Middle Class Furious with Ndii: Electricity Prices

[sema]

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What % of Kenyans would be classified under "middle-class" and what incomes would put them there? The theme that Ndii keeps expressing is that he is not really bothered with this tiny middle class.  His concern are the 90 or 95% of poor kenyans and he keeps insisting that cheap power will not come to kenya. 

The choice is between south africa and nigeria load shedding or kenya (constant power, but you'll pay for it) - He doesn't believe IPP's are the problem.

 David Ndii (@DavidNdii) <a href="

Why do I see same middle class tweeps who were trolling me and disparaging wheelbarrows camped here demanding cheap power like it’s a matter of life and death, yet data shows they spend more on DSTV, Netflix etc than on power. Powering  your microwave ovens is not a priority.

— David Ndii (@DavidNdii) March 12, 2023

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 12, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

[RV Pundit]

They are only 3 million people formally employed...they are at least 30 million self-employed hustlers...20million are kids.

So Ndii is right...middle class at best are a million.

[Nowayhaha]

Its a myth , there is no middle class in Kenya.

They are only 3 million people formally employed...they are at least 30 million self-employed hustlers...20million are kids.

So Ndii is right...middle class at best are a million.

[RV Pundit]

Of course there is. 10% of Nairobi own their own houses. There are at least maybe 1.5 million personal cars. It's just tiny. Private schools, hospitals.

Many of them are floating middle class.

Give and take maybe 0.5-1million kenyans are middle class. Very tiny compared to 50m people.

Its a myth , there is no middle class in Kenya.

[hk]

They are only 3 million people formally employed...they are at least 30 million self-employed hustlers...20million are kids.

So Ndii is right...middle class at best are a million.

And that constitutes what percentage of overall spending power? Kenya has 8.6m household connected to electricity that's more than 75% of the population, are all those middle class?
Its like arguing that mobile phones are for middle class since 40% of mobile phones in kenya are smartphones.
IPP are needed to add to base load power generation(kengen hydro&geo) the solution would be to increase base load generation to eliminate expensive ipps. Either more geothermal or natural gas generation from TZ. Adding wind and solar which are intermittent is what necessitates for thermal power as backup which has to be paid for whether its used or not.   

[Nowayhaha]

To bridge the gap , kenya should start mining the coal in Kitui and Coast . Otherwise increase the IPPs or start a parastatal to replace IPPs.
Ipps was a good idea but corrupt people took advantage of World bank IMF suggestions and formed the companies to mint money.
You can never become a developed world using Hydro , geo thermal or renewable sources .
Thats why kenya industrialization is still stuck in the 1970s .
We were lied by Britons about power generation . We dont have large and long rivers like in Europe , America and South Americans .

They are only 3 million people formally employed...they are at least 30 million self-employed hustlers...20million are kids.

So Ndii is right...middle class at best are a million.

And that constitutes what percentage of overall spending power? Kenya has 8.6m household connected to electricity that's more than 75% of the population, are all those middle class?
Its like arguing that mobile phones are for middle class since 40% of mobile phones in kenya are smartphones.
IPP are needed to add to base load power generation(kengen hydro&geo) the solution would be to increase base load generation to eliminate expensive ipps. Either more geothermal or natural gas generation from TZ. Adding wind and solar which are intermittent is what necessitates for thermal power as backup which has to be paid for whether its used or not.

[RV Pundit]

Difficult problem - as everyone deserve electricity.
We should not invest in hydro due to drought definitely
Geothermal has saved us - I say we keep at it.
Solar is great - easy to install - 3 months - you have large solar plant - and I have seen cost coming down to 3-4 cent usd in south africa and zambia.
Problem with solar is storage - we should think about build hydro storage - instead of LNG (which we have to import)

Geothermal - base load

Build solar plants - in day time - pump water to storage dams - in the evening or peak demand - release the water and run the turbines.

Kenya has lots of hills - we just dont have enough water.

Solution - pumped storage - to act as solar power store. Day time - solar plant runs water pumps - to send water uphill to be stored - and during peak time - we generate hydro. Trap the water - send it back up - the hill - again - wait for peak demand - pumping it down - rinse repeat.

And that constitutes what percentage of overall spending power? Kenya has 8.6m household connected to electricity that's more than 75% of the population, are all those middle class?
Its like arguing that mobile phones are for middle class since 40% of mobile phones in kenya are smartphones.
IPP are needed to add to base load power generation(kengen hydro&geo) the solution would be to increase base load generation to eliminate expensive ipps. Either more geothermal or natural gas generation from TZ. Adding wind and solar which are intermittent is what necessitates for thermal power as backup which has to be paid for whether its used or not.   

[RV Pundit]

Nobody will fund coal projects - and we dont have money.
Hiyo kitui coal is now a waste.

To bridge the gap , kenya should start mining the coal in Kitui and Coast . Otherwise increase the IPPs or start a parastatal to replace IPPs.
Ipps was a good idea but corrupt people took advantage of World bank IMF suggestions and formed the companies to mint money.
You can never become a developed world using Hydro , geo thermal or renewable sources .
Thats why kenya industrialization is still stuck in the 1970s .
We were lied by Britons about power generation . We dont have large and long rivers like in Europe , America and South Americans .

They are only 3 million people formally employed...they are at least 30 million self-employed hustlers...20million are kids.

So Ndii is right...middle class at best are a million.

And that constitutes what percentage of overall spending power? Kenya has 8.6m household connected to electricity that's more than 75% of the population, are all those middle class?
Its like arguing that mobile phones are for middle class since 40% of mobile phones in kenya are smartphones.
IPP are needed to add to base load power generation(kengen hydro&geo) the solution would be to increase base load generation to eliminate expensive ipps. Either more geothermal or natural gas generation from TZ. Adding wind and solar which are intermittent is what necessitates for thermal power as backup which has to be paid for whether its used or not.

[hk]

Difficult problem - as everyone deserve electricity.
We should not invest in hydro due to drought definitely
Geothermal has saved us - I say we keep at it.
Solar is great - easy to install - 3 months - you have large solar plant - and I have seen cost coming down to 3-4 cent usd in south africa and zambia.
Problem with solar is storage - we should think about build hydro storage - instead of LNG (which we have to import)

Geothermal - base load

Build solar plants - in day time - pump water to storage dams - in the evening or peak demand - release the water and run the turbines.

Kenya has lots of hills - we just dont have enough water.

Solution - pumped storage - to act as solar power store. Day time - solar plant runs water pumps - to send water uphill to be stored - and during peak time - we generate hydro. Trap the water - send it back up - the hill - again - wait for peak demand - pumping it down - rinse repeat.

And that constitutes what percentage of overall spending power? Kenya has 8.6m household connected to electricity that's more than 75% of the population, are all those middle class?
Its like arguing that mobile phones are for middle class since 40% of mobile phones in kenya are smartphones.
IPP are needed to add to base load power generation(kengen hydro&geo) the solution would be to increase base load generation to eliminate expensive ipps. Either more geothermal or natural gas generation from TZ. Adding wind and solar which are intermittent is what necessitates for thermal power as backup which has to be paid for whether its used or not.   

This could work if its economically feasible. Kengen has the balance sheet not only to borrow but to raise capital for such investment. In addition ipps doesn't have to be thermal the prerequisite should be cost and reliability.
Bottomline cost of electricity affects more than 75% of the household and should be addressed, its not some tiny middle class issue.

[RV Pundit]

I think frustration with Ndii is because hard problem to address -  IPPS have until 2033 huko.

Pumped storage will work - linked with even irrigation.

For example - we can pump water to Limuru kwa Njamba - pale karagita forest - then during peak demand - we released down to Mai Mahiu power station - we connect to suswa - and water is used to irrigate mai mahiu and naivasha farms.

The same for river that goes into Naivasha.

Kenya is endowed with rift valley -  ideal drop for hydro power -  Elgeyo markwet has huge escaperments - Aberdare ranges - Nandi hills ranges

We can pump lake victoria water up to Raila house in Riat hills - and drop it - lots of power - to power Kisumu.

This could work if its economically feasible. Kengen has the balance sheet not only to borrow but to raise capital for such investment. In addition ipps doesn't have to be thermal the prerequisite should be cost and reliability.
Bottomline cost of electricity affects more than 75% of the household and should be addressed, its not some tiny middle class issue.

[Georgesoros]

What % of Kenyans would be classified under "middle-class" and what incomes would put them there? The theme that Ndii keeps expressing is that he is not really bothered with this tiny middle class.  His concern are the 90 or 95% of poor kenyans and he keeps insisting that cheap power will not come to kenya. 

The choice is between south africa and nigeria load shedding or kenya (constant power, but you'll pay for it) - He doesn't believe IPP's are the problem.

 David Ndii (@DavidNdii) <a href="

Why do I see same middle class tweeps who were trolling me and disparaging wheelbarrows camped here demanding cheap power like it’s a matter of life and death, yet data shows they spend more on DSTV, Netflix etc than on power. Powering  your microwave ovens is not a priority.

— David Ndii (@DavidNdii) March 12, 2023

?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">March 12, 2023</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

I thought this man was more intelligent than this.
I take it back.

[gout]

The county can buy knock down plants to process some coal for muthokoi cooking by villagers. India, South Africa are cooking with coal. China is powered by coal.

Nobody will fund coal projects - and we dont have money.
Hiyo kitui coal is now a waste.

[RV Pundit]

Yes if you can fund it; or export to china; or india; or small scale kenya companies for own captive power; like kwale steel mill;
Or for tea business.
Tea companies burn a whole lotful of firewood.
Infact that can be a good business - for tea boilers.

The county can buy knock down plants to process some coal for muthokoi cooking by villagers. India, South Africa are cooking with coal. China is powered by coal.

Nobody will fund coal projects - and we dont have money.
Hiyo kitui coal is now a waste.

[gout]

The AfDB was ready to fund Lamu coal plant. Should work for the EPZ.

https://www.afdb.org/fileadmin/uploads/afdb/Documents/Environmental-and-Social-Assessments/Kenya_-_Lamu_Coal_Power_Project_%E2%80%93_ESIA_Summary.pdf

[hk]

How economically viable is kitui coal? Kenya imports coal from SA, so there's already local market for the coal. Is it mineral rights issue hampering exploitation or high cost of mining or what exactly is the issue?

[gout]

It is.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jc/2021/6647875/

How economically viable is kitui coal? Kenya imports coal from SA, so there's already local market for the coal. Is it mineral rights issue hampering exploitation or high cost of mining or what exactly is the issue?

Ufool had 2 billion in the budget for nuclear and coal. Why bother with nuclear while we can easily hack coal??
https://www.businessdailyafrica.com/bd/opinion-analysis/editorials/budget-allocation-for-coal-raises-climate-concerns-3788874

[hk]

It is.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jc/2021/6647875/

How economically viable is kitui coal? Kenya imports coal from SA, so there's already local market for the coal. Is it mineral rights issue hampering exploitation or high cost of mining or what exactly is the issue?

Ufool had 2 billion in the budget for nuclear and coal. Why bother with nuclear while we can easily hack coal??
https://www.businessdailyafrica.com/bd/opinion-analysis/editorials/budget-allocation-for-coal-raises-climate-concerns-3788874

The question would be then why is it not being mined? Clearly there's already a market for it locally.  In western there are small mines for gold, can the same be replicated in coal mining? Or coal mining require heavy capital investment that locals cant currently afford(I dont know anything about coal)?

[gout]

Mainly environmental activism by same twitteratis and land ownership.

It is.
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/jc/2021/6647875/

How economically viable is kitui coal? Kenya imports coal from SA, so there's already local market for the coal. Is it mineral rights issue hampering exploitation or high cost of mining or what exactly is the issue?

Ufool had 2 billion in the budget for nuclear and coal. Why bother with nuclear while we can easily hack coal??
https://www.businessdailyafrica.com/bd/opinion-analysis/editorials/budget-allocation-for-coal-raises-climate-concerns-3788874

The question would be then why is it not being mined? Clearly there's already a market for it locally.  In western there are small mines for gold, can the same be replicated in coal mining? Or coal mining require heavy capital investment that locals cant currently afford(I dont know anything about coal)?

[sema]

I think the numbers I saw on formal employment were far less than 3 million, but I'm not sure how one would define middle class or what  a "floating" middle class means.

Why have countries like Ethiopia and Egypt been able to provide cheaper electricity? ARe they using the Nile or what is it that they are doing differently?