooking (to borrow Kivuitu's words) why should Chebukati cleanse it? Assuming there are recorded 145,777 votes out of where the total registered voters are 107,000, would you like to educate me how Chebukati would "correct" the error?

[RV Pundit]

if still struggling read here https://www.iebc.or.ke/uploads/resources/o8K6y0Co5S.pdf

[Omollo]

Brief reminder:

[RV Pundit]

The law [which high court declared part of it null and void] provided for verification. where there were problems - then RO - is allowed to disregard those polling station figures that have serious issues. The idea that Chebukati as presidential RO is just made to announce the results without verifying and disputing some of them doesn't sound practical or logical. Any alteration made can be disputed in court. But no way you can ask Chebukati to announce that Uhuru got 60,000 votes from Konoin when registered votes are 55,000.

That is exactly what Maina Kiai went to court to prevent. Where IEBC starts to create new forms and get new signatures and amend and change until they announce an imposter as the winner.

I can see why you believe you will win: You are banking on the confusion, alteration, correction and amendments by Chebukati. Now you can understand why on our part we say if that is allowed we might as well give up because the outcome would be known beforehand.

I won't belabour the point, Ill grant you time to produce some answers to Moon Ki. I am also listening.

[RV Pundit]

For MP & MCA - the const Returning Officer is final. For govenor, senator and women rep - the County RO is final. For presidential - the Chair of IEBC as the RO is final. Each of them need to get result from guys below them, verify, ran sanity checks, dispute or disregard some - and finally announce the winner.This they ought to do is presence of party and candidate agency - and ought to be documented - and those can become part of petition to court.

Brief reminder:

[Omollo]

if still struggling read here https://www.iebc.or.ke/uploads/resources/o8K6y0Co5S.pdf

I have always believed in the hierarchy of laws:

1.the constitution;
2. Laws
3. Regulations

I have yet to come to any jurisdiction that places regulations above laws or laws above the constitution! I think the constitution of Kenya warns laws and regulations to stay out of it way because in case of a traffic jam, it will bulldoze the rest out of the way.

Pundit, what you have posted are regulations.

[RV Pundit]

[RV Pundit]

IEBC are in charge of elections including those Returning Officer who you have so much faith in. They should be allowed to ran the elections. The constitution and Laws allows IEBC to come up with regulation of conducting election.

You either have faith in Chebukati & team - or you don't.

You should because you just forced the previous team out.

I have always believed in the hierarchy of laws:

1.the constitution;
2. Laws
3. Regulations

I have yet to come to any jurisdiction that places regulations above laws or laws above the constitution! I think the constitution of Kenya warns laws and regulations to stay out of it way because in case of a traffic jam, it will bulldoze the rest out of the way.

Pundit, what you have posted are regulations.