Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants on March 28, 2018, 07:28:10 PM
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High Court Judge George Odunga has convicted Interior Cabinet Secretary Fred Matiang'i, Inspector General Joseph Boinnet and Immigration Director Gordon Kihalangwa for contempt of court.
Justice Odunga has summoned them to appear in court 10am tomorrow for sentencing.
Should they fail to appear in court in person, the court will proceed to sentence them for contempt.
The judge has also ordered that Mr Miguna Miguna should be released from detention, at the Jomo Kenyatta International Airport, unconditionally.
The judge added that should the three fail to appear in court tomorrow, they would not be granted any hearing.
https://www.nation.co.ke/news/Court-convicts-Matiang-i--Boinnet-and-Kihalangwa-for-contempt/1056-4362076-rrthvj/index.html (https://www.nation.co.ke/news/Court-convicts-Matiang-i--Boinnet-and-Kihalangwa-for-contempt/1056-4362076-rrthvj/index.html)
What does the constitution say about them holding public office(assuming the constitution is still functional)?
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The max is six months jail term...obviously the judiciary and executive been shadow-boxing - so now it when the rubber meets the road. So Matiangi and co will obviously ignore the Odunga tomorrow and he will sentence them in absentia. This is just but the start of Wakora 4 payback. Jubilee last frontier after NASA total collapse is now the judiciary.
The police/executive have a way of flexing their muscle...and soon enough you'll hear Odunga resigning after receiving a dead human head. If not ...the police as means and ways of making life really difficult for you...ask miguna who is yet to shower for days now. They can fire some few rounds near your house or car..and the next you're a refugee or dead.
This is long overdue..the naive judiciary can't handle this war. The unwritten law is that all 3 of arm of gok ought to respect each other...with everyone knowing the executive have the bigger dick and guns.
The civil society after engineering the ICC 4 are basically now vanguished..Wariah Fadul did the damage with account freezing and all sort of heavy hand..the last that survived in Nation Media threw the towel in...it either you work for Uhuru in NMG or Gideon Moi in Standard or well Ruto in the People Daily. In TV sector - the last man standing is Citizen Macharia.
In short Kenya is heading very quickly to 1980s KANU totalitarianism. There is nothing you can do about because dynamic duo have got their shiet together. Jubilee will control KENYA for next 10 or 20 yrs.
I have no remorse personally because I think the project kenya democracy is nothing more than Kenya ethnicity. Maybe we need to settle on the region average..TZ,UG,Rw, Bu, SS, Ethiopia and Somalia are all under some form of one party dictatorship - kenya is just obeying the laws of average. Bar SS or BU...they've grown economically at near double our rate for decades now!
We just need Ruto in there..another Kagame or Museveni or Magufili to forcefully get shiet done. Otherwise Miguna Miguna drama will occupy our mind every day - instead of having a stable and predictable political enviroment.
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The max is six months jail term...obviously the judiciary and executive been shadow-boxing - so now it when the rubber meets the road. So Matiangi and co will obviously ignore the Odunga tomorrow and he will sentence them in absentia. This is just but the start of Wakora 4 payback. Jubilee last frontier after NASA total collapse is now the judiciary.
The police/executive have a way of flexing their muscle...and soon enough you'll hear Odunga resigning after receiving a dead human head. If not ...the police as means and ways of making life really difficult for you...ask miguna who is yet to shower for days now. They can fire some few rounds near your house or car..and the next you're a refugee or dead.
This is long overdue..the naive judiciary can't handle this war. The unwritten law is that all 3 of arm of gok ought to respect each other...with everyone knowing the executive have the bigger dick and guns.
The civil society after engineering the ICC 4 are basically now vanguished..Wariah Fadul did the damage with account freezing and all sort of heavy hand..the last that survived in Nation Media threw the towel in...it either you work for Uhuru in NMG or Gideon Moi in Standard or well Ruto in the People Daily. In TV sector - the last man standing is Citizen Macharia.
In short Kenya is heading very quickly to 1980s KANU totalitarianism. There is nothing you can do about because dynamic duo have got their shiet together. Jubilee will control KENYA for next 10 or 20 yrs.
I have no remorse personally because I think the project kenya democracy is nothing more than Kenya ethnicity. Maybe we need to settle on the region average..TZ,UG,Rw, Bu, SS, Ethiopia and Somalia are all under some form of one party dictatorship - kenya is just obeying the laws of average. Bar SS or BU...they've grown economically at near double our rate for decades now!
We just need Ruto in there..another Kagame or Museveni or Magufili to forcefully get shiet done. Otherwise Miguna Miguna drama will occupy our mind every day - instead of having a stable and predictable political enviroment.
Lakini Pundito,
How exactly has democracy stifled development? One is even tempted to believe that democracy is what is guaranteeing the mediocre growth we are experiencing.
Jubilee with tyranny in parliament pretty much gets to do just about everything they want. I think dictatorship would just serve to minimize electioneering costs which is just a few billions or peanuts given our gdp
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The max is six months jail term...obviously the judiciary and executive been shadow-boxing - so now it when the rubber meets the road. So Matiangi and co will obviously ignore the Odunga tomorrow and he will sentence them in absentia. This is just but the start of Wakora 4 payback. Jubilee last frontier after NASA total collapse is now the judiciary.
The police/executive have a way of flexing their muscle...and soon enough you'll hear Odunga resigning after receiving a dead human head. If not ...the police as means and ways of making life really difficult for you...ask miguna who is yet to shower for days now. They can fire some few rounds near your house or car..and the next you're a refugee or dead.
This is long overdue..the naive judiciary can't handle this war. The unwritten law is that all 3 of arm of gok ought to respect each other...with everyone knowing the executive have the bigger dick and guns.
The civil society after engineering the ICC 4 are basically now vanguished..Wariah Fadul did the damage with account freezing and all sort of heavy hand..the last that survived in Nation Media threw the towel in...it either you work for Uhuru in NMG or Gideon Moi in Standard or well Ruto in the People Daily. In TV sector - the last man standing is Citizen Macharia.
In short Kenya is heading very quickly to 1980s KANU totalitarianism. There is nothing you can do about because dynamic duo have got their shiet together. Jubilee will control KENYA for next 10 or 20 yrs.
I have no remorse personally because I think the project kenya democracy is nothing more than Kenya ethnicity. Maybe we need to settle on the region average..TZ,UG,Rw, Bu, SS, Ethiopia and Somalia are all under some form of one party dictatorship - kenya is just obeying the laws of average. Bar SS or BU...they've grown economically at near double our rate for decades now!
We just need Ruto in there..another Kagame or Museveni or Magufili to forcefully get shiet done. Otherwise Miguna Miguna drama will occupy our mind every day - instead of having a stable and predictable political enviroment.
Lakini Pundito,
How exactly has democracy stifled development? One is even tempted to believe that democracy is what is guaranteeing the mediocre growth we are experiencing.
Jubilee with tyranny in parliament pretty much gets to do just about everything they want. I think dictatorship would just serve to minimize electioneering costs which is just a few billions or peanuts given our gdp
It would lead to more conflict and instability if just looking around Africa is informative. Pundit conflates dictatorship with the rule of law. Lack of freedom with order. More often than not, in Africa, it is the opposite.
Rule of law simply means there are rules everybody follows. Even Trump with his autocratic instincts obeys court orders made on a small island in the Pacific Ocean when they tell him to let the Taliban into the country.
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Fine 200k.
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Democracy is an acceptable scapegoat for our lack of productivity after colonial annihilation of Mwafrika artisan class and consequent outright theft by the beberus, Kenyatta's, Mois, Rutos families and their friends.
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Democracy is an acceptable scapegoat for our lack of productivity after colonial annihilation of Mwafrika artisan class and consequent outright theft by the beberus, Kenyatta's, Mois, Rutos families and their friends.
Did you mean unacceptable? Because Kenya arguably has not had any democracy in meaningful doses. Since 2002, there has not been one credible Presidential election, and there have been 4 of them held. It is obviously crazy to try to dismantle a system that hasn't been given a chance to work or does not even exist.
Colonials did their share of damage, but we are way past blaming them after over half a century of independence. They may have played cold war politics, but nobody had a gun to Kenyans' heads except Kenyatta and Moi.
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200,000 shillings fine is a joke. This is less than a few minutes worth of stealing in Matiang'i's super corrupt ministry. He should have committed them to jail. They would have defied it, but it would be on their records.
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The max is six months jail term...obviously the judiciary and executive been shadow-boxing - so now it when the rubber meets the road. So Matiangi and co will obviously ignore the Odunga tomorrow and he will sentence them in absentia. This is just but the start of Wakora 4 payback. Jubilee last frontier after NASA total collapse is now the judiciary.
The police/executive have a way of flexing their muscle...and soon enough you'll hear Odunga resigning after receiving a dead human head. If not ...the police as means and ways of making life really difficult for you...ask miguna who is yet to shower for days now. They can fire some few rounds near your house or car..and the next you're a refugee or dead.
This is long overdue..the naive judiciary can't handle this war. The unwritten law is that all 3 of arm of gok ought to respect each other...with everyone knowing the executive have the bigger dick and guns.
The civil society after engineering the ICC 4 are basically now vanguished..Wariah Fadul did the damage with account freezing and all sort of heavy hand..the last that survived in Nation Media threw the towel in...it either you work for Uhuru in NMG or Gideon Moi in Standard or well Ruto in the People Daily. In TV sector - the last man standing is Citizen Macharia.
In short Kenya is heading very quickly to 1980s KANU totalitarianism. There is nothing you can do about because dynamic duo have got their shiet together. Jubilee will control KENYA for next 10 or 20 yrs.
I have no remorse personally because I think the project kenya democracy is nothing more than Kenya ethnicity. Maybe we need to settle on the region average..TZ,UG,Rw, Bu, SS, Ethiopia and Somalia are all under some form of one party dictatorship - kenya is just obeying the laws of average. Bar SS or BU...they've grown economically at near double our rate for decades now!
We just need Ruto in there..another Kagame or Museveni or Magufili to forcefully get shiet done. Otherwise Miguna Miguna drama will occupy our mind every day - instead of having a stable and predictable political enviroment.
Lakini Pundito,
How exactly has democracy stifled development? One is even tempted to believe that democracy is what is guaranteeing the mediocre growth we are experiencing.
Jubilee with tyranny in parliament pretty much gets to do just about everything they want. I think dictatorship would just serve to minimize electioneering costs which is just a few billions or peanuts given our gdp
It would lead to more conflict and instability if just looking around Africa is informative. Pundit conflates dictatorship with the rule of law. Lack of freedom with order. More often than not, in Africa, it is the opposite.
Rule of law simply means there are rules everybody follows. Even Trump with his autocratic instincts obeys court orders made on a small island in the Pacific Ocean when they tell him to let the Taliban into the country.
I mean between Uhuruto now and a full dictatorship, I can’t see any ‘benefits’ other than saving electioneering costs. All else corruption,ineptitude,impunity and our mediocre performance remains the same.
What I’m asking Pundito is how a full blown dictator Uhuru fare better than now
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Lakini Pundito,
How exactly has democracy stifled development? One is even tempted to believe that democracy is what is guaranteeing the mediocre growth we are experiencing.
Jubilee with tyranny in parliament pretty much gets to do just about everything they want. I think dictatorship would just serve to minimize electioneering costs which is just a few billions or peanuts given our gdp
It would lead to more conflict and instability if just looking around Africa is informative. Pundit conflates dictatorship with the rule of law. Lack of freedom with order. More often than not, in Africa, it is the opposite.
Rule of law simply means there are rules everybody follows. Even Trump with his autocratic instincts obeys court orders made on a small island in the Pacific Ocean when they tell him to let the Taliban into the country.
I mean between Uhuruto now and a full dictatorship, I can’t see any ‘benefits’ other than saving electioneering costs. All else corruption,ineptitude,impunity and our mediocre performance remains the same.
What I’m asking Pundito is how a full blown dictator Uhuru fare better than now
So you don't see human rights abuses as a cost? You know it's par for the course in a dictatorship. But I agree about, the Kenyan setup especially with the putative dictator circa 2022 has nothing Kagamesque about it, except perhaps dictatorial impulses. I mean can you see Kagame being buddies with Farouk Kibet?
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The big difference between Rwanda, China, Singapore, etc vs Kenya, Uganda, Burundi is corruption and patriotism. The results speak for themselves.
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I think it's given that our politics is corrupt. All the tribal elites are equally corrupt. Obviously if you're Terminator still smarting from the thrashing Raila got - then you want to pass a narrative that Ruto is more corrupt than say Uhuru. What we need is one politician or party to dominate the rest the way Jubilee is slowly doing so we can stop the bickering and we can focus on other issues. Otherwise if all tribal sides are near equal in strength - then we will spend all our time bickering. One side has to politically dominate the way the rest of our neighbours has done...and after that we can focus on issues..like corruption, development. I believe this grand Jubilee plan. To re-enact KANU of 1960-2002.
The big difference between Rwanda, China, Singapore, etc vs Kenya, Uganda, Burundi is corruption and patriotism. The results speak for themselves.
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The big difference between Rwanda, China, Singapore, etc vs Kenya, Uganda, Burundi is corruption and patriotism. The results speak for themselves.
Adding a healthy dose of negative ethnicity makes dreams of an orderly dictatorship delusional. Democracy in more than just name is what will ultimately work.
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You are delusional, Kenya is NOT going back to KANU days and Jubilee will never be Kanu. Jubilee already has various factions and it will fall apart sooner than you think. A lot of changes have taken place since 8/8/2017 which may not be apparent to you but its not going to be business as usual.
I think it's given that our politics is corrupt. All the tribal elites are equally corrupt. Obviously if you're Terminator still smarting from the thrashing Raila got - then you want to pass a narrative that Ruto is more corrupt than say Uhuru. What we need is one politician or party to dominate the rest the way Jubilee is slowly doing so we can stop the bickering and we can focus on other issues. Otherwise if all tribal sides are near equal in strength - then we will spend all our time bickering. One side has to politically dominate the way the rest of our neighbours has done...and after that we can focus on issues..like corruption, development. I believe this grand Jubilee plan. To re-enact KANU of 1960-2002.
The big difference between Rwanda, China, Singapore, etc vs Kenya, Uganda, Burundi is corruption and patriotism. The results speak for themselves.
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Jubilee has only one faction - UhuRuto - anyone who think Raila is part of Jubilee is as delusional as Terminator here. Right now Jubilee already control near all levers of power - and it aint stopping - Uhuru is busy dismantling NASA while Ruto consolidate & co-opt the broken parts of NASA into Jubilee - i'ts a brilliant move that caps the 10 yrs of Jubilee dynamic duo schemes. By 2022 - Ruto and Jubilee will romp home with huge majority - maybe opposition will sit it out again and he'll top up 98% Uhuru got.
You are delusional, Kenya is NOT going back to KANU days and Jubilee will never be Kanu. Jubilee already has various factions and it will fall apart sooner than you think. A lot of changes have taken place since 8/8/2017 which may not be apparent to you but its not going to be business as usual.
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There is no one organization with only one faction-Jubilee is not different from those who have come before it. It will break down sooner or later. The longest it can survive in its current state is 2022.
Jubilee has only one faction - UhuRuto - anyone who think Raila is part of Jubilee is as delusional as Terminator here. Right now Jubilee already control near all levers of power - and it aint stopping - Uhuru is busy dismantling NASA while Ruto consolidate & co-opt the broken parts of NASA into Jubilee - i'ts a brilliant move that caps the 10 yrs of Jubilee dynamic duo schemes. By 2022 - Ruto and Jubilee will romp home with huge majority - maybe opposition will sit it out again and he'll top up 98% Uhuru got.
You are delusional, Kenya is NOT going back to KANU days and Jubilee will never be Kanu. Jubilee already has various factions and it will fall apart sooner than you think. A lot of changes have taken place since 8/8/2017 which may not be apparent to you but its not going to be business as usual.
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There is no one organization with so many members that does not have factions-Jubilee is not different from those who have come before it. It will break down before 2022. Even marriages that do not break up are not the same after some time.
Jubilee has only one faction - UhuRuto - anyone who think Raila is part of Jubilee is as delusional as Terminator here. Right now Jubilee already control near all levers of power - and it aint stopping - Uhuru is busy dismantling NASA while Ruto consolidate & co-opt the broken parts of NASA into Jubilee - i'ts a brilliant move that caps the 10 yrs of Jubilee dynamic duo schemes. By 2022 - Ruto and Jubilee will romp home with huge majority - maybe opposition will sit it out again and he'll top up 98% Uhuru got.
You are delusional, Kenya is NOT going back to KANU days and Jubilee will never be Kanu. Jubilee already has various factions and it will fall apart sooner than you think. A lot of changes have taken place since 8/8/2017 which may not be apparent to you but its not going to be business as usual.
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Lakini Pundito,
How exactly has democracy stifled development? One is even tempted to believe that democracy is what is guaranteeing the mediocre growth we are experiencing.
Jubilee with tyranny in parliament pretty much gets to do just about everything they want. I think dictatorship would just serve to minimize electioneering costs which is just a few billions or peanuts given our gdp
It would lead to more conflict and instability if just looking around Africa is informative. Pundit conflates dictatorship with the rule of law. Lack of freedom with order. More often than not, in Africa, it is the opposite.
Rule of law simply means there are rules everybody follows. Even Trump with his autocratic instincts obeys court orders made on a small island in the Pacific Ocean when they tell him to let the Taliban into the country.
I mean between Uhuruto now and a full dictatorship, I can’t see any ‘benefits’ other than saving electioneering costs. All else corruption,ineptitude,impunity and our mediocre performance remains the same.
What I’m asking Pundito is how a full blown dictator Uhuru fare better than now
So you don't see human rights abuses as a cost? You know it's par for the course in a dictatorship. But I agree about, the Kenyan setup especially with the putative dictator circa 2022 has nothing Kagamesque about it, except perhaps dictatorial impulses. I mean can you see Kagame being buddies with Farouk Kibet?
I was talking about basic and measurable economic indicators; economic growth, per capita income,managing debt levels, strengthening or stabilizing the shilling,poverty levels, education, life expectancy and the works.
Human rights abuse is an intangible and subjective cost. If you don’t believe me, ask Kung Fu. It has been said that they traded off their rights for economic growth or improved quality of life.
The argument that Uhuru’s pathetic track record in steering Kenya is due to ‘incessant nagging’ by opposition and a liberal katiba is a bad joke/excuse. That’s all I’m saying ok?
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I think it's given that our politics is corrupt. All the tribal elites are equally corrupt. Obviously if you're Terminator still smarting from the thrashing Raila got - then you want to pass a narrative that Ruto is more corrupt than say Uhuru. What we need is one politician or party to dominate the rest the way Jubilee is slowly doing so we can stop the bickering and we can focus on other issues. Otherwise if all tribal sides are near equal in strength - then we will spend all our time bickering. One side has to politically dominate the way the rest of our neighbours has done...and after that we can focus on issues..like corruption, development. I believe this grand Jubilee plan. To re-enact KANU of 1960-2002.
The big difference between Rwanda, China, Singapore, etc vs Kenya, Uganda, Burundi is corruption and patriotism. The results speak for themselves.
And I asked,
How differently would Uhunye tackle corruption if he was a full blown dictator?
Like how would he have dealt with NYS?
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It would lead to more conflict and instability if just looking around Africa is informative. Pundit conflates dictatorship with the rule of law. Lack of freedom with order. More often than not, in Africa, it is the opposite.
Rule of law simply means there are rules everybody follows. Even Trump with his autocratic instincts obeys court orders made on a small island in the Pacific Ocean when they tell him to let the Taliban into the country.
I mean between Uhuruto now and a full dictatorship, I can’t see any ‘benefits’ other than saving electioneering costs. All else corruption,ineptitude,impunity and our mediocre performance remains the same.
What I’m asking Pundito is how a full blown dictator Uhuru fare better than now
So you don't see human rights abuses as a cost? You know it's par for the course in a dictatorship. But I agree about, the Kenyan setup especially with the putative dictator circa 2022 has nothing Kagamesque about it, except perhaps dictatorial impulses. I mean can you see Kagame being buddies with Farouk Kibet?
I was talking about basic and measurable economic indicators; economic growth, per capita income,managing debt levels, strengthening or stabilizing the shilling,poverty levels, education, life expectancy and the works.
Human rights abuse is an intangible and subjective cost. If you don’t believe me, ask Kung Fu. It has been said that they traded off their rights for economic growth or improved quality of life.
The argument that Uhuru’s pathetic track record in steering Kenya is due to ‘incessant nagging’ by opposition and a liberal katiba is a bad joke/excuse. That’s all I’m saying ok?
That's what I thought you meant too. It seems to me, that in the countries that end up reaping material benefits, there is stability, few or no atrocities, a predictable political environment. There is never a question of things potentially breaking down at the mere thought of change of guard. Look at Mauritius, Botswana, Namibia. I know they are tiny, much the same way China is a virtual continent.
But we are actually in agreement. The differences largely peripheral to the point. Whatever the jubilated duo may save from electioneering costs, will be more than offset in other ways inherent in kleptocracies.
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Pundit is looking at the real direction we are heading. Given UhuRuto and Tuju pronouncements of intent. They have been sending delegates to 'study' the Chinese Communist Party, the ANC, etc. The idea being to last 100 years in power. Raila's trojan horse is meant to leverage or annihilate it altogether.
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Pundit is un ashamed apologist for ouruto's despotic regime and there is nothing to admire in such people. We know that Ouruto are despots and we do not need Pundit to tell us that because it is self evident. Good people should not hide behind "reality" even when it is bad. Good people condemn evil and seek to correct/stop bad things from happening instead of cheering them on and calling them reality. Good people do not make light of killings of others like Pundit when Msando was killed. Humanism is bigger than tribalism a distinction which pundit does not understand. Pundit is a Kalenjin first and a human being second. Stop apologizing for pundit. Its disgusting.
Pundit is looking at the real direction we are heading. Given UhuRuto and Tuju pronouncements of intent. They have been sending delegates to 'study' the Chinese Communist Party, the ANC, etc. The idea being to last 100 years in power. Raila's trojan horse is meant to leverage or annihilate it altogether.
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It would lead to more conflict and instability if just looking around Africa is informative. Pundit conflates dictatorship with the rule of law. Lack of freedom with order. More often than not, in Africa, it is the opposite.
Rule of law simply means there are rules everybody follows. Even Trump with his autocratic instincts obeys court orders made on a small island in the Pacific Ocean when they tell him to let the Taliban into the country.
I mean between Uhuruto now and a full dictatorship, I can’t see any ‘benefits’ other than saving electioneering costs. All else corruption,ineptitude,impunity and our mediocre performance remains the same.
What I’m asking Pundito is how a full blown dictator Uhuru fare better than now
So you don't see human rights abuses as a cost? You know it's par for the course in a dictatorship. But I agree about, the Kenyan setup especially with the putative dictator circa 2022 has nothing Kagamesque about it, except perhaps dictatorial impulses. I mean can you see Kagame being buddies with Farouk Kibet?
I was talking about basic and measurable economic indicators; economic growth, per capita income,managing debt levels, strengthening or stabilizing the shilling,poverty levels, education, life expectancy and the works.
Human rights abuse is an intangible and subjective cost. If you don’t believe me, ask Kung Fu. It has been said that they traded off their rights for economic growth or improved quality of life.
The argument that Uhuru’s pathetic track record in steering Kenya is due to ‘incessant nagging’ by opposition and a liberal katiba is a bad joke/excuse. That’s all I’m saying ok?
That's what I thought you meant too. It seems to me, that in the countries that end up reaping material benefits, there is stability, few or no atrocities, a predictable political environment. There is never a question of things potentially breaking down at the mere thought of change of guard. Look at Mauritius, Botswana, Namibia. I know they are tiny, much the same way China is a virtual continent.
But we are actually in agreement. The differences largely peripheral to the point. Whatever the jubilated duo may save from electioneering costs, will be more than offset in other ways inherent in kleptocracies.
When you have lived in a democracy, a functioning democracy, it takes eternities entertaining the idea that anything but democracy can actually be any good let alone better. Go back to Cold War and see at all the bile the West( everything Western from religion to academia) poured on communism. In fact communist was a slur slightly worse than Nigger.
I have seen Ndii struggle to divorce Chinese and other Asian tigers success from autocracy. We can go back and forth but I think this is a perfect example of bias. In fact there are countless liberal democrats who have been predicting doom and gloom for China when not busy denying its merteoric rise. China got to the top without following their preferred route so it really is not at the top or so the argument goes.
Before we start spatting, think hard about what informs your views on dictatorship; 1/1 chances are American scholars.
Note, I’m not saying dictatorship is better, just that it receives undue bad press from the West due to envy.
All said, I have yet to see how Uhuruto’s leadership track would spike if they went full blown. I think they would just quadruple their failures.
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I mean between Uhuruto now and a full dictatorship, I can’t see any ‘benefits’ other than saving electioneering costs. All else corruption,ineptitude,impunity and our mediocre performance remains the same.
What I’m asking Pundito is how a full blown dictator Uhuru fare better than now
So you don't see human rights abuses as a cost? You know it's par for the course in a dictatorship. But I agree about, the Kenyan setup especially with the putative dictator circa 2022 has nothing Kagamesque about it, except perhaps dictatorial impulses. I mean can you see Kagame being buddies with Farouk Kibet?
I was talking about basic and measurable economic indicators; economic growth, per capita income,managing debt levels, strengthening or stabilizing the shilling,poverty levels, education, life expectancy and the works.
Human rights abuse is an intangible and subjective cost. If you don’t believe me, ask Kung Fu. It has been said that they traded off their rights for economic growth or improved quality of life.
The argument that Uhuru’s pathetic track record in steering Kenya is due to ‘incessant nagging’ by opposition and a liberal katiba is a bad joke/excuse. That’s all I’m saying ok?
That's what I thought you meant too. It seems to me, that in the countries that end up reaping material benefits, there is stability, few or no atrocities, a predictable political environment. There is never a question of things potentially breaking down at the mere thought of change of guard. Look at Mauritius, Botswana, Namibia. I know they are tiny, much the same way China is a virtual continent.
But we are actually in agreement. The differences largely peripheral to the point. Whatever the jubilated duo may save from electioneering costs, will be more than offset in other ways inherent in kleptocracies.
When you have lived in a democracy, a functioning democracy, it takes eternities entertaining the idea that anything but democracy can actually be any good let alone better. Go back to Cold War and see at all the bile the West( everything Western from religion to academia) poured on communism. In fact communist was a slur slightly worse than Nigger.
I have seen Ndii struggle to divorce Chinese and other Asian tigers success from autocracy. We can go back and forth but I think this is a perfect example of bias. In fact there are countless liberal democrats who have been predicting doom and gloom for China when not busy denying its merteoric rise. China got to the top without following their preferred route so it really is not at the top or so the argument goes.
Before we start spatting, think hard about what informs your views on dictatorship; 1/1 chances are American scholars.
Note, I’m not saying dictatorship is better, just that it receives undue bad press from the West due to envy.
All said, I have yet to see how Uhuruto’s leadership track would spike if they went full blown. I think they would just quadruple their failures.
I don't have a dogmatic preference for democracy. I just think it's Kenya's best option. If you search through this forum, you will likely find that I have already mentioned that South Korea's rise happened under military rule. I just think dictatorship is an automatic fail for a diverse country, and in Africa in particular.
http://www.nipate.org/index.php?topic=6525.msg51837#msg51837
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The bottom-line is that whatever the name of the system that Ouruto have been trying to replace democracy with is a colossal failure.
I mean between Uhuruto now and a full dictatorship, I can’t see any ‘benefits’ other than saving electioneering costs. All else corruption,ineptitude,impunity and our mediocre performance remains the same.
What I’m asking Pundito is how a full blown dictator Uhuru fare better than now
So you don't see human rights abuses as a cost? You know it's par for the course in a dictatorship. But I agree about, the Kenyan setup especially with the putative dictator circa 2022 has nothing Kagamesque about it, except perhaps dictatorial impulses. I mean can you see Kagame being buddies with Farouk Kibet?
I was talking about basic and measurable economic indicators; economic growth, per capita income,managing debt levels, strengthening or stabilizing the shilling,poverty levels, education, life expectancy and the works.
Human rights abuse is an intangible and subjective cost. If you don’t believe me, ask Kung Fu. It has been said that they traded off their rights for economic growth or improved quality of life.
The argument that Uhuru’s pathetic track record in steering Kenya is due to ‘incessant nagging’ by opposition and a liberal katiba is a bad joke/excuse. That’s all I’m saying ok?
That's what I thought you meant too. It seems to me, that in the countries that end up reaping material benefits, there is stability, few or no atrocities, a predictable political environment. There is never a question of things potentially breaking down at the mere thought of change of guard. Look at Mauritius, Botswana, Namibia. I know they are tiny, much the same way China is a virtual continent.
But we are actually in agreement. The differences largely peripheral to the point. Whatever the jubilated duo may save from electioneering costs, will be more than offset in other ways inherent in kleptocracies.
When you have lived in a democracy, a functioning democracy, it takes eternities entertaining the idea that anything but democracy can actually be any good let alone better. Go back to Cold War and see at all the bile the West( everything Western from religion to academia) poured on communism. In fact communist was a slur slightly worse than Nigger.
I have seen Ndii struggle to divorce Chinese and other Asian tigers success from autocracy. We can go back and forth but I think this is a perfect example of bias. In fact there are countless liberal democrats who have been predicting doom and gloom for China when not busy denying its merteoric rise. China got to the top without following their preferred route so it really is not at the top or so the argument goes.
Before we start spatting, think hard about what informs your views on dictatorship; 1/1 chances are American scholars.
Note, I’m not saying dictatorship is better, just that it receives undue bad press from the West due to envy.
All said, I have yet to see how Uhuruto’s leadership track would spike if they went full blown. I think they would just quadruple their failures.
I don't have a dogmatic preference for democracy. I just think it's Kenya's best option. If you search through this forum, you will likely find that I have already mentioned that South Korea's rise happened under military rule. I just think dictatorship is an automatic fail for a diverse country, and in Africa in particular.
http://www.nipate.org/index.php?topic=6525.msg51837#msg51837
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vooke, China is no dictatorship. Maybe Singapore is, but China? No way. China is governed by institutions, not individuals. They may not work on Western models but they are not operating on the whims of individuals either. They don't care about political rights as much socioeconomic stuff.