Author Topic: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious  (Read 24174 times)

Offline kadame

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Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« on: October 16, 2014, 06:19:38 PM »
Synchronicity: His way of describing otherwise inexplicable or highly improbable coincidences involving human consciousness. For example, thinking of a very rare bird in its exacts colours coming through your window moments before the bird in fact comes through that window. The sense of premonition. Having a sense that so and so whom I haven't seen in a while is coming through my front yard and five minutes later so and so does.

Jung's explanation was interesting. He was convinced there was a shared level of consciousness among humans, he called it the collective unconscious, which coincides with Eastern notions of a shared universal self underlying our own reality. His main reasons were archetypes he discovered in human consciousness, standard symbols or motifs that are more or less permanent in our mind, or part of the structure of our mind. the stuff that appears universally in fairy tales/folk tales/myths or dreams all over human cultures; the good mother, the evil step mother, the trickster (like the fox or brother rabbit), the wise wizard/old man/guardian, a sense of journeying, or seeking a home/promised land, or being in wandering/wilderness, and so many more. The best way to understand them is a sort of innate "map" on what it means to be human, or the most basic aspects of human experience that seem already known/mapped in the human psyche from the get go, rather than created through personal experience. so meeting things that trigger the archetype can cause an instinctive attraction or repulsion to us. The great works of art, visual and musical, those that move deeply are said to be able to trigger the archetypes which can be seen (images) felt (emotion/feeling) thought (like aspects/rules of logic) or trigger sensual experience. So enduring works of art are able to capture archetypes. Encountering an archetype has a sense of "recognition" or even deja vu to us, like its something someway somehow known, even if foreign. That means we have mapped something onto an archetype/triggered an archetype. Jung believed they were part of a "collective unconscious" all humans have access to/or a shared consciousness.

The syncronicity also tends to be more likely/frequent the more individuated a person gets. That is, the more "whole" or psychically healthy a person grows, into himself, possessing more and more of his unconscious aspects (the personal unconscious, that is, not Jung's much more speculative "collective unconscious") into his integral/self-actuated self, the more these "coincidences" seem likely or perhaps the more penetrative (into outer reality) a person's consciousness gets.

I disagree with the collective unconsciousness business because I think we are in our core, individuals, based on the fact that no matter how much can be shared between us or between us and the cosmos, we cannot interpenetrate each other beyond a certain level. Somethings we can only know about others when they themselves share it, and somethings of ours can only be made available to others when we open ourselves up willingly. And yet even by will, much remains only our own, unshareable. So human experience I believe supports the basic intuition of individuality. I look at the archetypes as inherited or somehow transmitted rather than belonging to some universal consciousness that we all have together.

Yet there is also a cosmic aspect to us, or an unknown way in which we are somehow connected both to each other and to the cosmos/our field of existence, connected beyond our physically discernible bodies. I say discernible because while I lean towards a more spiritual explanation (our souls are much more vast than our bodies and may possibly be able sometimes to communicate with each other or to connect to the cosmos on a much wider field than we may presume or we can know) this is because I already accept the existence of the soul, but it need not necessarily be the only explanation for the synchronicity/archetypes. There may possibly be an energy around us that reaches much further than our physical bodies, that may not yet be discernible scientifically but could possibly be. That is, there may possibly be more to our physical selves, than we discern. A soul, in its spiritual aspects a least, would always lie beyond any such discernment, even theoretically.

Just musings of mine after a simple convo that reminded me of my old pal, Carl Jung. Enjoy! (those who be interested). :D
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2014, 04:43:05 PM »
Did you write this ? Wow ?

:respect:

The existence of soul has dogged theorists since the beginning of hmm. Plato..

Quote
Plato has Socrates describe a gathering of people who have lived chained to the wall of a cave all of their lives, facing a blank wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall by things passing in front of a fire behind them, and begin to designate names to these shadows. The shadows are as close as the prisoners get to viewing reality. He then explains how the philosopher is like a prisoner who is freed from the cave and comes to understand that the shadows on the wall do not make up reality at all, as he can perceive the true form of reality rather than the mere shadows seen by the prisoners.

The allegory may be related to Plato's Theory of Forms, according to which the "Forms" (or "Ideas"), and not the material world of change known to us through sensation, possess the highest and most fundamental kind of reality. Only knowledge of the Forms constitutes real knowledge.[1] Socrates informs Glaucon that the most excellent must learn the greatest of all studies, which is to behold the Good. Those who have ascended to this highest level, however, must not remain there but must return to the cave and dwell with the prisoners, sharing in their labors and honors.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave

I don't know much about Jung but in philosophy, "form" is widely debated. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Forms

Offline kadame

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2014, 06:41:45 PM »
Thanks. I don't read hard philosophy, just the lay man's version translated by those who read that stuff. :D Carl Jung was a psychiatrist. Psychology is his element, the human psyche.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline Brynn

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2014, 08:42:32 PM »
Interesting topic

As part of my spiritual development I decided at one point to research the concept of synchronicity as it relates to a proposed theory of the quantum mechanics and electromagnetism marrying spirituality via quantum leaps (if you get that you are halfway there). Anyways one of my pals knows Deepak chopra in person (she often invites him to do talks to some green people around here) so she got me an autographed book on synchronicity. She actually invited me to meet him but I ducked fearing he would do yoga on me.
So the day I opened chapter 1 I was also reading the Google story book in parallel and I bought one of those juices with faqs below the pop and it had *the original meaning of Google. Spooky. A few min later I bump into a former classmate who now works at Google in the subway. Strange. Events like these kept repeating with different things and people until I finished the book. After that I tossed the book 2 miles from where I live lol.

Offline Brynn

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2014, 11:05:43 PM »
Seems I kept the btop lol.

http://instagram.com/p/uRC65-pONX/

Offline Brynn

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2014, 11:52:51 PM »
On further thought maybe I need to get rid of it. Could turn out to be another "Jumanji".

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2014, 03:42:25 PM »
What's going on Brynn? What's the book called? I'm not into New Age, self- actualising etc. I'm an existentialist not by choice but my thoughts reflect that school of thought.

Offline kadame

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2014, 03:56:19 PM »
Interesting topic

As part of my spiritual development I decided at one point to research the concept of synchronicity as it relates to a proposed theory of the quantum mechanics and electromagnetism marrying spirituality via quantum leaps (if you get that you are halfway there). Anyways one of my pals knows Deepak chopra in person (she often invites him to do talks to some green people around here) so she got me an autographed book on synchronicity. She actually invited me to meet him but I ducked fearing he would do yoga on me.
So the day I opened chapter 1 I was also reading the Google story book in parallel and I bought one of those juices with faqs below the pop and it had *the original meaning of Google. Spooky. A few min later I bump into a former classmate who now works at Google in the subway. Strange. Events like these kept repeating with different things and people until I finished the book. After that I tossed the book 2 miles from where I live lol.
Deepak Chopra, is he Hindu or New Age?

I respect Hindus a great deal but have a hard time with New Agers. I think its a made up religion by western hippies who really didn't know anything about Eastern religions. They pick up elements from Buddhism or forms of Hinduism (really, a misnomer, but its the moniker we have gotten stuck with)and run with it, adding all sorts of stuff to it that's shallow. For example, that "the secret" fad where all you have to do is imagine stuff and it happens magically...nonsense.

I have weird synchronicities happen where for example I dreamt a conversation happening exactly as it happened the next day. I didn't even initiate it. It was so weird. I also dreamt being somewhere I had never been but one of those weird dreams that get stuck in the memory and then I went to exactly such a place after a few years and was hit with the strangest sense of deja vu I have ever experienced.

Another thing with moms. My classmate got pregnant by a non-Kenyan baafrika which her mom did not want for her and had told her to avoid, she met him in Dec and was pregnant in around March/April, her mom didn't even know he existed. Her mother is in the U.S, thousands of miles away. Much to my friend's shock, she called her worried right around that time in April and told her she had a terrible dream that she was pregnant and that she wanted her to be careful about tying herself before she was financially independent and that she shouldn't get pregnant at all, to be very careful etc etc. :D You can imagine how freaked out the chick was, she had been plotting how to tell her mother for weeks! :D She didn't even tell her after that until another month went by. Similarly, my dearest mommy is always calling me from Kenya whenever I am in distress, be it exams, finance or other issues, asking me if I'm ok, coz she's dreamt of me as a baby crying for her in need and feels something is wrong, and it always is. :D So strange. Mother's intuition?
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2014, 04:55:21 AM »
LB, some peeps would diagnosis you as on the cusp of cuckoo. . mental peeps tend fragment like that. It could be a chemical-memory glitch. Like confusing past events for present, future for past. Seeing bits of familiarly and confusing it for premonitions. Comes with old age and an overworked mind.

Offline kadame

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2014, 05:10:17 AM »
LB, some peeps would diagnosis you as on the cusp of cuckoo. . mental peeps tend fragment like that. It could be a chemical-memory glitch. Like confusing past events for present, future for past. Seeing bits of familiarly and confusing it for premonitions. Comes with old age and an overworked mind.
He he, I'm neither advanced in age nor over-worked. :D Veri, honestly these are facts. Notice, some of these are other people's "coincidences" that come together with some real thing in another's life, like my mom's intuitions that I am stressed, or my friend's mother's much more accurate dream that her daughter in another continent who hadn't even mentioned seeing someone had just gotten pregnant. :) There's a big difference between "bits of familiarity" and dreaming something exactly as it happens the very next day, like the conversation I spoke about, dreamt I had gotten an email from someone I hadn't spoken to in forever saying something, and sure enough the next day there was a message in my mail exactly the same and when I responded, it generally went as I had dreamt. Its also possible for these things to happen in waking life. For example, the example I gave of "seeing" something before it happens, like "seeing" someone you were not expecting coming through the front yard in your mind and sure enough you open the door and there they are making their way to you, that stuff happens once in a while too. Surely you have to have experienced something like it! :D
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2014, 05:44:45 AM »
An intuitive mind is more attuned to predict things with the natural algorithm processes going on in their brains. Some might call that 'wisdom.' A bond between a mother and cub is undeniable. I just don't think it can easily be explained by 'psychic' powers. It might be genetic switches in our DNA we aren't aware of yet that turn on when a cub is distressed. We don't know enough of the body yet. It can be a similar process to when you fall in love. You see the love of your life and your heart goes pitter patter, it's a physiological reaction to a seemingly magical encounter. People describe that as sparks and all sorts of ridiculous euphemism, when in actual fact it was their s-e-x- DNA switching on for pro-creation. I don't believe in psychic energy. I believe in someone being smart enough to predict things without necessarily being aware of the process.

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2014, 05:49:13 AM »
I also think some folks are better at predicting large spaces rather than immediate spaces like most people do. For instance, during a football game, a skilled athlete can see the whole picture, which ways to move, kick etc. involve whole teams to get a goal. Whereas a novice concentrates on kicking that ball correctly without seeing the whole field. Same with leaders. If you spoke to let's say a skilled president of a country, he's like a walking super psychic, he can predict literally everything about you and can somehow communicate that through his "look". Why? He sees the whole country (in most instances), can predict what the little people do, the tides, make decisions, like that skilled athlete, 'tis how he got to the top. Is he really psychic?

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2014, 05:56:58 AM »
Most of what we do is "psychic" the way we induce movement, perception, that can't yet be explained by science a lone. We have "black boxes" everywhere. Cognitive black boxes, health black boxes, theoretical black boxes. This black box appears in everything in spaces we don't have knowledge of. But there will always be that black box... in a way it allows leeway for individuality, creativity, discovery, mystery, things that make life worth living. Explaining that away as 'psychic energy' seems belittling. It's bigger than that.

Offline Brynn

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2014, 06:32:46 AM »
Ladies

I think most women are intuitive. "Mother Nature". Most men on the other hand have to be innoculated from feeling too much otherwise they'll be scared to get some bacon lol. That's why you also find that men who are too small-minded and into women things/ behave like women also tend to be sissies.

Ps: I'm team Mother Nature here but only if you have the ticket.

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2014, 06:37:44 AM »
I should write greeting cards...

Dear Love

...my s-e-x DNA switches on for procreation when I see your member quiver.

Be my valentine (idiom)

Honeybun

=

Dear Soulmate

You are the blackbox that fuels my existential dilemma.

You don't exist, because you and I are one.

Give me oxygen.

Forever,
You (as in you are me too)
=

Offline Brynn

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2014, 06:40:10 AM »
Verygal go easy on the Motrin. It's mind-altering.

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2014, 06:41:31 AM »
Ladies

I think most women are intuitive. "Mother Nature". Most men on the other hand have to be innoculated from feeling too much otherwise they'll be scared to get some bacon lol. That's why you also find that men who are too small-minded and into women things/ behave like women also tend to be sissies.

Ps: I'm team Mother Nature here but only if you have the ticket.

I'm past procreation age Brynn. Oh well.

Men are sissies regardless. Women get bacon and raise cubs these days. You don't want to mess with a mother. They'll butcher whole armies to protect their cub. I deal with mothers on a daily basis, they are by far the scariest things in the universe.

Offline veritas

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2014, 06:43:12 AM »
I'm drinking Berocca at the moment. Imagine if I had a cub. . little me.. .

Offline Brynn

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2014, 06:45:02 AM »
Instinctively yes but I also see a lot of women that need to have their motherhood cards revoked ASAP. Where do you think all these messed up kenyans online came from? Terrible.

Offline kadame

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Re: Carl Jung's syncronisity and collective unconscious
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2014, 06:48:57 AM »
An intuitive mind is more attuned to predict things with the natural algorithm processes going on in their brains. Some might call that 'wisdom.' A bond between a mother and cub is undeniable. I just don't think it can easily be explained by 'psychic' powers. It might be genetic switches in our DNA we aren't aware of yet that turn on when a cub is distressed. We don't know enough of the body yet. It can be a similar process to when you fall in love. You see the love of your life and your heart goes pitter patter, it's a physiological reaction to a seemingly magical encounter. People describe that as sparks and all sorts of ridiculous euphemism, when in actual fact it was their s-e-x- DNA switching on for pro-creation. I don't believe in psychic energy. I believe in someone being smart enough to predict things without necessarily being aware of the process.
Veri, the reaction to thinking about/seeing the object of your affection has a clear causal relationship. The stuff we are talking about stands out precisely because it is acausal, which rules out logic alone and its predictive capabilities without an additional explanation of how the mind is acquiring the raw data its working with to make such predictions...intuition is just logic working in the unconscious part of the mind.  :D

Prediction cannot be separated from a cause-effect relationship. For example, the mother-cub bond is understandable but not when there is a thousand mile distance and no previous/immediate communication between the mother and cub. At the very least, the bond signifies some communication taking place between the cub an its mother, subtle unconscious clues being picked up. Question is how that is possible with such a great distance in between the mother and cub. Whatever neurons are responsible, they are not magical. They must use actual data, but which data and how is this data being communicated to the neurons?

I don't know what you mean by psychic energy exactly, but my own thesis (belief?) is that we are more energetic than we realize, that our bodies are not just hardened/crystallized matter. It makes sense. :D This world is basically energy, all around us there's energy, all communication is energetic and we probably must be able to communicate with it somehow. This may mean we are more physically (not necessarily psychically, though I'm inclined towards it) connected to the world itself than the visually discernible boundaries of our bodies suggest.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)