Author Topic: SGR Detractor  (Read 16749 times)

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2016, 12:17:58 AM »
Railway need enough cargo to make enough money to pay back Kung Fu ...

Borrrowed from Jukwaa, written back in May 2014:

Quote
What about Mr. Kagame's Rwanda?    He seems rather coy when it comes to details; hardly a word out of him on Rwanda's part of the SGR Spider-Network.   Let's first see how the loudmouth Kenyans fare?   But, of course, we fully support them.   Go Kenya, go!

And speaking of the Kenyans:  Kenyans excited about Kung Fu's "free help" or worried about the debt should keep in mind that so far we are only up to Nairobi, and that's in thought, not deed.  Does anyone there have even Detail One on what happens after the Great SGR reaches Nairobi?   Funding, construction plans, etc? The significance of this question is this: In about 4 years, the Kenyan SGR will have reached Nairobi.   Beyond that, who knows.   In the meantime, the rehabilitated Tanzanian line will be ready for goods to roll from whichever one of their ports that are getting geared for the big time.    Which route will Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, and the DRC take?
http://jukwaa.proboards.com/post/130076/quote/9031

(The new Tanzanian line definitely takes care of Rwanda and Burundi, as joint partners.)

Today, May 2016:

Quote
Rwanda dumps Kenya SGR route for Tanzania.

Rwanda has announced plans to develop rail link to Indian Ocean ports through Tanzania because they are cheaper and shorter than the route transiting Kenya, says Claver Gatete, the minister of finance and economic planning.

http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Rwanda-abandons-Kenya-SGR-route/-/1056/3206084/-/my4av1z/-/index.html

The DN article states that

Quote
Studies by EAC member states showed Tanzanian ...

This is actually the Canadian Consultants report on a review of the Master Plan.   All EAC countries have had that for several years, but we still had Kagame showing up for all sorts of discussions and photo-ops with Uhuru and Museveni, as if ...



MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2016, 01:44:53 AM »
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2016, 06:55:37 AM »
SGR still make economic sense even if we were to do it linking it to kenyan towns.

Offline Kadudu

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4188
  • Reputation: 1411
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2016, 10:04:17 AM »
SGR was initially for the link Kenya-Uganda-Rwanda and East DRC. Now in the middle of the project we change it to a Kenyan city link project.
Guys, we did not do our homework properly before starting this project. Uhuru just had his eyes set on the 10% commission he and his buddies pocketed. Let the Kenya taxpayer now bleed for the next 50 years.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2016, 10:38:43 AM »
I think that is not true. Most of traffic btw mombasa port end up in Nairobi. SGR will proof the most transformative project. And it being delivered on schedule and time. We could have done better with tendering and all that..but that now is water under the bridge. Next yr I look forward to train ride to Mombasa.
SGR was initially for the link Kenya-Uganda-Rwanda and East DRC. Now in the middle of the project we change it to a Kenyan city link project.
Guys, we did not do our homework properly before starting this project. Uhuru just had his eyes set on the 10% commission he and his buddies pocketed. Let the Kenya taxpayer now bleed for the next 50 years.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2016, 02:34:46 PM »
I think that is not true.

It is true.   Go look up the EAC Railway Master Plan ... what is referred to above as the "SGR Spider-Network".

SGR still make economic sense even if we were to do it linking it to kenyan towns.

There is a World Bank report that says it doesn't.   I have yet to see a solid counter-argument to that.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2016, 03:40:53 PM »
What I find shocking is that it took over 50 years for Rwanda to realize that this is the obvious thing to do.

"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2016, 04:14:52 PM »
If Safaricom had read those projections; they won't be raking in revenues of 200B and making profit of 40b now. Mombasa port has grown to become top 5 busiest port in Africa. You have cargo growth of more than double digit every year....this should mean we have to be build many more railways.

After this SGR, kenya gov should look internally before going to small country like Rwanda or even Uganda whose GDP are miniscule. Get railway and road network spanning all the counties of kenya. And we will be building foundation for the future.

SGR is something that will last more than 100yrs....so it can never become loss making in my opinion.
 
It is true.   Go look up the EAC Railway Master Plan ... what is referred to above as the "SGR Spider-Network".

SGR still make economic sense even if we were to do it linking it to kenyan towns.

There is a World Bank report that says it doesn't.   I have yet to see a solid counter-argument to that.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2016, 05:10:12 PM »
If Safaricom had read those projections; they won't be raking in revenues of 200B and making profit of 40b now.

Sorry, I don't see how Safaricom comes into the picture; please explain.    Nor do I see what one would consider a solid counter-argument to the report I referred to; please clarify.       

Quote
Mombasa port has grown to become top 5 busiest port in Africa. You have cargo growth of more than double digit every year....this should mean we have to be build many more railways.

You seem to assume that all that cargo will automatically go onto the railway.   That is not necessarily so.

Quote
SGR is something that will last more than 100yrs....so it can never become loss making in my opinion.

Try applying your logic to the existing rail lines. You forget the little matter of maintenance and that SGR is being built because Kenya has been unable to do that with existing rail lines.  Also, as a rule, profit and loss are determined by more than mere existence.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2016, 06:04:05 PM »
You always fail to see the big picture as you focus on nitpicking. My point is simple...any projection done here in Africa where is data is spotty or missing or things are bound to dramatically change anytime is plain nonsense. It just doesn't pan out that way. This is young growing country that will need more SGR....and that is for future.

As long as we can afford..and we can afford 10b USD for the railway to Malaba...we should do it.How much has corruption cost this country? 10B? And yet the country is still functioning. SGR and Laptop is money well spent.

I just don't see how SGR can become white elephant. The old line served it purpose for many years and was later mismanaged in 90s. Nothing to do with "maintenance" culture but old corruption and mismanagement brought it down to it knees. Moi kleptomania just saw huge land reserves and brought once successful KR down..otherwise it been serving this country for nearly 100yrs.

Then Kibaki come in and ask world bank's to fix it. WB's IFC screw up by not doing proper due diligence on the south African conman RVR...and gave it 25 yrs concession. The idiot turned out had no capital to be running a rail line anywhere.Something we could not just quit because Ugandans would not agree to it.

The country faced a simple choice....wait for 20yrs to upgrade the MGR to SGR...or start another line of SGR to Nairobi...then from Nairobi it takes a completely new route towards narok, bomet, nyamira to sondu to ahero and kisumu....areas that never had the MGR.After RVR fiasco is done..GoK intend to upgrade the MGR to SGR. MGR to SGR wherever the line exist is done deal. We should be talking new rail line like LAPSET one.

Hold your horse...this is just the start.....in 10-20yrs we should be rolling more and more SGR like China is doing. More railways, more roads, more ports, more pipeline and more power stations....this is a country that is a toddler...not a developed country like USA or Japan or UK..that need to debate whether building this road or rail make economic sense..it by default here make economic sense.

If Safaricom had read those projections; they won't be raking in revenues of 200B and making profit of 40b now.

Sorry, I don't see how Safaricom comes into the picture; please explain.    Nor do I see what one would consider a solid counter-argument to the report I referred to; please clarify.       

Quote
Mombasa port has grown to become top 5 busiest port in Africa. You have cargo growth of more than double digit every year....this should mean we have to be build many more railways.

You seem to assume that all that cargo will automatically go onto the railway.   That is not necessarily so.

Quote
SGR is something that will last more than 100yrs....so it can never become loss making in my opinion.

Try applying your logic to the existing rail lines. You forget the little matter of maintenance and that SGR is being built because Kenya has been unable to do that with existing rail lines.  Also, as a rule, profit and loss are determined by more than mere existence.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2016, 06:29:56 PM »
You always fail to see the big picture as you focus on nitpicking.

I prefer to think of it as asking for solid arguments, based on clear facts.  But I'm OK with it if you wish to consider it nitpicking, and I'm grateful that you are here to point out the big picture.

Quote
My point is simple any projection done here in Africa where is spotty or missing is plain nonsense.  It just doesn't pan out that way.

People in Africa (in the private sector and public sector) are involved in that "plain nonsense" all the time; even your  Safaricom right now has its own.    Why do you think they bother?    Or do they use such projections to make important decisions?

And specifically on this SGR thing: where do you think the WB and EAC consultants are working with "spotty" and "missing"?

Quote
I just don't see how SGR can become white elephant. The old line served it purpose and was mismanaged. Nothing to do with "maintance" culture but old corruption and mismanagement brought it down to it knees. Then world bank's IFC screwed up attempt to revive it by not doing proper due diligince on the south african conman RVR...and gave it 25 yrs concession. Something we could not just quit because Ugandans would not agree to it.

The lines were never maintained properly.   No need for debate on that: just go look at them.    Perhaps that was a consequence of mismanagement and corruption.   At any rate, let us take corruption and mismanagement as the root causes.   What makes you  think that the SGR will be free of those?   Did Kenya suddenly change while we slept last night?   

Funnily enough, you (in an odd way) agree with the Japanese consultant who said the real problems had nothing to do with gauge and that no new, SGR lines were necessary!

Quote
The country faced a simple choice....wait for 20yrs to upgrade the MGR to SGR... or start another line of SGR to Nairobi..


Sorry; you lost me somewhere.   What exactly in the concession agreement stopped or stops GoK from rehabilitating  those lines?  (And why 20 years?)
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2016, 06:41:16 PM »
More nitpicking. Kenya has definitely turn the corner infrastructure wise thanks to Chinese. We have learnt our lesson. The country cannot return to Moi's pot hole filled roads and collapse rail line. This new SGR will be outsourced this time hopefully to company with real reputation.

As for lopsided RVR deal....what is there to gain in looking for that.

We should be talking about lapset rail..otherwise SGR is commonsensical economic sensical must do. Anything done to reduce the atrocious transport time& cost in East Africa however little must be applauded...and this will have mutliplier effect beyond what world bank can see or project.WB in any case should be the last people to talk about SGR after screwing up our MGR.

SGR-MSA-NBO--which is the most important for me --is already 80% done--come next year it will going live. That is transformation. This gov has managed to do truly incredible stuff. When Ruto made that claim pre-2013 I thought it wasn't possible...but they've delivered.

You always fail to see the big picture as you focus on nitpicking.

I prefer to think of it as asking for solid arguments, based on clear facts.  But I'm OK with it if you wish to consider it nitpicking, and I'm grateful that you are here to point out the big picture.

Quote
My point is simple any projection done here in Africa where is spotty or missing is plain nonsense.  It just doesn't pan out that way.

People in Africa (in the private sector and public sector) are involved in that "plain nonsense" all the time; even your  Safaricom right now has its own.    Why do you think they bother?   

And specifically on this SGR thing: where do you think the WB and EAC consultants are working with "spotty" and "missing"?

Quote
I just don't see how SGR can become white elephant. The old line served it purpose and was mismanaged. Nothing to do with "maintance" culture but old corruption and mismanagement brought it down to it knees. Then world bank's IFC screwed up attempt to revive it by not doing proper due diligince on the south african conman RVR...and gave it 25 yrs concession. Something we could not just quit because Ugandans would not agree to it.

The lines were never maintained properly.   No need for debate on that: just go look at them.    Perhaps that was a consequence of mismanagement and corruption.   At any rate, let us take corruption and mismanagement as the root causes.   What makes you  think that the SGR will be free of those?   Did Kenya suddenly change while we slept last night?   

Funnily enough, you (in an odd way) agree with the Japanese consultant who said the real problems had nothing to do with gauge and that no new, SGR lines were necessary!

Quote
The country faced a simple choice....wait for 20yrs to upgrade the MGR to SGR... or start another line of SGR to Nairobi..


Sorry; you lost me somewhere.   What exactly in the concession agreement stopped or stops GoK from upgrading those lines?  (And why 20 years?)

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2016, 06:42:58 PM »
More nitpicking.

That's the usual signal for quitting time.   Now given twice.   OK, I have taken note.  :D
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2016, 07:02:23 PM »
Sure thing. You are nitpicking at kenya's biggest investment since 1963. A project that will reduce transport cost by nearly 3 times and transport time by nearly the same factor. Transport cost of a  container from China to Mombasa  now cost about same as shorter nairobi-msa. Come next year this may go down by 2.5-3 times and container will arrive in the same day.The multiplier effect on the economy with import/export worth 20B USD....all mainly go through Nairobi....to Mombasa..is going to be amazing..before you factor transhipment cost for UG,SS and the rest.

That's the usual signal for quitting time.   Now given twice.   OK, I have taken note.  :D

Offline veritas

  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 3347
  • Reputation: 4790
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2016, 07:53:36 PM »
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2016/04/160412-railway-kenya-parks-wildlife/

These trains may not even be functional because of train kill.

A container from China to Sydney is completely free. Importing goods from China to Sydney below AU$1000 is free and exempt from custom taxes. Even though the same deals were made with Kenya, Kenyans still pay ludicrous amount of custom tax for shipping freights and parcels. The GoK has done nothing to trickle down these Chinese agreements to the common wananchi.

These development milestones with China are a result of Chinese agreements and investments across the globe and not just specific to Kenya. I wouldn't credit Jubilee for due diligence enacted by the Chinese. In most instances and especially with transport developments it should've been subject to a tender/bidding war.

The Chinese offers to build things for practically any country but most countries like Uganda aren't that desperate. But I guess Uhuruto had to give the illusion of development after stealing the elections, PEV, printed fake money, money laundered, caused inflation, borrowed yet again from WB/IMF, caused deficits, stole from Irish stock, bribed ICC, set up cyber taskforces, extrajudicial killings etc. who knows how long they can keep up the bromance, development illusion etc. etc. probably until they blame all turmoils on Raila Raila Big Daddy Raila. Kenya is still spiralling towards a failed State. Perhaps like Haiti in 10 years at this rate.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2016, 05:40:38 PM »
Railway need enough cargo to make enough money to pay back Kung Fu ...

Borrrowed from Jukwaa, written back in May 2014:

Quote
What about Mr. Kagame's Rwanda?    He seems rather coy when it comes to details; hardly a word out of him on Rwanda's part of the SGR Spider-Network.   Let's first see how the loudmouth Kenyans fare?   But, of course, we fully support them.   Go Kenya, go!

And speaking of the Kenyans:  Kenyans excited about Kung Fu's "free help" or worried about the debt should keep in mind that so far we are only up to Nairobi, and that's in thought, not deed.  Does anyone there have even Detail One on what happens after the Great SGR reaches Nairobi?   Funding, construction plans, etc? The significance of this question is this: In about 4 years, the Kenyan SGR will have reached Nairobi.   Beyond that, who knows.   In the meantime, the rehabilitated Tanzanian line will be ready for goods to roll from whichever one of their ports that are getting geared for the big time.    Which route will Rwanda, Burundi, Uganda, and the DRC take?
http://jukwaa.proboards.com/post/130076/quote/9031

(The new Tanzanian line definitely takes care of Rwanda and Burundi, as joint partners.)

Today, May 2016:

Quote
Rwanda dumps Kenya SGR route for Tanzania.

Rwanda has announced plans to develop rail link to Indian Ocean ports through Tanzania because they are cheaper and shorter than the route transiting Kenya, says Claver Gatete, the minister of finance and economic planning.

http://www.nation.co.ke/news/Rwanda-abandons-Kenya-SGR-route/-/1056/3206084/-/my4av1z/-/index.html

The DN article states that

Quote
Studies by EAC member states showed Tanzanian ...

This is actually the Canadian Consultants report on a review of the Master Plan.   All EAC countries have had that for several years, but we still had Kagame showing up for all sorts of discussions and photo-ops with Uhuru and Museveni, as if ...




There-in lies the answer to Kiriro's question.  He was wondering why Uganda and Rwanda were not working on their end-points of the SGR.  It seems like they have never been on board.  I find it difficult to believe they had an agreement with Kenya that they simply trashed with impunity.

MGR is the main gauge in East Africa.  If one is talking regional railway integration, that seems like a natural way to go.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kadudu

  • VIP
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4188
  • Reputation: 1411
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2016, 05:56:18 PM »
Kenya is now even sceptical of Uganda taking part in SGR. Jubilee leadership did not do its homework well.

Quote
We can decide to end the SGR at Naivasha or Kisumu

http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Kenya-to-terminate-railway-at-Kisumu-after-Rwanda-exit/-/1248928/3207470/-/rjhj8ez/-/index.html
There-in lies the answer to Kiriro's question.  He was wondering why Uganda and Rwanda were not working on their end-points of the SGR.  It seems like they have never been on board.  I find it difficult to believe they had an agreement with Kenya that they simply trashed with impunity.

MGR is the main gauge in East Africa.  If one is talking regional railway integration, that seems like a natural way to go.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2016, 06:02:35 PM »
Kenya is now even sceptical of Uganda taking part in SGR. Jubilee leadership did not do its homework well.

Quote
We can decide to end the SGR at Naivasha or Kisumu

http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Kenya-to-terminate-railway-at-Kisumu-after-Rwanda-exit/-/1248928/3207470/-/rjhj8ez/-/index.html
There-in lies the answer to Kiriro's question.  He was wondering why Uganda and Rwanda were not working on their end-points of the SGR.  It seems like they have never been on board.  I find it difficult to believe they had an agreement with Kenya that they simply trashed with impunity.

MGR is the main gauge in East Africa.  If one is talking regional railway integration, that seems like a natural way to go.
SGR was always a purely Kenyan affair.  The Mombasa-Nairobi portion is a horse that has bolted.  That said, does it mean that it makes less economic sense to refurbish the existing MGR?  Is it more expensive to refurbish the entire MGR than to keep extending SGR?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: SGR Detractor
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2016, 09:56:24 PM »
Meanwhile those guys are happy to keep cheering Kenya to aim for even greater heights---just as long as they themselves don't have to do anything.   Go Kenya, go!

Just a couple of months ago:

Quote
http://www.nation.co.ke/business/Kenya-electric-rail-plan-receives-regional-backing/-/996/3068142/-/hj1uqxz/-/index.html

Macharia was very pleased:

Quote
Mr Macharia said following the endorsement, Kenya will move ahead with its plans to include the provision for electric traction in the engineering and construction contracts for all other sections including the Nairobi-Malaba route.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.