Nipate
Forum => Controversial => Topic started by: Nuff Sed on September 24, 2014, 11:22:37 AM
-
http://trendingnewsroom.com/readfeed/238608/qa/catholics-will-never-support-raila-odinga-s-referendum-njue-tells-uhuruto
CATHOLICs will never support RAILA ODINGA’s referendum - NJUE tells UHURUTO
Tuesday September 23, 2014 - Head of the Catholic Church in Kenya, Cardinal John Njue, has once again taken on former Prime Miniter Raila Odinga warning him to stop fooling Kenyans with his so called ‘referendum’ because it is never about them but him.
Speaking during the funeral of Father Hillary Wambugu, who was the former Principal of Nyeri High School, Njue told Raila Odinga to drop his referendum and use the existing legal structures to amend the Constitution to achieve his objectives.
The Cardinal noted that Kenyans are not ready for gruesome political campaigns again after the divisive 2013 General Elections saying he would do them a big favour by dropping his referendum, which is also being supported by Governors.
“We cannot be in campaigns every year. If there is a way to avoid a referendum, Raila Odinga should seek the alternatives before dragging the nation through such an expensive process,” said Njue.
The man of clothe further indicated that Kenyans do not know or understand what is entailed in Raila Odinga’s referendum and unless they are enlightened, the referendum is as good as dead.
He assured President Uhuru Kenyatta and his Deputy, William Ruto, that Catholics will never support Raila Odinga’s referendum because it is not good for the country.
- See more at: http://trendingnewsroom.com/readfeed/238608/qa/catholics-will-never-support-raila-odinga-s-referendum-njue-tells-uhuruto#sthash.nG7Llvrv.dpuf
Star was more polite.
http://allafrica.com/stories/201408140786.html
Kenya: Cardinal Njue Urges Caution Over Calls for Referendum
Nairobi — John Cardinal Njue, Archbishop of the Catholic Archdiocese of Nairobi has cautioned Kenyans on calling for referendum saying it is ill-timed.
He noted that it was not appropriate for the country to go through another round of election considering the existing political tensions coupled with other national challenges.
"We are worried about the issue of the referendum at this moment and it is a matter that needs careful approach," said Cardinal Njue on August 10 while presiding over a family day celebration at the Regina Caeli Karen Catholic Parish, reported the Star Newspaper.
-
Wakorintho have joined the chorus.
http://citizennews.co.ke/news/2012/local/item/22641-akorino-sect-says-no-to-referendum
(http://citizennews.co.ke/media/k2/items/src/akorino_sect_says_no_to_referendum22641_L.jpg)
The Akorino sect has distanced themselves with the anticipated referendum accusing the CORD leader Raila Odinga of insulting them during the last referendum. Speaking at Kiandutu slums during a national leader’s forum, the sect spiritual leader for East Africa Stephen Mwololo Muteti vowed to shoot down the referendum.
-
GEMA after trying to use others to help them beat off Pesa Mashinani has no alternative but to come out in the open.
Njue will divide his church and lose whatever authority he had - after all the cons and thievery he has publicly committed. Akorinos are GEMA damu and nothing is lost there.
-
We can excuse Wakorintho for now. Njue is caught between church, state and Mammon. Not an easy choice I can imagine. I wonder what Kababy thinks of this.
-
This is too much! :angry: How exactly does he claim the church has a position on this? In Kenya the spokesman for the Catholic Church is the Episcopal Conference of Kenyan Bishops, NOT cardinal Njue. Why cant he follow in the footseps of his predecessors cardinal Otunga and former Archbishop Ndingi? I sense he is going to force the other Bishops to come out and contradict him again like he forced them to do in 2007.
-
Walala. Kwani papa hasn't devolved infallibility to cardinals? What happens when a cardinal errs? And what sould njaruo Cathoricks do now assuming they are pro-reflendam?
-
Walala. Kwani papa hasn't devolved infallibility to cardinals? What happens when a cardinal errs? And what sould njaruo Cathoricks do now assuming they are pro-reflendam?
This has nothing to do with infallibility. What are you smoking? Cardinal is airing his private opinions, to which he is entitled like any other catholic. My beef with him is that either he (or the press) is making it sound as if it is the church speaking. The same thing happened in 2007 and other Bishops had to correct the statements and say those were Cardinals's thoughts. I just wish he would make that clear when he speaks. Better still, I wish he'd keep such opinions to his friends and not the public. Why bring unnecessary divisions into the church? There's no "erring" here, it is his view. I'm sure other Bishops disagree.
-
I have serious issues with Njue. I have never found him an honest arbiter in matters of conflict. I have seen him more as I think he sees himself: A defender of GEMA interests per se.
His many financial scandals and excesses have set me against him in a way that frightens me at times. I have always respected the Catholic Church as opposed to the confusion one finds in the Evangelical movements. However the death of Otunga and retirement of Mwana Nzeki led the Catholic Church to a monumental disaster in this man Njue. The damage he has wrought would take years to be corrected.
-
Omorlo is one Jarluo I rarely agrees with but on this one he is dead right.
Nuff Sed, I once sat through another Jarluo pastor, Pastor Ken Roche/Yapha of Chrisco. He preached for 15 straight weeks on Hope FM over ABRAHAMIC CALL. He tackled tribalism like I have never heard before. He observed that the church is yet to conquer tribalism and he offered a simple proof; the majority ethnicity of ANY church is almost without fail that of the pastor especially in cosmopolitan areas
So Njue, a potential Pope is not only a dyed-in-the-wool Okoyu shrub master, he probably believes Jesus was crucified on a Mugumo cross :o
-
He assured President Uhuru Kenyatta and his Deputy, William Ruto, that Catholics will never support Raila Odinga’s referendum because it is not good for the country.
See, it is this kind of thing I am talking about....Who are these Catholics the Cardinal is talking about? Huh?? He said a similar thing in 2007, something like "We as the Catholic Church are against majimbo because it is dangerous for the country." Only for the Archbishops of Mombasa, Kisumu and Eldoret to contradict him the very next day, and quite rightly, because it was false that "We as the Catholic Church are opposed to majimbo". From my view-point, cardinal seems to be willing to hurt the church for the sake of his tribe. That seems wrong to me. Maybe it is not so and I am not God, so I cannot tell but at the very least this is highly imprudent, just like 2007. How come Bishop Korir never supports Ruto or Ruto's positions? Never heard of the other Archbishops in Mombasa and Kisumu take on positions aligned with their tribes. They tend to steer from politics. When Archbishop Ndingi and the late Cardinal Otunga ventered into politics, it was usually to tell off the government where injustices were being committed. Hii styro ya Njue ni ingine tu...asii!
-
Nuff Sed, I once sat through another Jarluo pastor, Pastor Ken Roche/Yapha of Chrisco. He preached for 15 straight weeks on Hope FM over ABRAHAMIC CALL. He tackled tribalism like I have never heard before. He observed that the church is yet to conquer tribalism and he offered a simple proof; the majority ethnicity of ANY church is almost without fail that of the pastor especially in cosmopolitan areas
The Catholic church is not dominated by any tribe in Kenya though. It's in every part of the country, hata Garsen and Somali borders. All the more reason for the most visible leader not to indulge in typical Kenyan ethnic partisanship.
-
I kind of sympathize with Njue. First he is beholden to his tribe. In his philosophy the pecking order reads like nyumba, Mammon, Pope, church and Kenya ranks a distant tenth. I would not be surprised if he thinks he is an infallible suspecter of the pope. His dilemma is complicated even more when you consider that in catholicism there is virtually no difference between church, state and Mammon. To ask him to specify that its his opinion is like asking a camel to fly through the eye of a needle.
More bishops should preach against tribe.
-
True. Catholics are everywhere. I was surprised to read that some catholic wariahes killed a priest in Garissa or was it Isiolo? The court case ran for years.
-
I kind of sympathize with Njue. First he is beholden to his tribe. In his philosophy the pecking order reads like nyumba, Mammon, Pope, church and Kenya ranks a distant tenth. I would not be surprised if he thinks he is an infallible suspecter of the pope. His dilemma is complicated even more when you consider that in catholicism there is virtually no difference between church, state and Mammon. To ask him to specify that its his opinion is like asking a camel to fly through the eye of a needle.
More bishops should preach against tribe.
Nuff sed, please stop this: pretending to know what you are talking about and then going on to type falsehoods. I am against people who deliberately misrepresent other peoples positions to suit their own prejudices. You are now finding a way to blame Njue's tribalism on Catholicism, as if the reason Cardinal is tribal is that he is a catholic. Well, news falsh! He aint the only catholic, priest, Bishop or cardinal. So what nonsense is that? Hiyo ni tabia mbovu. Learn to act like the Christian you profess to be and tell simple truths 8)
-
The same can be said of any sect or denomination. And if it did, it would prove nothing. Churches basically follow missionaries enthusiasm. Wherever they focused, negroes adopted. PCEA is a major sect in Central I hear, SDA has a significant presence in Nyanza and AIC is IT in RV
Nuff Sed, I once sat through another Jarluo pastor, Pastor Ken Roche/Yapha of Chrisco. He preached for 15 straight weeks on Hope FM over ABRAHAMIC CALL. He tackled tribalism like I have never heard before. He observed that the church is yet to conquer tribalism and he offered a simple proof; the majority ethnicity of ANY church is almost without fail that of the pastor especially in cosmopolitan areas
The Catholic church is not dominated by any tribe in Kenya though. It's in every part of the country, hata Garsen and Somali borders. All the more reason for the most visible leader not to indulge in typical Kenyan ethnic partisanship.
-
The same can be said of any sect or denomination. And if it did, it would prove nothing. Churches basically follow missionaries enthusiasm. Wherever they focused, negroes adopted. PCEA is a major sect in Central I hear, SDA has a significant presence in Nyanza and AIC is IT in RV
Nuff Sed, I once sat through another Jarluo pastor, Pastor Ken Roche/Yapha of Chrisco. He preached for 15 straight weeks on Hope FM over ABRAHAMIC CALL. He tackled tribalism like I have never heard before. He observed that the church is yet to conquer tribalism and he offered a simple proof; the majority ethnicity of ANY church is almost without fail that of the pastor especially in cosmopolitan areas
The Catholic church is not dominated by any tribe in Kenya though. It's in every part of the country, hata Garsen and Somali borders. All the more reason for the most visible leader not to indulge in typical Kenyan ethnic partisanship.
You are the one who claimed ethnicity of the church can be told from the ethnicity of the pastor. You said that in support of the points made on this thread regarding Cardinal Njue. I am simply pointing out to you that that is not the case regarding the catholic Church. You cannot tell the ethnicity of membership by finding out which tribe the priest or Bishop belongs to. The two are unrelated.
-
.... when you consider that in catholicism there is virtually no difference between church, state and Mammon. To ask him to specify that its his opinion is like asking a camel to fly through the eye of a needle.
More bishops should preach against tribe.
:D
-
Did you read the word cosmopolitan somewhere? That means I was talking of branches not sects
Why do I suspect Nuff Sed is trying to score cheap points by hitting at Catholicism? Njue is clearly an idiot but what has Catholicism got to do with it?
The same can be said of any sect or denomination. And if it did, it would prove nothing. Churches basically follow missionaries enthusiasm. Wherever they focused, negroes adopted. PCEA is a major sect in Central I hear, SDA has a significant presence in Nyanza and AIC is IT in RV
Nuff Sed, I once sat through another Jarluo pastor, Pastor Ken Roche/Yapha of Chrisco. He preached for 15 straight weeks on Hope FM over ABRAHAMIC CALL. He tackled tribalism like I have never heard before. He observed that the church is yet to conquer tribalism and he offered a simple proof; the majority ethnicity of ANY church is almost without fail that of the pastor especially in cosmopolitan areas
The Catholic church is not dominated by any tribe in Kenya though. It's in every part of the country, hata Garsen and Somali borders. All the more reason for the most visible leader not to indulge in typical Kenyan ethnic partisanship.
You are the one who claimed ethnicity of the church can be told from the ethnicity of the pastor. You said that in support of the points made on this thread regarding Cardinal Njue. I am simply pointing out to you that that is not the case regarding the catholic Church. You cannot tell the ethnicity of membership by finding out which tribe the priest or Bishop belongs to. The two are unrelated.
-
Well, even in the city, you cannot tell the ethnic membership of a catholic parish by investigating the ethnicity of its priest. My current priest from home (Nai) is a Kikuyu, but before him, 3 years ago, it was a Hutu who could not speak English; only French and Swahili, before then it was a Southern Indian. Membership depends more on area of residence than the priest. The parish will reflect the ethnic picture of the area it's situated. In Nairobi, this means parishes are always ethnically diverse.
With regard to Cardinal, sometime I wonder if he ever moved around alot? I think he was a Bishop/priest around Central most of his life. He seems to conflate the opinions of his former Gema flock with that of Catholics in Kenya. In any case, the Cardinal is Archbishop only of Nairobi Archdiocese. He cannot possibly claim to speak for the flock of other Bishops, hiyo ni uchokozi. Cardinal is my own Bishop since my home parish is in Nairobi and I have a duty to respect him and obey him in matters of faith and morals and church disciplines but this is not one such matter. If the church has a position, it will come from the conference of Bishops which alone has the authority to speak for the church in Kenya. Even that conference can only ask Catholics to take certain positions where they directly involve matters of our faith and morals, not just what they think is the "best" political decision in a certain question.
-
The man of clothe further indicated that Kenyans do not know or understand what is entailed in Raila Odinga’s referendum and unless they are enlightened, the referendum is as good as dead.
He assured President Uhuru Kenyatta and his Deputy, William Ruto, that Catholics will never support Raila Odinga’s referendum because it is not good for the country.
What does this man take Kenyans for? So much for separation of church and state. #someonepleasetellcardinalnjuetoshut the hellup.
-
Kadame I stepped on your toes? Njue mightbe exhibiting blatant tribalism but it is also true that his dilemma comes from his church. Are you disputing that the system mixes up state, church and mammon?
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21606897-shake-up-catholic-finances-managing-mammon
Religion and finance have always sat together uncomfortably, nowhere more so than in the Catholic church. The Vatican City is a natural tax haven. Its Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR)—better known as the Vatican bank—has been wreathed in mystery and tainted by scandal since its involvement in the collapse in 1982 of Banco Ambrosiano (the bank’s chairman, Roberto Calvi, was found hanged under Blackfriars Bridge in London).
-
Kadame I stepped on your toes? Njue mightbe exhibiting blatant tribalism but it is also true that his dilemma comes from his church. Are you disputing that the system mixes up state, church and mammon?
http://www.economist.com/news/finance-and-economics/21606897-shake-up-catholic-finances-managing-mammon
Please stop this rubbish. Ati his dilema...Where was that dilemma when Cardinal Otunga was Archbishop of Nairobi, or Ndingi, or any of the other Bishops? Did you just discover this "insight" between tribalism and the church yesterday? What has that article you cited about a financial scandal in Rome got to do with Njue's okuyuism back home in Nairobi? If you just wanted to start a catholic bashing thread, si you could've just done so, honestly and clearly, instead of this pretence at stringing together an imaginary link between the bigotism of one character and the church. You are a very strange character. :rolleyes:
-
Njue single-handedly put to sleep the moral authority of the Catholic church in the public affairs of Kenya. There was a time the when the Catholic church spoke, Kenyans listened. But all that changed under Njue when he tried to make it the PNU mouthpiece.
-
Pope Benedict made a mistake, honestly and with due respect. He should've given Archbishop Ndingi the honor.
-
Njue single-handedly put to sleep the moral authority of the Catholic church in the public affairs of Kenya. There was a time the when the Catholic church spoke, Kenyans listened. But all that changed under Njue when he tried to make it the PNU mouthpiece.
Njue lost me the day he went on live TV to apply pressure on Kivuitu to "release the [disputed] results". When faced with a similar situation in 1986, Cardinal Sin (of the Philippines) took an opposite stand. He demanded a thorough investigation before any results were issued. Njue knew Kibaki had "won" based on the disputed results and any publication would grant him an advantage and thus lead to reprisals from the other side.
He trashed all that and went ahead to support Kibaki. I had for a long time thought his support was based on the fact that Kibaki is a catholic. Later I came to establish that the man is a tribalist first and a catholic fifth, after a Thief, Lecher and chain smoking fraudster. I do not think the Catholic Church especially under the current pope would approve of his activities.
-
Moreover, when they were telling people that the church is against majimbo, it was a misrepresentation. The church's social doctrine is basically devolution. Some people call it "distributism" because it's basically that whatever can be done at the lowest level of authority, closest to the ground, should be done at that level and not taken to the higher levels unnecessarily. Isn't that devolution? Several Popes have written encyclicals about it. So if the church were going to take a position on the matter, (It did not, either in 2007 or this time), the pro-devolution side would've been far closer to church teaching than the pro-centralization crowd. Yet Cardinal seemed to have opposite views and then presented them as the church's views, that seemed very strange to me.
-
Moreover, when they were telling people that the church is against majimbo, it was a misrepresentation. The church's social doctrine is basically devolution. Some people call it "distributism" because it's basically that whatever can be done at the lowest level of authority, closest to the ground, should be done at that level and not taken to the higher levels unnecessarily. Isn't that devolution? Several Popes have written encyclicals about it. So if the church were going to take a position on the matter, (It did not, either in 2007 or this time), the pro-devolution side would've been far closer to church teaching than the pro-centralization crowd. Yet Cardinal seemed to have opposite views and then presented them as the church's views, that seemed very strange to me.
Kababe
Devolution is just the expansion of democracy. Let's put it differently: Devolution cannot possibly exist in a dictatorship. The two (dictatorship and Devolution) are mutually exclusive. Thus if you are seeking to be a dictator, you would need to grab all the power and centralize it un to yourself in order to be a proper dictator. Let's put it slightly differently: Devolution takes power from the centre and as long as that power is so dispersed the centre is weaker while the devolved units get stronger.
If you examine the History of Constitutional Mutilation in Kenya, you will notice that Kenyatta starts off as a regular first among equals PM but slowly accumulates powers far beyond what the original constitution had conferred to his office. By the time of his death, Kenyatta had become a regular dictator.
There is a story overlooked in all this: The History of the Death of Devolution (Majimbo) is the flip side of the History of the Accumulation of Power by Kenyatta. As a lawyer, examine the amendments to the constitution to either kill devolution or empower Kenyatta. Its the opposite side of the same coin. Amendments effectively transferred power from Majimbos back to the center. In other words for Kenyatta to accumulate power he had to get it from somewhere as power cannot exist in a vacuum. That power was found dispersed to the Majimbos and from there Kenyatta through an increasing number of amendments to the katiba reclaimed the power. Thus devolution can only succeed by restoring that power back to the regions and taking it away from the center.
Njue's position means he is against greater democracy for his flock. I doubt that the Catholic Church in the Vatican or the ordinary member holds that view. Devolution is now and the future. Countries that fail to devolve power will suffer serious problems. Look at Scotland: Though they lost independence, they have won greater devolution.
-
Yes I agree. Take a look at this and you will understand my confusion regarding the Cardinal's stance on devolution in 2007:
Subsidiarity is a principle of social organization that originated in the Roman Catholic church, and was developed following the First Vatican Council. It has been associated by some with the idea of decentralisation. In its most basic formulation, it holds that social problems should be dealt with at the most immediate (or local) level consistent with their solution. The Oxford English Dictionary defines subsidiarity as the idea that a central authority should have a subsidiary (that is, a supporting, rather than a subordinate) function, performing only those tasks which cannot be performed effectively at a more immediate or local level. The concept is applicable in the fields of government, political science, neuropsychology, cybernetics, management and in military command (Mission Command). In political theory, the principle of subsidiarity is sometimes viewed as an aspect of the concept of federalism, although the two have no necessary connection. The principle of subsidiarity plays an important role in the political rhetoric of the European Union concerning the relationship between the EU governing bodies and the member states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity
And this
Catholic social teaching
The principle of subsidiarity was developed by German theologian and aristocrat Oswald von Nell-Breuning.[2] His work influenced the social teaching of Pope Pius XI in Quadragesimo Anno and holds that government should undertake only those initiatives which exceed the capacity of individuals or private groups acting independently. Functions of government, business, and other secular activities should be as local as possible. If a complex function is carried out at a local level just as effectively as on the national level, the local level should be the one to carry out the specified function. The principle is based upon the autonomy and dignity of the human individual, and holds that all other forms of society, from the family to the state and the international order, should be in the service of the human person. Subsidiarity assumes that these human persons are by their nature social beings, and emphasizes the importance of small and intermediate-sized communities or institutions, like the family, the church, labor unions and other voluntary associations, as mediating structures which empower individual action and link the individual to society as a whole. "Positive subsidiarity", which is the ethical imperative for communal, institutional or governmental action to create the social conditions necessary to the full development of the individual, such as the right to work, decent housing, health care, etc., is another important aspect of the subsidiarity principle.
The principle of subsidiarity was first formally developed in the encyclical Rerum Novarum of 1891 by Pope Leo XIII, as an attempt to articulate a middle course between laissez-faire capitalism on the one hand and the various forms of communism, which subordinate the individual to the state, on the other. The principle was further developed in Pope Pius XI's encyclical Quadragesimo Anno of 1931, and Economic Justice for All by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops.
It is a fundamental principle of social philosophy, fixed and unchangeable, that one should not withdraw from individuals and commit to the community what they can accomplish by their own enterprise and industry. (Pope Pius XI, Quadragesimo Anno, 79)
Since its founding by Hilaire Belloc and Gilbert Keith Chesterton, Distributism, a third way economic philosophy based on Catholic Social teaching, upholds the importance of subsidiarity.
The Church's belief in subsidiarity is found in the programs of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, where grassroots community organizing projects are supported to promote economic justice and end the cycle of poverty. These projects directly involve the people they serve in their leadership and decision-making.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsidiarity_(Catholicism)
Those are wiki articles for summaries' sake but the catholic teaching can be found here: http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/what_you_need_to_know/?id=84
Now if someone reads that, can you honestly say that the church, if she had a position, was for or against devolution?? Of course the church doesnt look at just one thing, but for this issue, for me it seems very clear that the church's teaching is firmly pro-devolution. So when Cardinal said that "We as the catholic Church are against..." That truly was confusing. :-\
-
The Church's belief in subsidiarity is found in the programs of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, where grassroots community organizing projects are supported to promote economic justice and end the cycle of poverty. These projects directly involve the people they serve in their leadership and decision-making.[3]
That subsidiarity is interesting indeed. That makes the church a friend of democracy. How does this principle apply when so much power is vested in the pope?
-
The Church's belief in subsidiarity is found in the programs of the Catholic Campaign for Human Development, where grassroots community organizing projects are supported to promote economic justice and end the cycle of poverty. These projects directly involve the people they serve in their leadership and decision-making.[3]
That subsidiarity is interesting indeed. That makes the church a friend of democracy. How does this principle apply when so much power is vested in the pope?
What great power is this, (vested in the Pope), nuff sed? I'm not asking as a challenge, just want to see where you are coming from when you assert all this knowledge about the workings of the Catholic Church.