Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: MOON Ki on April 20, 2015, 09:08:42 PM
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It is now feared that something like 700 died last week alone trying to make the crossing. Last year, 3500 people died. Just like that.
Some pictures:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32314562
There needs to be less noise about "Africa Rising" and more effort going into making it a less desperate place.
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It also offers a steady source of ISIL beheadees
It is now feared that something like 700 died last week alone trying to make the crossing. Last year, 3500 people died. Just like that.
Some pictures:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-32314562
There needs to be less noise about "Africa Rising" and more effort going into making it a less desperate place.
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(http://images3.naharnet.com/images/137101/w460.jpg?1412255525)
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What do the Italians do with all these dead bodies ?
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Bury them
What do the Italians do with all these dead bodies ?
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Gruesome. Their plans did not quite pan out as planned. Drowning was not in their plan.
Someone is responsible for this trafficking. My hunch is the culprit is sitting pretty, and wont be held to account, somewhere on the beloved continent.
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Prior to this, I used to think very lowly of Italians. In my travels I gave Italy a wide berth and did not even want to transit in their airports. That came about as a result of racist incidents. At one time, the limo driver sent to pick me nearly assaulted me when I approached and tried to board. He drove off and on getting a tongue lashing tried to come back for me but I opted to take a taxi and pay for it.
But now I am seeing it in completely new light. We have Northern, Eastern, Western and Southern Europeans. Italians are Southern Europeans. It is turning out that Southern Europeans are doing something about this. Northern Europeans are heavy on do good rhetoric in line with their Western European brothers (Uk, Germany etc). The extreme right wing parties are doing very well in those countries. There is UKIP in Britain about to decide who becomes PM. In Sweden there is the New Democracy party in a position to throw out the minority Social democratic government at will. In Norway the extremists are in power with a right wing party. The French extremists just scored a landslide victory and placed their leader in line to win the Presidential elections.
All these parties get their support from fear mongering. They influenced the EU decision to reduce rescue efforts knowing that this would result in more deaths. They argued that more deaths would serve as a deterrent to would be migrants.
If that is not a Crime Against Humanity, what is?
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When will the Au call a special session to discuss this tragedy?
Maybe special sessions are only there when one of the African leaders is in trouble with the Western countries.
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Right. This need thorough investigation. You can never be sure. Those Italians might have sank the boat seeing 900 African docking on their shore. The developed world has to do MORE in Africa...to stem the invetiable immigration. They can begin by genuinely helping Africans like Chinese are doing.
Prior to this, I used to think very lowly of Italians. In my travoels I gave Italy a wide berth and did not even want to transit in their airports. That came about as a result of racist incidents. At one time, the limo driver sent to pick me nearly assaulted me when I approached and tried to board. He drove off and on getting a tongue lashing tried to come back for me but I opted to take a taxi and pay for it.
But now I am seeing it in completely new light. We have Northern, Eastern, Western and Southern Europeans. Italians are Southern Europeans. It is turning out that Southern Europeans are doing something about this. Northern Europeans are heavy on do good rhetoric in line with their Western European brothers (Uk, Germany etc). The extreme right wing parties are doing very well in those countries. There is UKIP in Britain about to decide who becomes PM. In Sweden there is the New Democracy party in a position to throw out the minority Social democratic government at will. In Norway the extremists are in power with a right wing party. The French extremists just scored a landslide victory and placed their leader in line to win the Presidential elections.
All these parties get their support from fear mongering. They influenced the EU decision to reduce rescue efforts knowing that this would result in more deaths. They argued that more deaths would serve as a deterrent to would be migrants.
If that is not a Crime Against Humanity, what is?
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This problem became worse after America and Libya killed Gadaffi.
America and Britain destroyed a functioning orderly govt in Libya and left a mess. ISIS is now in Libya. There are three other major rebel groups controlling Libya. They have to generate some income to sustain their civil wars. Sending desperate immigrants on their death trip to Europe is earning them a tidy some of money.
Italy had reached a breaking point and had began scaling back their rescue operations. They no longer go far into the deep sea That is why the death rates have shot up.
This problem will only get worse.
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When will the Au call a special session to discuss this tragedy?
Maybe special sessions are only there when one of the African leaders is in trouble with the Western countries.
The AU? That's funny. This happens every year, but how much has the AU even said about it.
The numbers this week are the largest at one go, but let's not forget that in Feb (that's just 2 months ago) around 300 people died in one go. The AU chairperson called it a "shocking tragedy" and mumbled something about condolences. And that was that.
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Right. This need thorough investigation. You can never be sure. Those Italians might have sank the boat seeing 900 African docking on their shore. The developed world has to do MORE in Africa...to stem the invetiable immigration. They can begin by genuinely helping Africans like Chinese are doing.
Waiting for the developed world to do "more" or for the Chinese to "genuinely help" won't do much while people die like flies. The routes taken by these people suggest that it is largely a human-trafficking problem in Africa; some even start in Nairobi! So the first & immediate change that is required is for some people in Africa to decide that they are tired of their people dying and that they will deal with human traffickers.
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/82353000/gif/_82353692_key_migration_routes_624.gif)
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Nope. Africa have too much problems to grapple it.The developed world have the moral obligation and resources to do more.They can do that by using Interpol if need be to track the human traffickers.
Europeans have to rescue those people by watching the sea.....in either side of the shore.
They cannot refuse to rescue people ostensibly because they'll end up in Italy or Europe.
Kenya host 450K refugees...Italy can build a refugee camp by that shore.
Waiting for the developed world to do "more" or for the Chinese to "genuinely help" won't do much while people die like flies. The routes taken by these people suggest that it is largely a human-trafficking problem in Africa; some even start in Nairobi! So the first & immediate change that is required is for some people in Africa to decide that they are tired of their people dying and that they will deal with human traffickers.
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/media/images/82353000/gif/_82353692_key_migration_routes_624.gif)
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I support EU; let them die. Detain them like animals once they land there. The cost of the illegal immigration MUST be made so high so negroes stop attempting. Accommodating them will just encourage them.
This is just like hawkers in Nairobi...they are victims of poverty, corruption, bad education bla de bla....so let them hawk and turn the streets into toilets. On the other hand you need sanity, order and encouraging them just exacerbates it. They rioted over a clear road reserve in Ngara, pelted motorists. Finally some live bullets and a few funerals later injected some sanity.....let the immigrants die
We expect too much from bazungu honestly.
Nope. Africa have too much problems to grapple it.The developed world have the moral obligation and resources to do more.They can do that by using Interpol if need be to track the human traffickers.
Europeans have to rescue those people by watching the sea.....in either side of the shore.
They cannot refuse to rescue people ostensibly because they'll end up in Italy or Europe.
Kenya host 450K refugees...Italy can build a refugee camp by that shore.
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Nope. Africa have too much problems to grapple it.The developed world have the moral obligation and resources to do more.They can do that by using Interpol if need be to track the human traffickers.
Europeans have to rescue those people by watching the sea.....in either side of the shore.
They cannot refuse to rescue people ostensibly because they'll end up in Italy or Europe.
Kenya host 450K refugees...Italy can build a refugee camp by that shore.
I think you misunderstand my point. So let me do respond in easy steps:
(1) Yes, let us agree they have a moral obligation to help and they have the resources to do more. But that does not mean that they will do so---the mere assertion of moral obligation does not automatically translate into action--and in the meantime people continue to die in that sea. That is the immediate problem that needs to be addressed; and that can be done even while the wailing about moral obligations continues at top volume.
(2) It is strange to say they cannot refuse to rescue people. They can, and the proof of it is that they sometimes have.
(3) A refugee camp is not the solution; far better to absorb them in other ways. That is what happens with the far larger numbers that do make it across the sea.
(4) Except in bad movies, Interpol is not a police force in the conventional sense and cannot do all that is required to track down and sort out human traffickers. The real work will have to be done by the police forces in the countries where those traffickers reside or work.
"Interpol is not a supranational law enforcement agency and has no agents who are able to make arrests. Instead, it is an international organization that functions as a network of criminal law enforcement agencies from different countries. The organization thus functions as an administrative liaison among the law enforcement agencies of the member countries, providing communications and database assistance, assisted via the central headquarters in Lyon, France."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol
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I support EU; let them die. Detain them like animals once they land there. The cost of the illegal immigration MUST be made so high so negroes stop attempting. Accommodating them will just encourage them.
This is just like hawkers in Nairobi...they are victims of poverty, corruption, bad education bla de bla....so let them hawk and turn the streets into toilets. On the other hand you need sanity, order and encouraging them just exacerbates it. They rioted over a clear road reserve in Ngara, pelted motorists. Finally some live bullets and a few funerals later injected some sanity.....let the immigrants die
We expect too much from bazungu honestly.
Nope. Africa have too much problems to grapple it.The developed world have the moral obligation and resources to do more.They can do that by using Interpol if need be to track the human traffickers.
Europeans have to rescue those people by watching the sea.....in either side of the shore.
They cannot refuse to rescue people ostensibly because they'll end up in Italy or Europe.
Kenya host 450K refugees...Italy can build a refugee camp by that shore.
vooke,
Italy, Spain, EU should rescue and receive Africa's tired, poor and huddled masses. Who do you expect to do that?
On the other hand. The African on the beloved continent should own up and fix up.
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Macharia Gaitho:
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/South-Africa-Violence-Mediterranean-Migrants/-/440808/2691946/-/lmegd8z/-/index.html
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Macharia Gaitho:
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/South-Africa-Violence-Mediterranean-Migrants/-/440808/2691946/-/lmegd8z/-/index.html
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I expect them to scale down their rescue missions and to give the survivors a hard landing. They are not necessarily fleeing because Africa is burning but because they CAN. Make CAN hell and they will gladly rot here with us.
By receiving and rescuing them they are actively encouraging the migration.
vooke,
Italy, Spain, EU should rescue and receive Africa's tired, poor and huddled masses. Who do you expect to do that?
On the other hand. The African on the beloved continent should own up and fix up.
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I expect them to scale down their rescue missions and to give the survivors a hard landing. They are not necessarily fleeing because Africa is burning but because they CAN. Make CAN hell and they will gladly rot here with us.
By receiving and rescuing them they are actively encouraging the migration.
vooke,
Italy, Spain, EU should rescue and receive Africa's tired, poor and huddled masses. Who do you expect to do that?
On the other hand. The African on the beloved continent should own up and fix up.
That is callous. It shouldn't matter why they left in the first place. I think they should rescue and rehabilitate those folks who they can save. I feel that is the least one can or should die trying to do for them.
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The real victim here are the European countries that have to make do with the immigrants. Keep them off. admitting irregular immigrants is just about as effective as advertising on a billboard. Negro needs some brutality I tell you. Hospitality I can guarantee you is what has fueled the attempts more than desperation back home
That is callous. It shouldn't matter why they left in the first place. I think they should rescue and rehabilitate those folks who they can save. I feel that is the least one can or should die trying to do for them.
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The real victim here are the European countries that have to make do with the immigrants. Keep them off. admitting irregular immigrants is just about as effective as advertising on a billboard. Negro needs some brutality I tell you. Hospitality I can guarantee you is what has fueled the attempts more than desperation back home
That is callous. It shouldn't matter why they left in the first place. I think they should rescue and rehabilitate those folks who they can save. I feel that is the least one can or should die trying to do for them.
Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig. If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.
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That is callous. It shouldn't matter why they left in the first place. I think they should rescue and rehabilitate those folks who they can save. I feel that is the least one can or should die trying to do for them.
Very callous. Lasting solutions must be sought, but in the meantime these are people dying, not insects.
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Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig. If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.
Absolutely. Moreover, the economic benefits to the host country of migration are by now generally established, although xenophobia inevitably leads to denial of the same.
I think the issue here is not that of people trying to migrate for better economic opportunities; many people do that, including quite a few of us posting here. The real issues are: (a) the conditions that have forced them to take such a desperate path, (b) the human traffickers who have taken advantage of such desperation, and (c) what happens to them once they are in the water.
(a) and (b) should be handled mostly on the continent. (c) to be handled mostly on the EU side, but much can also be done on the other side, at the water's edge.
The real problem right now is that nobody is doing all that is necessary. Given that, my view is that first step is for Africans to look out for fellow Africans and not expect a lot from Europeans.
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Economic refugees are not any different from war refugees. What you can never do if you're human is to send them back or let them die on shore. That is criminal. If we can host Somalis..Italy can host those Africans.
You cannot tell Somalis or Ethiopia running away to go fix their country. Neither can we blame the victim of war or poverty. It like slamming the door on fleeing Somalis because it become a political potato to handle more somalis.
UNHCR was started for this purpose. Italy just need to establish a refugee camp and have UN go there and feed those people. You cannot drown people or leave them to drown.
When those economic refugees are in the camp, the UN (if Italy is broke), will feed, clothe and relocate them...including back to their country...
The right wing nonsense taking root in Europe has no place in modern era. Moonki and Vooke should be very ashamed supporting these.
By the time Africans fix the problem...and that will take a lot of time...those people will dead. They do not need to die because we have UNITED NATION COMMISSION OF REFUGEES.
What South Africa or Italy or Kenya or US need to do is simple. Enforce border controls. And build refugees camps at border where one will only be allowed to eat and sleep..until someone is willing take them or conditions in their home countries have improved they want to go back.
Nobody has said refugees deserves jobs...or citizen rights..but they deserve at bare minimum to be kept alive.
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Economic refugees are not any different from war refugees. What you can never do if you're human is to send them back or let them die on shore. That is criminal. If we can host Somalis..Italy can host those Africans.
A very large number of people actually do make it across the waters. But Italy does not necessarily host them, nor does it need to: many of them end up in other European countries.
You cannot tell Somalis or Ethiopia running away to go fix their country.
Again, you are getting carried away. The call is not for those fleeing to go fix their countries; it is for those responsible for those countries to do some fixing so that their people do not end up in such desperate straits. Ultimately, that is what will have to happen.
The right wing nonsense taking root in Europe has no place in modern era. Moonki and Vooke should be very ashamed supporting these.
You need to ditch the emotional claptrap and read more carefully what I have written.
By the time Africans fix the problem...and that will take a lot of time...those people will die.
Now you have managed to confuse even yourself. Just a few posting ago, you wrote that:
"The developed world has to do MORE in Africa...to stem the invetiable immigration. They can begin by genuinely helping Africans like Chinese are doing."
How long will your "genuine Chinese help" take? Will it be quicker than African countries dealing with their human-traffickers?
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Meanwhile, the religion of peace is not to be outdone by nature. Never missing an opportunity to preach peace.
(http://eastafro.com/Post/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/ISIS-beheading-Ethiopian-Christians.jpg)
Two of the thirty Ethiopian Christians brutally shot and beheaded by Isis were migrants in search of a better life in the UK, their devastated family members have said.
Isis’ media arm released a 29-minute video purporting to show militants executing captives in Libya on Sunday. The footage bore the extremist group’s al-Furqan media logo and showed the destruction of churches and desecration of religious symbols. A masked fighter made a statement threatening Christians who did not convert to Islam or pay a special tax.
One group of men is then shown being beheaded by militants on the beach, followed by another group who are shot in the head in the desert. Officials are trying to verify the video and the identities and nationalities of those within it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ethiopian-christians-beheaded-and-shot-by-isis-were-migrants-hoping-to-reach-uk-and-europe-10191409.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/ethiopian-christians-beheaded-and-shot-by-isis-were-migrants-hoping-to-reach-uk-and-europe-10191409.html)
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What you've written is shameful nonsense. That until Africans (leaders) fix their countries..these people running away deserve no mercy or generosity!.
African leaders or whoever need to fix their countries is a NON ISSUE as far as war or economic refugees are concern.
The immediate concern is why are people being let to drown month in month out....by a civilized nation called Italy.
You need to ditch the emotional claptrap and read more carefully what I have written.
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What you've written is shameful nonsense. That until Africans (leaders) fix their countries..these people running away deserve no mercy or generosity!.
Nowhere have I stated or implied that they deserve no mercy or generosity; such is what I call emotional claptrap.
Nor have I stated that African leaders must first fix their countries; what I have stated is that in the long term that will be the real solution.
In the meantime, I have suggested a stop-gap quick fix: deal with the human-traffickers. Which part of that do you find problematic? What better solution do you have---other than some imaginary "genuine Chinese help"---that will stem the flow?
Of course, the people should be rescued and good care taken of them. But that will not stem the flow.
The immediate concern is why are people being let to drown month in month out....by a civilized nation called Italy.
Not so. The immediate concern is that people are drowning. We can certainly go on and on about why a "civilized nation called Italy" is allowing it to happen; but rather than wait for Italy to do whatever, other approaches, especially on the continent must be quickly considered.
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We can go on and on. But you know what I think with regard to China and West Europe. I think China engagment with Africa has been very good. Europe have not only enslaved Africans, they have colonized them and continue to NeoColonize them.
At the very least they owe it to Africans to keep them alive...
Nobody has sent them the colonial rule bill....so they can use some of the dividends from 100yrs or about colonizing the world to feed refugees.
It simple. Those who have more...more will be expected. You cannot expect poor africans and their countries to do much...
"The developed world has to do MORE in Africa...to stem the invetiable immigration. They can begin by genuinely helping Africans like Chinese are doing."
How long will your "genuine Chinese help" take? Will it be quicker than African countries dealing with their human-traffickers?
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It simple. Those who have more...more will be expected.
The problem is that people and countries don't always do what is "expected" of them. So while we are free expect those who have more to do more, to rely on their doing so is foolhardy: the results are evident all over the place.
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Bogeyman..human traffickers..any names of some notorious ones? Who is trafficking somalis across our borders. The so called human traffickers are just fixers along the way. The problem will remain.."many" Africans will continue fleeing..you're one of them...legally or illegally..until maybe in 2050 when economic conditions will be near equal.
Nowhere have I stated or implied that they deserve no mercy or generosity; such is what I call emotional claptrap.
Nor have I stated that African leaders must first fix their countries; what I have stated is that in the long term that will be the real solution.
In the meantime, I have suggested a stop-gap quick fix: deal with the human-traffickers. Which part of that do you find problematic? What better solution do you have---other than some imaginary "genuine Chinese help"---that will stem the flow?
Of course, the people should be rescued and good care taken of them. But that will not stem the flow.
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Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig. If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.
Absolutely. Moreover, the economic benefits to the host country of migration are by now generally established, although xenophobia inevitably leads to denial of the same.
I think the issue here is not that of people trying to migrate for better economic opportunities; many people do that, including quite a few of us posting here. The real issues are: (a) the conditions that have forced them to take such a desperate path, (b) the human traffickers who have taken advantage of such desperation, and (c) what happens to them once they are in the water.
(a) and (b) should be handled mostly on the continent. (c) to be handled mostly on the EU side, but much can also be done on the other side, at the water's edge.
The real problem right now is that nobody is doing all that is necessary. Given that, my view is that first step is for Africans to look out for fellow Africans and not expect a lot from Europeans.
Yep. The African has to love himself. By himself I don't mean his individual selfish self, but rather the humanity and worth of the fellow African. It always brings me back to Equatorial Guinea. A far from poor country on paper, I would not be surprised to find that some of these migrants are from there.
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Bogeyman..human traffickers..any names of some notorious ones?
I don't have any names. Who did you have in mind for Interpol to arrest?
The problem will remain.."many" Africans will continue fleeing..you're one of them...legally or illegally..until maybe in 2050 when economic conditions will be near equal.
Absolutely.
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So you rather hopelessly or cynically call for action from African leaders...aware they are unable or unwilling..rather than call out the right wing nonsense [inhumane] taking root in Europe like Omollo has done.
The problem here is ITALY. And EU. Immigration has become a political hot potato and their leaders have chosen to become like Zuma of South Africa...
EU and Italy should be called out for policies that seem designed to drown economic refugees from Africa in Mediterranean sea.
It seem if you were alive and Europe were busy enslaving Africans and colonizing them..you would still find time to blame Africans :)
The problem is that people and countries don't always do what is "expected" of them. So while we are free expect those who have more to do more, to rely on their doing so is foolhardy: the results are evident all over the place.
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So you rather hopeless or cynically call for action from African leaders...aware they are unable or unwilling.
There is nothing hopeless or cynical about it. In the long run that is what will have to happen for real and long-lasting change to occur. To the extent that African "leaders" are "unable or unwilling", the problem is not one that will be solved by outsiders.
The problem here is ITALY. And EU.
That may be so. But people are dying, and it would be unwise to wait for that "problem" to solve itself.
It seem if you were alive and Europe were busy enslaving Africans and colonizing them..you would still find time to blame Africans
More excessive and unhelpful emotion.
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In the meantime Italy and Eu should pursue progressive immigration and refugee policies and not cow to right wing political wave. These people have long given up on Africa leaders and literally taken their flight to Europe. Why drown them.
Europe can do better. They are already better. Mwafrika has enough trouble already to worry about someone fleeing the country.
There is nothing hopeless or cynical about it. In the long run that is what will have to happen for real and long-lasting change to occur. To the extent that African "leaders" are "unable or unwilling", the problem is not one that will be solved by outsiders.
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We are talking 900 dead people. Donge? You must be long dead if that isn't emotional. These deaths are happening more and more as Italy enact policies that in plain english demand they do not assist anybody from Africa drowing. How inhumane.
More excessive and unhelpful emotion.
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Infact reading the news..the crisis is more on Europe than Africa.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/21/world/europe/european-union-immigration-migrant-ship-capsizes.html?_r=0
“What happened on Sunday was a game changer,” Prime Minister Joseph Muscat of Malta said at a news conference with Prime Minister Matteo Renzi of Italy. “There is a new realization that if Europe doesn’t act as a team, history will judge it very harshly, as it did when it closed its eyes to stories of genocide — horrible stories — not long ago.”
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We are talking 900 dead people. Donge? You must be long dead if that isn't emotional. These deaths are happening more and more as Italy enact policies that in plain english demand they do not assist anybody from Africa drowing. How inhumane.
More excessive and unhelpful emotion.
This is what I was referring to:
"It seem if you were alive and Europe were busy enslaving Africans and colonizing them..you would still find time to blame Africans"
By the way, if I did not feel anything about the tragedy, I would not have started this thread. If the point you wish to make is that you are more emotional about it, then by all means go ahead; I am not in a position to know who feels what, so I won't argue the point.
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Pundit,
I think you are deliberately misunderstanding MOON Ki. The man does say the refugees should be saved. That doesn't mean they will necessarily be saved as this case shows. Someone is responsible for this situation ultimately. It could be Italians, some human trafficking mafia, any combination of both.
But the African(the big man and his elite circles) needs to fix the situation back in Africa; we know he doesn't have the resources, time nor care for the folks already on the seas. I don't see anything wrong about that suggestion.
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It only a problem when it presented as EITHER OR option. And that is where I have a problem. If we are talking raft of short term and long term solutions no problem. In the meantime Italy and EU who have the ability to save economic and war refugees crossing over...ought to do more and NOW. Africa big man and elite circle are not doing a bad job if you go by economic growth and other indicators. So cut them some slack...it will be more years before they catch up..but in the meantime nobody has the right to drown or look aside as boats try to reach their country.
Bottomline. These are refugees. Let discuss them in that context.
But the African(the big man and his elite circles) needs to fix the situation back in Africa; we know he doesn't have the resources, time nor care for the folks already on the seas. I don't see anything wrong about that suggestion.
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It only a problem when it presented as EITHER OR option. And that is where I have a problem.
Then you have an imaginary problem, because here is what I wrote:
The real issues are: (a) the conditions that have forced them to take such a desperate path, (b) the human traffickers who have taken advantage of such desperation, and (c) what happens to them once they are in the water.
(a) and (b) should be handled mostly on the continent. (c) to be handled mostly on the EU side, but much can also be done on the other side, at the water's edge.
A bit of Pure Pundit:
Africa big man and elite circle are not doing a bad job
Really? Wow.
Oddly enough, just a couple of postings ago you suggested they were "unable or unwilling" to do what is required.
You add:
in the meantime nobody has the right to drown or look aside as boats try to reach their country.
That may be so. But right or no-right, the fact is that it is happening.
Bottomline. These are refugees. Let discuss them in that context.
A discussion on refuges should never be entirely separated from a discussion of the conditions that made them to be refugees in the first place. An inclusive discussion is always the start for lasting solutions.
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Australian Racist Prime Minister just offered advice to Europe on how to deal with non-white immigrants: Stop the Boats (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/tony-abbott-tells-europe-to-stop-the-boats-like-australia-as-migrant-crisis-continues-10191566.html)
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The notion of "moral obligation" has come up, in a rather excited fashion, for the second time in about as many weeks. So I thought I'd share some of my views on that:
(1) The notion of "moral obligation" is not absolute. Among other things, it depends on one's "system of ethics", which, in turn, is determined by numerous factors. Suffice it to say that what it entails varies from place to place and even from person to person.
(2) Where people feel sufficiently strongly about "moral obligations" and agree on them, they will codify them into laws, agreements, or whatever. Those too will vary from place to place, but there are some international ones---such as on refugees, prisoners of war, and so forth.
(3) To my mind, where "moral obligations" are not codified into law, or whatever, it is foolish to rely on them---for the very simple reasons in (1). This, of course, does not mean that we should not assert what we feel "moral obligations"; it simply means that it is unwise to rely on such assertions, unless it is among people or nations or whatever that share the same views on such matters.
(4) My observation---and it could be wrong---is that people, whether as individuals or as nations, act first in self-interest. To the point that they have been "indoctrinated" in some particular religion or "system of ethics" or some guilt-inducing system---and a few might even actually be good---they might also act in the interest of others. Otherwise, action will be based on the fear of adverse consequences (e.g. from failure to obey the "law".)
In the present matter, we may all agree that Europeans have certain moral obligations to act in certain ways. But the most pressing question has to be this: what if they don't? As Africans, what is our self-interest, and who looks after it?
Pundit has, for example, suggested that
In the meantime Italy and Eu should pursue progressive immigration and refugee policies and not cow to right wing political wave.
They might, or they might not. In that regard, I don't foresee any major changes "in the meantime", but that is actually not especially important for the point I wish to make. More critical is this: what if they don't? By way of "safety" or Plan B, I think that we should also prepare for "the worst". So, to my mind, here is the pressing question: given that it is easier to control or to change oneself than to control or to change others, what can we do for ourselves?
While we also call on the EU to do certain things, why not at the same time also call out on the AU? For Uhuru and Ruto, the latter went all out. How many words have they even said about the Mediterranean situation? (It has been going on for years and this year looks set to be a "record year".)
As Africans we need to give up on this idea that we must continue to rely on the West or the East (China) until one day, miraculously, we achieve "equality"; after all, we did not have such thinking during the independence wars. We have the abilities and resources to do for ourselves. If our leaders are "unable or unwilling", is the solution then to "outsource" the leadership while, oddly enough, at the very same time we assert "sovereign and independent and equal"? Is that not a recipe for perpetual dependency? Yes, someone will always send yellow maize, perhaps out of some sense of "moral obligation". But why not free ourselves by growing our own maize?
Given what mwafrika faces all over the world, the only real solution will be for him to work on making home a better place. So, the Europeans don't care whether or not Africans die, like flies, in the Mediterranean. And the Africans? Where is their caring?
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In summary you espouse primitive Darwinian theory of survival for the fittest. Part of the job of African leaders and us African people is to REMIND Europeans and other fortunate nations of their moral obligation to help the poor,the weak and those running away from poverty, disease and wars.When we become rich...we will do our part to help poor Europeans. Angola is helping Portugal now...they are not drowning their boats.
Societal changes just do not happen. People had to shout to make slavery illegal. They had to shout to make racism illegal. They had to shout to make colonoliasm illegal. They had to shout to make South Africa's Apartheid illegal. The perpetrators were all powerful nations...and victim were helpless..and so it would seem..the women from Syria with little kids trying to make their way to Europe.
The victim here is a helpless refugee whose only crimes is trying to make a better life for themselves by crossing the borders. We need to tell Europe they cannot do that.They cannot practice racism live live under the guise of "Immigration" control because we know Eastern Europeans are moving in more numbers than Africans and Arabs.
And you'll find me shouting about Xenophobia and Isreal's Apartheid...and these immigrants.
Telling us to go and quickly develop our African countries is absolute total BS that your spew day in day out. Development is not a pizza your order. That will take even 100yrs....we are making small painful progress...but this will take a lot of time and patience.
World leaders should call out Europe racist immigration controls for what it is...abhorrent racism. If they insist..we can also kick out their people or companies from Africa and Middle East. Kenya for starters has 100,000 British passport holders...20,000 americans...and name them.
The notion of "moral obligation" has come up, in a rather excited u, for the second time in about as many weeks. So I thought I'd share some of my views on that:
(1) The notion of "moral obligation" is not absolute. Among other things, it depends on one's "system of ethics", which, in turn, is determined by numerous factors. Suffice it to say that what it entails varies from place to place and even from person to person.
(2) Where people feel sufficiently strongly about "moral obligations" and agree on them, they will codify them into laws, agreements, or whatever. Those too will vary from place to place, but there are some international ones---such as on refugees, prisoners of war, and so forth.
(3) To my mind, where "moral obligations" are not codified into law, or whatever, it is foolish to rely on them---for the very simple reasons in (1). This, of course, does not mean that we should not assert what we feel "moral obligations"; it simply means that it is unwise to rely on such assertions, unless it is among people or nations or whatever that share the same views on such matters.
(4) My observation---and it could be wrong---is that people, whether as individuals or as nations, act first in self-interest. To the point that they have been "indoctrinated" in some particular religion or "system of ethics" or some guilt-inducing system---and a few might even actually be good---they might also act in the interest of others. Otherwise, action will be based on the fear of adverse consequences (e.g. from failure to obey the "law".)
In the present matter, we may all agree that Europeans have certain moral obligations to act in certain ways. But the most pressing question has to be this: what if they don't? As Africans, what is our self-interest, and who looks after it?
Pundit has, for example, suggested that
In the meantime Italy and Eu should pursue progressive immigration and refugee policies and not cow to right wing political wave.
They might, or they might not. In that regard, I don't foresee any major changes "in the meantime", but that is actually not especially important for the point I wish to make. More critical is this: what if they don't? By way of "safety" or Plan B, I think that we should also prepare for "the worst". So, to my mind, here is the pressing question: given that it is easier to control or to change oneself than to control or to change others, what can we do for ourselves?
While we also call on the EU to do certain things, why not at the same time also call out on the AU? For Uhuru and Ruto, the latter went all out. How many words have they even said about the Mediterranean situation? (It has been going on for years and this year looks set to be a "record year".)
As Africans we need to give up on this idea that we must continue to rely on the West or the East (China) until one day, miraculously, we achieve "equality"; after all, we did not have such thinking during the independence wars. We have the abilities and resources to do for ourselves. If our leaders are "unable or unwilling", is the solution then to "outsource" the leadership while, oddly enough, at the very same time we assert "sovereign and independent and equal"? Is that not a recipe for perpetual dependency? Yes, someone will always send yellow maize, perhaps out of some sense of "moral obligation". But why not free ourselves by growing our own maize?
Given what mwafrika faces all over the world, the only real solution will be for him to work on making home a better place. So, the Europeans don't care whether or not Africans die, like flies, in the Mediterranean. And the Africans? Where is their caring?
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In summary you espouse primitive Darwinian theory of survival for the fittest. Part of the job of African leaders and us African people is to REMIND Europeans and other fortunate nations of their moral obligation to help the poor,the weak and those running away from poverty, disease and wars.
No, I do not espouse any such thing. The African "leaders" are certainly free to remind the Europeans of anything and everything they think requires reminders. But it seems to be unwise to count on such reminders having any effect. Better have a Plan B ... is how I see it. (We need not here get into what "job" African leaders have with respect to Africans.)
Societal changes just do not happen. People had to shout to make slavery illegal. They had to shout to make racism illegal. They had to shout to make colonoliasm illegal. They had to shout to make South Africa's Apartheid illegal. The perpetrators were all powerful nations...and victim were helpless..and so it would seem..the women from Syria with little kids trying to make their way to Europe.
Quite right. (For the moment we need not dwell on what societal changes African "leaders" are working on.) One has to work to make things happen. And, even while shouting, one ought to have a back-up plan in case the shouting does not have the desired effect; that is what I'm saying.
The victim here is a helpless refugee whose only crimes is trying to make a better life for themselves by crossing the borders.
I don't think anybody disputes that.
We need to tell Europe they cannot do that.They cannot practice racism live
I really don't know what you mean by they cannot. The simple fact is that they can, and, again, the proof is in the fact that they do. All the time. We can, should, and must shout about that; but we ought to do more than just hope that shouting will bring about the desired effect.
And you'll find me shouting about Xenophobia and Isreal's Apartheid...and these immigrants.
And so you should, as should we all. But one hopes that there is a better plan than just shouting. As I have asked: what if the shouting has no effect?
Tell us to go and quickly develop our African countries is absolute total BS that your spew day in day out.
There you go again, getting carried away with emotion. What I say is simple. Let me break it down into easy parts:
(1) Racism is nasty. We should all object to it and shout about it. And the same goes for failure to help refugees drowning in the sea.
(2) But we must also consider that objections and shouting might have no effect. In such a case, it behooves us to take care of ourselves.
(3) Rather than just hoping that our shouting will have some effect on the Europeans, we ought to look into what to do at our end.
What I don't see in your proposals is any "back-up plan" in the event that the Europeans don't listen to the shouting and the "genuine Chinese help" does not work fast enough.
Development is not a pizza your order.
Indeed. But neither does it fall out of the sky. Nor is it handed out by others. One needs to work on it, for oneself.
World leaders should call out Europe racist immigration controls for what it is...abhorrent racism.
Absolutely. And if they don't? And if they do, but the calls have no effect? What then?
If they insist..we can also kick out their people or companies from Africa and Middle East. Kenya for starters has 100,000 British passport holders...20,000 americans...and name them.
This is where, again, I remind you that neither African governments nor the African Union seems to care the slightest bit about this issue. Where do you propose to start?
You want to kick all those Westerners out of Kenya over this? What gives you the idea that the Kenyan government has the slightest concern in the matter? (As it is, Kenyans are shedding grim tears over the drop in the number of Western tourists.) Please ease off on the emotion-accelerator, and return to the real world.
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P.S: I note, in the "kicking out" proposal, the implication that Africans can do something, or even threaten to do something. It's a tiny, and largely useless and impractical proposal, but it is a start, however small, in thinking about "what can we do at our end?". Keep going.
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You're going in cycles. Let me repeat. Condemning Europe's latest racist turn as right wing nuts take over is part of DOING something. Or you think they are dumb and deaf. What more do you want us to do 1) Either accelerate our development (improbable) or 2) Condemn outright racist policies from EU.In this thread..Omollo seem to have identified the real issue...while you're just busy with the now stale and boring tirade against Africans and their leaders.
And besides.
Africa is doing very well growing at 6% on average for the last 20yrs...which is near what China and India are doing...and is really commendable.
In summary you espouse primitive Darwinian theory of survival for the fittest. Part of the job of African leaders and us African people is to REMIND Europeans and other fortunate nations of their moral obligation to help the poor,the weak and those running away from poverty, disease and wars.
No, I do not espouse any such thing. The African "leaders" are certainly free to remind the Europeans of anything and everything they think requires reminders. But it seems to be unwise to count on such reminders having any effect. Better have a Plan B ... is how I see it. (We need not here get into what "job" African leaders have with respect to Africans.)
Societal changes just do not happen. People had to shout to make slavery illegal. They had to shout to make racism illegal. They had to shout to make colonoliasm illegal. They had to shout to make South Africa's Apartheid illegal. The perpetrators were all powerful nations...and victim were helpless..and so it would seem..the women from Syria with little kids trying to make their way to Europe.
Quite right. (For the moment we need not dwell on what societal changes African "leaders" are working on.) One has to work to make things happen. And, even while shouting, one ought to have a back-up plan in case the shouting does not have the desired effect; that is what I'm saying.
The victim here is a helpless refugee whose only crimes is trying to make a better life for themselves by crossing the borders.
I don't think anybody disputes that.
We need to tell Europe they cannot do that.They cannot practice racism live
I really don't know what you mean by they cannot. The simple fact is that they can, and, again, the proof is in the fact that they do. All the time. We can, should, and must shout about that; but we ought to do more than just hope that shouting will bring about the desired effect.
And you'll find me shouting about Xenophobia and Isreal's Apartheid...and these immigrants.
And so you should, as should we all. But one hopes that there is a better plan than just shouting. As I have asked: what if the shouting has no effect?
Tell us to go and quickly develop our African countries is absolute total BS that your spew day in day out.
There you go again, getting carried away with emotion. What I say is simple. Let me break it down into easy parts:
(1) Racism is nasty. We should all object to it and shout about it. And the same goes for failure to help refugees drowning in the sea.
(2) But we must also consider that objections and shouting might have no effect. In such a case, it behooves us to take care of ourselves.
(3) Rather than just hoping that our shouting will have some effect on the Europeans, we ought to look into what to do at our end.
What I don't see in your proposals is any "back-up plan" in the event that the Europeans don't listen to the shouting and the "genuine Chinese help" does not work fast enough.
Development is not a pizza your order.
Indeed. But neither does it fall out of the sky. Nor is it handed out by others. One needs to work on it, for oneself.
World leaders should call out Europe racist immigration controls for what it is...abhorrent racism.
Absolutely. And if they don't? And if they do, but the calls have no effect? What then?
If they insist..we can also kick out their people or companies from Africa and Middle East. Kenya for starters has 100,000 British passport holders...20,000 americans...and name them.
This is where, again, I remind you that neither African governments nor the African Union seems to care the slightest bit about this issue. Where do you propose to start?
You want to kick all those Westerners out of Kenya over this? What gives you the idea that the Kenyan government has the slightest concern in the matter? (As it is, Kenyans are shedding grim tears over the drop in the number of Western tourists.) Please ease off on the emotion-accelerator, and return to the real world.
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You're going in cycles. Let me repeat. Condemning Europe's latest racism turn as right wing nuts take over is part of DOING something. Or you think they are dumb and deaf. What more do you want us to do 1) Either accelerate our development (improbable) or 2) Condemn.
I'm all for condemning them, and it is certainly part of doing something. And if the condemnation does not have the desired effect, then what? I hope the "something" is not all, and I urge more---from the other side. Which part of that do you find problematic?
Between (1) and (2): as I have stated before, tackle the human traffickers on the continent.
Africa is doing very well growing at 6% on average for the last 20yrs...
And yet here we are. Go stand on the shores of the Mediterranean and tell that to all those risking their lives to get into those boats; it is largely wasted on me.
I don't care much for "economic growth" that benefits a relatively small part of the populace but leaves the majority in dire straits. I'd rather hear about human development before I hear about this or that percent growth.
which is near what China and India are doing..
Perhaps I should, but I'm not particularly concerned with China or India. In this particular matter, all I see are the Africans dying.
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It has worked before and ought to work now. So do not worry. Africa growth is broad as reflected in all indices including human development.Don't equivocate when we ought to condemn racist drowning boats or failing to rescue folks.Italy has to figure out how to deal with messed up neighbours of magreb and middle east. I suggest they build a refugee camp like we did in Dadaab and Kakuma.
In any case any country however developed can wake up one day to find themselves refugees. Libya was developed but now it's gone. Syria. Egypt. Ukraine.Greece. Italy was recently facing a debt crisis..and it people would probably have taken boats to cross over to oil and gas rich middle east and magreb...were it not for wars and ISISs.
And if the condemnation does not have the desired effect, then what?
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It has worked before and ought to work now.
Again: "ought to work" does not mean "will work". My unanswered question: what if it doesn't?
Why is it so hard to get people to think of alternatives if things don't go the way they think they should or would like them to go? This is not a matter of religious faith. Why is it that you find unacceptable the idea of a "Plan B".
Last year, 3500 people died in that sea. (Which part of that includes "worked before"?) So far this year---and, looking at previous numbers, it's "early days"---it's already near 1800. When and how do you think it will "work"? What are the signs that give you optimism.
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There is no plan B that I can see other than appealing to sober Europeans to stop the right wing nut jobs. I cannot ask poor countries grappling with gazillion issues to deal with citizens bailing out for green pastures.I can only hope that more and more Africans will find opportunities within their borders. The plan A and B and C is for EU to come to their senses. They do not have to drown boats or look aside as boats capsize..they can do better.
Again: "ought to work" does not mean "will work". My unanswered question: what if it doesn't?
Why is it so hard to get people to think of alternatives if things don't go the way they think they should or would like them to go? This is not a matter of religious faith. Why is it that you find unacceptable the idea of a "Plan B".
Last year, 3500 people died in that sea. (Which part of that includes "worked before"?) So far this year---and, looking at previous numbers, it's "early days"---it's already near 1800. When and how do you think it will "work"? What are the signs that give you optimism.
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There is no plan B that I can see other than appealing to sober Europeans to stop the right wing nut jobs. I cannot ask poor countries grappling with gazillion issues to deal with citizens bailing out for green pastures.I can only hope that more and more Africans will find opportunities within their borders. The plan A and B and C is for EU to come to their senses. They do not have to drown boats or look aside as boats capsize..they can do better.
Those unfortunate people are simply doing what they feel they must do; there is no need to the governments to "deal" with them. But there are others who can be dealt with: the human traffickers.
Last night I took a look at the numbers who paid to "cross" last year and how much the average payment supposedly was. It is now near $1 billion per year and growing. Just on that sea. And it is organized. That, to my mind, is where the Plan B ought to start. Look at the routes and the starting points in particular countries, and try to work at that end.
Plan A and B and C, eh? Even at the best of times total reliance on the goodwill of others is always risky business. It is ridiculous if at the same time one also insists on "sovereign and independent and equal". And, given that mzungu generally has little use for mwafrika, in such cases it is simply foolish and dangerous.
"Appealing to sober Europeans" is all very well, as far as it goes---and that is not very far. But is there even much of an appeal? From where? What are African governments and the African Union saying on the matter? What have they said before?
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Termie,
A bazungu jetting here and thousands of illegal immigrants stretching your coast guard are eternities apart. There can't possibly be order out of this chaos. The negroes discard all their IDs so they can't be deported.
I wonder which country would entertain THOUSANDS of negroes attempting to breach its borders. I wonder what Kung Fu would do. Italy is exercising a lot of restraint; it's like a negro jumping infront of your speeding ride because they know when you hit them, you will feel sorry me take them to the best hospital where they will get free meals. This is MORAL BLACKMAIL, and it won't get negroes far
Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig. If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.
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Guys
I want to ask some rhetorical questions and mix them with self-righteous statements:
1. Would Europe have cut down of rescue services in the mediterranean sea to cause and force massive deterrent deaths if the boat occupants were blond white men, women and babies?
2. Would Australia have deployed her Sea, Land and Air Forces to tele-detect refugee boats, undertake high seas case processing, determine them as economic migrants and offload and ship them back home while sinking their boat on grounds that it "probably carried disease"?
3. Note that Australia still has a policy that favours white migrants but stringently opposes nay fights non-white migration. Extremely wealthy non-white people may settle if they pay a huge amount of a bribe called "investment". Ditto: New Zealand, Canada and many countries in Europe (varying degrees)
4. The adoption of White babies in Eastern Europe - Russia for blonds - is extremely sought after
5. Is Britain's so called fear of migrants from the EU islamophobia mixed with racism (directed at the Roma, Gypsies)?
6. How is the much feared flood of migrants helping the otherwise dead housing and property market in Western Europe
7. How has the said flood of migrants affected the cost of labor in Europe? Health Care? Senior Citizens Policy
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Yes I think we have be going round the real issue. The blatant racist inspired immigration policies we see in Western world (US&EU) and their colonial outposts. The fear amongst whites is that with their low birth rates and with Asians,Africans,Arabs,Latinos and name them increasing, they soon will be outnumbered in "their" countries. Africans [black people] I think have matched or overtaken white people..they both should be 1B or about. We will see more Isreal type of Apartheid going forward.
Guys
I want to ask some rhetorical questions and mix them with self-righteous statements:
1. Would Europe have cut down of rescue services in the mediterranean sea to cause and force massive deterrent deaths if the boat occupants were blond white men, women and babies?
2. Would Australia have deployed her Sea, Land and Air Forces to tele-detect refugee boats, undertake high seas case processing, determine them as economic migrants and offload and ship them back home while sinking their boat on grounds that it "probably carried disease"?
3. Note that Australia still has a policy that favours white migrants but stringently opposes nay fights non-white migration. Extremely wealthy non-white people may settle if they pay a huge amount of a bribe called "investment". Ditto: New Zealand, Canada and many countries in Europe (varying degrees)
4. The adoption of White babies in Eastern Europe - Russia for blonds - is extremely sought after
5. Is Britain's so called fear of migrants from the EU islamophobia mixed with racism (directed at the Roma, Gypsies)?
6. How is the much feared flood of migrants helping the otherwise dead housing and property market in Western Europe
7. How has the said flood of migrants affected the cost of labor in Europe? Health Care? Senior Citizens Policy
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That is nature of the beast. When Europeans had a population explosion they went abroad and killed many people including Indians, African, Red indians and Asians. There is population pressure on the rest of the world now..and Africans are not jumping the border to go and kill Italians..they are going there to look for jobs and opportunities to live.
I bet there are more white people living outside their ancestral home in Europe. Who is kicking out Italians in Malindi?
Your self-hate negro is indication you've got unresolved mental issues that requires more psychiatric help.
Termie,
A bazungu jetting here and thousands of illegal immigrants stretching your coast guard are eternities apart. There can't possibly be order out of this chaos. The negroes discard all their IDs so they can't be deported.
I wonder which country would entertain THOUSANDS of negroes attempting to breach its borders. I wonder what Kung Fu would do. Italy is exercising a lot of restraint; it's like a negro jumping infront of your speeding ride because they know when you hit them, you will feel sorry me take them to the best hospital where they will get free meals. This is MORAL BLACKMAIL, and it won't get negroes far
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These African immigrants are going to make money in Europe but if you look at the issue wholistically you will find that Europeans make more money from Africa than Africans remitt back home,therefore these barbaric acts of drowning boats and other inhuman immigration control tacts should be condemned in the strongest terms possible,
Without Prejudice.
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That is nature of the beast. When Europeans had a population explosion they went abroad and killed many people including Indians, African, Red indians and Asians. There is population pressure on the rest of the world now..and Africans are not jumping the border to go and kill Italians..they are going there to look for jobs and opportunities to live.
I bet there are more white people living outside their ancestral home in Europe. Who is kicking out Italians in Malindi?
I have aksd you again, how would ANY country respond to thousands upon thousands attempting to breach its borders? Helping them through? How would Kung Fu your beloved react? Would they be as welcoming? Worse is the IS in Libya that is scaring the hell out of Vatican
Nobody is opposed to immigration, all humans have migrated at some point in the past. But thousands swarming one beach line by the hour is the perfect definition of chaos
Your self-hate negro is indication you've got unresolved mental issues that requires more psychiatric help.
Moon Ki was right, keep your emotional rants off this debate
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Omorlo,
Your hypothetical questions are no different from aksin if the civil rights movement could have scored much more and much faster had the victims been Caucasians and not negroes.
Is there any country in the world that welcomes and helps thousands of illegal immigrants by the day across its borders?
Guys
I want to ask some rhetorical questions and mix them with self-righteous statements:
1. Would Europe have cut down of rescue services in the mediterranean sea to cause and force massive deterrent deaths if the boat occupants were blond white men, women and babies?
2. Would Australia have deployed her Sea, Land and Air Forces to tele-detect refugee boats, undertake high seas case processing, determine them as economic migrants and offload and ship them back home while sinking their boat on grounds that it "probably carried disease"?
3. Note that Australia still has a policy that favours white migrants but stringently opposes nay fights non-white migration. Extremely wealthy non-white people may settle if they pay a huge amount of a bribe called "investment". Ditto: New Zealand, Canada and many countries in Europe (varying degrees)
4. The adoption of White babies in Eastern Europe - Russia for blonds - is extremely sought after
5. Is Britain's so called fear of migrants from the EU islamophobia mixed with racism (directed at the Roma, Gypsies)?
6. How is the much feared flood of migrants helping the otherwise dead housing and property market in Western Europe
7. How has the said flood of migrants affected the cost of labor in Europe? Health Care? Senior Citizens Policy
-
This policy is inspired by fear. The moneyed industrialist in Italy makes use of cheap labor - be it on farms (milking buffaloes for Pizza cheese for the Mafia) or cheap Nigerian prostitutes for bonga bonga parties and old men long past their "bury-by" date. The trade unions in Europe have negotiated the people they employ in to unproductivity.
Note however that apart from a few countries, most of European countries like Kenya were no big on industrialization. So while Germany can rightly claim to have shade jobs in the Iron and Steel industry in the face of mechanization or is it robotization, Iceland, Ireland etc can not say the same. Others like Britain have seen their productivity go down as much of their industrialization transferred to Asia. Thus we have a seen non-productive "work" involving speculation and paper shuffling in the 90s to the 2008 catharsis. While the US has been recovering jobs by practically bribing industry to repatriate them home with low (zero) interests, Europe delayed in doing that and has only recently started. I believe the motivation was selfish in that the EU intended to shield itself from Greece. Thus we see quantitative easing albeit at higher interest rates than what the US Feds offered.
Pundit all this has caused uncertainty. Politicians have no answers to the growing unemployment. Spain has as high unemployment as Kenya if not worse. I have met spaniards all over Europe looking for employment. The biggest producer of white prostitutes in Europe is no longer Albania but Portugal. Portuguese unemployed are flocking back to Mozambique to work and this time with much greater humility! Exactly what their ancestors should have done and avoided years of suffering.
Let me end my rumbling by remind you guys that the British Empire collapsed because of RACISM. It could not institute democracy which it needed to survive. Democracy would transfer power to non whites. Rather than be ruled by non whites and having tried every model they could including setting up different kingdoms and empires within the empire, the end of the second world war, American pressure (the first to depart because of lack of democracy) the empire wound up.
Yes I think we have be going round the real issue. The blatant racist inspired immigration policies we see in Western world (US&EU) and their colonial outposts. The fear amongst whites is that with their low birth rates and with Asians,Africans,Arabs,Latinos and name them increasing, they soon will be outnumbered in "their" countries. Africans [black people] I think have matched or overtaken white people..they both should be 1B or about. We will see more Isreal type of Apartheid going forward.
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vooke¨
I am not sure there is enough space to list all of them. Here are samples:
1. Kenya - Has received thousands of ILLEGAL Migrant Somalis, South Sudanese, Ugandans, Rwandese, Burundians, Congolese, Ethiopians, etc over the years.
2. Pakistan - has hosted one of the world's largest influx of ILLEGAL Migrant Afghans, Iranians, Muhajiri Indians (1947), Bangladeshis (Bengals) etc
3. Tanzania - Thousands of Rwandan and Burundian Illegals
Omorlo,
Is there any country in the world that welcomes and helps thousands of illegal immigrants by the day across its borders?
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You know Omorlo, Italy is also admitting them, and they have thousands of economic refugees as it were. In the first 60 days of 2014, they received over 6,000. Presently, around 15% of its population are foreigners.The numbers keep growing. What the country would not do is ENCOURAGE the vice of illegal immigration by going out of its way to save those attempting to break its own Laws.
Interestingly, this Wikipedia source says most immigration into Italy is from Eastern Europe
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Italy
vooke¨
I am not sure there is enough space to list all of them. Here are samples:
1. Kenya - Has received thousands of ILLEGAL Migrant Somalis, South Sudanese, Ugandans, Rwandese, Burundians, Congolese, Ethiopians, etc over the years.
2. Pakistan - has hosted one of the world's largest influx of ILLEGAL Migrant Afghans, Iranians, Muhajiri Indians (1947), Bangladeshis (Bengals) etc
3. Tanzania - Thousands of Rwandan and Burundian Illegals
Omorlo,
Is there any country in the world that welcomes and helps thousands of illegal immigrants by the day across its borders?
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Your self-hate is clouding your judgement. Nobody likes refugees or foreigners. But we have to accept they are human (stop denigrading Africans by calling them negros..). We have Somali refugees, who scare a lot of kenyans coz of their ethnicity, religion and now terrorism..but should we lock our borders and probably send them hyenas to mull those trying to scale our wall. That is not acceptable.
We continue to welcome Somalis and condemn attempt by likes of WSR to criminalize refugees.
Italy will have to face this until Libya, Egypt,Middle east, Greece and rest of their neighbors across the Mediterranean get their act together.We do not choose our neighbours. We cannot send away poor women and kids running away from ISIS,poverty, wars and bombs...coz they do not look like us or have different religion.
Italy has received 6,000 :) :) big deal according to you? while we have received how many millions?
Nobody should be allowed to discriminate refugees based on their color or religion. The least Italy can do is to set a mega refugee camp in one of those beaches. Feed and clothe them..or well ask UN for help. Wait out till the refugees get somewhere to go...including back to their countries.
Or well pluck themselves out of Mediterranean seas...and go live somewhere else.
Stop the self-hate and you'll start see people as humans first. Vatican is not so special.
I have aksd you again, how would ANY country respond to thousands upon thousands attempting to breach its borders? Helping them through? How would Kung Fu your beloved react? Would they be as welcoming? Worse is the IS in Libya that is scaring the hell out of Vatican
Nobody is opposed to immigration, all humans have migrated at some point in the past. But thousands swarming one beach line by the hour is the perfect definition of chaos
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Considering what is going on up in North Africa, Middle East and Eastern Europe; They should brace themselves for more and more refugees. They can simply build a huge refugee camp and everyone will be happy..and slowly find ways to deal with that humanitarian crisis. They are not some special people who will be contaminated by refugees.
You know Omorlo, Italy is also admitting them, and they have thousands of economic refugees as it were. In the first 60 days of 2014, they received over 6,000. Presently, around 15% of its population are foreigners.The numbers keep growing. What the country would not do is ENCOURAGE the vice of illegal immigration by going out of its way to save those attempting to break its own Laws.
Interestingly, this Wikipedia source says most immigration into Italy is from Eastern Europe
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Italy
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Right it pure racism. And it will get worse for them because the minorities are going to breed and breed..and jump borders. They just need to simply accept that we are all human being, white, black or brown. Once they do that, I think everything will be alright. Whatever problems..economic or etc...will be resolved easily if they do not attempt crazy notions that some people are inferior and will lower the standards...of xyz.
This policy is inspired by fear. The moneyed industrialist in Italy makes use of cheap labor - be it on farms (milking buffaloes for Pizza cheese for the Mafia) or cheap Nigerian prostitutes for bonga bonga parties and old men long past their "bury-by" date. The trade unions in Europe have negotiated the people they employ in to unproductivity.
Note however that apart from a few countries, most of European countries like Kenya were no big on industrialization. So while Germany can rightly claim to have shade jobs in the Iron and Steel industry in the face of mechanization or is it robotization, Iceland, Ireland etc can not say the same. Others like Britain have seen their productivity go down as much of their industrialization transferred to Asia. Thus we have a seen non-productive "work" involving speculation and paper shuffling in the 90s to the 2008 catharsis. While the US has been recovering jobs by practically bribing industry to repatriate them home with low (zero) interests, Europe delayed in doing that and has only recently started. I believe the motivation was selfish in that the EU intended to shield itself from Greece. Thus we see quantitative easing albeit at higher interest rates than what the US Feds offered.
Pundit all this has caused uncertainty. Politicians have no answers to the growing unemployment. Spain has as high unemployment as Kenya if not worse. I have met spaniards all over Europe looking for employment. The biggest producer of white prostitutes in Europe is no longer Albania but Portugal. Portuguese unemployed are flocking back to Mozambique to work and this time with much greater humility! Exactly what their ancestors should have done and avoided years of suffering.
Let me end my rumbling by remind you guys that the British Empire collapsed because of RACISM. It could not institute democracy which it needed to survive. Democracy would transfer power to non whites. Rather than be ruled by non whites and having tried every model they could including setting up different kingdoms and empires within the empire, the end of the second world war, American pressure (the first to depart because of lack of democracy) the empire wound up.
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I suggest creating a UN body for Migration to tackle the problem. They could transfer people around based on the available space in the host countries. Countries like Italy with empty towns can take in a few millions. Those desolate US cities with rotting houses are better than the hovels in Mathare. They can fill up. Places in Northern England can take up up to 15 million.
This will give European economies the push they need to restore economic growth and create jobs. It would silence the xenophobes.
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Precisely. The world is big enough for everyone...except those who fear being "ruled" by others..who will bring "foreign" cultures and values. Europe need real leaders to shut down the ring wing nut jobs. Obama has been US PORK for 8 yrs and USA did not become a smaller country with smaller values..it become a great country.
I suggest creating a UN body for Migration to tackle the problem. They could transfer people around based on the available space in the host countries. Countries like Italy with empty towns can take in a few millions. Those desolate US cities with rotting houses are better than the hovels in Mathare. They can fill up. Places in Northern England can take up up to 15 million.
This will give European economies the push they need to restore economic growth and create jobs. It would silence the xenophobes.
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Guys
I want to ask some rhetorical questions and mix them with self-righteous statements:
1. Would Europe have cut down of rescue services in the mediterranean sea to cause and force massive deterrent deaths if the boat occupants were blond white men, women and babies?
2. Would Australia have deployed her Sea, Land and Air Forces to tele-detect refugee boats, undertake high seas case processing, determine them as economic migrants and offload and ship them back home while sinking their boat on grounds that it "probably carried disease"?
3. Note that Australia still has a policy that favours white migrants but stringently opposes nay fights non-white migration. Extremely wealthy non-white people may settle if they pay a huge amount of a bribe called "investment". Ditto: New Zealand, Canada and many countries in Europe (varying degrees)
4. The adoption of White babies in Eastern Europe - Russia for blonds - is extremely sought after
5. Is Britain's so called fear of migrants from the EU islamophobia mixed with racism (directed at the Roma, Gypsies)?
6. How is the much feared flood of migrants helping the otherwise dead housing and property market in Western Europe
7. How has the said flood of migrants affected the cost of labor in Europe? Health Care? Senior Citizens Policy
Omollo:
The essence of a large part of your questions appears to be that racism is involved. There is no doubt about that; generally mzungu does not care much for non-mzungu and especially blacks. Should the racism be condemned? Absolutely, and in the strongest possible terms. But in the meantime people are dying in that sea. What is to be done beyond condemning the racism and appealing to the "better" side of people?
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I suggest creating a UN body for Migration to tackle the problem. They could transfer people around based on the available space in the host countries. Countries like Italy with empty towns can take in a few millions. Those desolate US cities with rotting houses are better than the hovels in Mathare. They can fill up. Places in Northern England can take up up to 15 million.
This will give European economies the push they need to restore economic growth and create jobs. It would silence the xenophobes.
An interesting idea. But a couple of questions:
(a) What are the realistic chances of this "UN body for Migration", which moves people around according to whatever space it finds, happening? Which countries do you see as being ready to hand over their immigration policies to some UN body?
(b) In the very unlikely chance that anyone bought the idea, how long would it take to form and get working?
Going by past patterns, this year's deaths will reach a "record" high. A more urgent solution is needed, even as we wait for the "UN body for Migration".
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Yes, IOM already does that, though on a certain minimum level of course. Tracking migration and attempting to bring some kind of order to human migration I believe is its area of concern. The thing is, the powers will be forced to do more for poorer countries if they don't want immigration to keep happening. For starters, they can start by resisting the urge to destabilize Arab countries and not create millions of desperate refugees overnight. They can also relax some of those oppressive WTO systems and aid poor countries develop faster. Migration is human. No, it is biological. We can't tell the African not to immigrate any more than we call tell wildebeest not to follow the rains and green grass to Kenya when they go missing in TZ, so in a truly weird way, vooke is right- Making it unbearable might be the only way to stop it. (emphasis on "might") But just because something might work doesn't mean it should be done, the ends don't justify the means. Genocide can also help end some wars or problems but we would have to be nuts (or NAZI) to contemplate it as a solution. "Sustainable" migration is what we should aim for, to borrow the cliché. Brute force or cruelty cannot be the solution.
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Yes, IOM already does that, though on a certain minimum level of course. Tracking migration and attempting to bring some kind of order to human migration I believe is its area of concern.
I tend to think of IOM doing in immigration something like what Interpol does in policing, i.e. aiming to provide some sort of umbrella that makes national bodies etc. work better.
"IOM is dedicated to promoting humane and orderly migration for the benefit of all. It does so by providing services and advice to governments and migrants."
It is certainly a long way from what Omollo proposes that would put millions in empty Italian towns, 15 million in Northern England, etc.
The thing is, the powers will be forced to do more for poorer countries if they don't want immigration to keep happening.
Yes, in the long term that would be a much better approach.
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MK
Both you and Pundit have good ideas. This is a complex problem.
The key lies in identifying the reasons people move. In fact I should say poor people. Rich people move easily around the world. They are called variously tourists, investors, businessmen / businesswomen etc.
Poor people move because of all manner of problems associated with poverty. Whether they are the so called natural disasters or man made, the underlying cause is poverty. A cyclone hitting The Philippines inevitably kills the poor and destroys their hovels. It hardly makes a dent on a rich man's castle built on the high ground overlooking the slum.
Locally: Post election violence in Kenya was about poverty and the power of the Presidency as seen to ameliorate deprivation. We are seeing devolution beginning to calm the nerves with unbearable resistance from the National government and the tribes benefitting from the inequality of the pre-devolution period.
These are the issues to be addressed.
Note that people do not flee their own country until the inequalities are horrendous and near-"sinful". It is just a question of time before those South African Inkathas begin to mount boats in Durban port and head North and East. That is because of the huge inequalities between the rich and poor. I need not belabour the point. The large number of Nigerians among the migrants is enough to support that point. Nigeria is not poor. It is a highly unequal society.
Democracy or lack goes hand in glove with or without these inequalities. Societies that by and large "Equitable" where difference between citizens' incomes and wealth are not so pronounced are also likely to conduct free and fair elections whose results accurately reflect the will of the people. They are also the same countries that produce none or few migrants. Need I name Tanzania?
So I am saying it not about pumping huge sums of money in to these countries. The US did that with Mobutu's Zaire and we all know how that did end. Let us first learn how to harness the limited resources we have before we can take on more.
For instance if you are familiar with the "absorption capacity" principle, you will need no imagination to know that most of the cash now being pumped inn to Kenya by China will end up in private bank accounts. That is because any analysis will show that it cannot be absorbed by the country in the period that is provided - whatever they do!
But in the MEANTIME (I know you did single out the word): There is need for immediate emergency action to stem the deaths. If these people want to go to Europe and since many of them will be deported. The EU should set up camps all over Africa and Middle East where they can apply be screened and some taken in. It should not be a place to turn people away but to seriously consider their cases.
They should increase the search and rescue services (land, Sea and Air) to ensure that nobody dies.
Omollo:
The essence of a large part of your questions appears to be that racism is involved. There is no doubt about that; generally mzungu does not care much for non-mzungu and especially blacks. Should the racism be condemned? Absolutely, and in the strongest possible terms. But in the meantime people are dying in that sea. What is to be done beyond condemning the racism and appealing to the "better" side of people?
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Termie,
A bazungu jetting here and thousands of illegal immigrants stretching your coast guard are eternities apart. There can't possibly be order out of this chaos. The negroes discard all their IDs so they can't be deported.
I wonder which country would entertain THOUSANDS of negroes attempting to breach its borders. I wonder what Kung Fu would do. Italy is exercising a lot of restraint; it's like a negro jumping infront of your speeding ride because they know when you hit them, you will feel sorry me take them to the best hospital where they will get free meals. This is MORAL BLACKMAIL, and it won't get negroes far
Hehehe...show me one example of a European country that has lost out because of migrants and I will show you a flying pig. If a muzungu can go to Nairobi seeking opportunities(legal or otherwise) then he has no moral authority to stop the Negro from doing the same in his country.
One guy comes in a plane. Stays at an all expenses paid hotel. Then moves into a swanky residence. Doing nothing that locals can't do. Compensated at first world rates. Taking away from the economy.
The other guy comes with the clothes on his back. Is on his feet within no time. Doing work the locals would not be caught with their pants down doing. Adding to the economy.
This is how I understood you. That somehow it is okay for a muzungu to seek to improve himself at the expense of the African. But not the other way round. Because they are illegal.
You haven't shown me one country that has been brought to its knees by accepting and legalizing these Africans.
Kung Fu's people are themselves victims of traffickers. He does not exactly have to deal with the same problem Europe does.
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Bella, MK and Pundit
I will take it in one go.
MK is right, I am proposing something huge and revolutionary. The problem is huge and unheard of. People want to move and they will regardless of the measures taken. Smugglers are still taking people on planes and through airports despite all the security measures being taken. You can virtually move to any country illegally through legal routes (airports, sea ports, planes) if you pay enough ( if sounds silly it really is but true as well).
So to cut through it I have proposed that each country give quarters. The quarters should exceed the number of persons leaving the country.So if Italy is sending out 1 million yearly, it should take in 1.5 millions.
In addition to quarters, those cities and towns that have since become desolate should be offered to migrants.
Let me share some photos of Italian Ghost Cities (http://slowitaly.yourguidetoitaly.com/2013/10/ghost-towns-abandoned-villages-in-italy/): I am told there are more of the Ghost Cities in the US (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ghost_towns_in_the_United_States)
(http://yourguidetoitaly.com/slowitaly/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/poggioreale.jpg)
(http://yourguidetoitaly.com/slowitaly/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/celleno-vecchia.jpg)
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The large number of Nigerians among the migrants is enough to support that point. Nigeria is not poor. It is a highly unequal society.
This "highlights" one of the points I've been trying to make: Nigerians found in the water should be rescued, and racism against Nigerians should be condemned. But past that the underlying problem, which you correctly identify, can be solved only by Nigerians. (Even the short-term solution of dealing with human-traffickers can start with those in Nigeria.)
The EU should set up camps all over Africa and Middle East where they can apply be screened and some taken in. It should not be a place to turn people away but to seriously consider their cases.
What would they be screened for?
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Why they are running away and or using illegal means to get to Europe. Are they drug dealers? Prostitutes? terrorists? Or just people running away for dear life coz of war or threats on their lives. What sort of assistance do they need. What sort of countries would accept them?
Asking Africa to do something when the guy has a bucket list of 1 million items is plain laughable.
What would they be screened for?
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Poor choice of terms. The word evokes negative feelings .. like screening for Ebola, no!
Usually when you want only a certain number, there is a criteria which is developed and largely followed. One would need to examine every applicant to determine if he / she meets the criteria set for selection.
We have to do that often in Humanitarian Disasters to save as many lives as possible. In such cases we asses vulnerability. That means children, disabled, child headed households, women, the sick etc come first.
What would they be screened for?
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Exactly.
Why they are running away and or using illegal means to get to Europe. Are they drug dealers? Prostitutes? terrorists? Or just people running away for dear life coz of war or threats on their lives.
What would they be screened for?
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US ought to be a great example of an immigrant nation. But right leaning politician are spreading falsehoods and fear among-st developed nations.This has to be contested.
One guy comes in a plane. Stays at an all expenses paid hotel. Then moves into a swanky residence. Doing nothing that locals can't do. Compensated at first world rates. Taking away from the economy.
The other guy comes with the clothes on his back. Is on his feet within no time. Doing work the locals would not be caught with their pants down doing. Adding to the economy.
This is how I understood you. That somehow it is okay for a muzungu to seek to improve himself at the expense of the African. But not the other way round. Because they are illegal.
You haven't shown me one country that has been brought to its knees by accepting and legalizing these Africans.
Kung Fu's people are themselves victims of traffickers. He does not exactly have to deal with the same problem Europe does.
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I am suprised Italy and EU are getting away with murder. The notion that human traffickers are to blame doesn't wash. I think Australia have done a commendable job considering they vet those boats and send them to papau nee quinea. I do not care if they never reach Australia..but at least nobody dies.
Poor choice of terms. The word evokes negative feelings .. like screening for Ebola, no!
Usually when you want only a certain number, there is a criteria which is developed and largely followed. One would need to examine every applicant to determine if he / she meets the criteria set for selection.
We have to do that often in Humanitarian Disasters to save as many lives as possible. In such cases we asses vulnerability. That means children, disabled, child headed households, women, the sick etc come first.
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Asking Africa to do something when the guy has a bucket list of 1 million items is plain laughable.
You might consider it laughable, but I don't see anyone else doing that much to help; that is partly why we are having this debate. In the long run, Africa will have to do something; otherwise not much will change.
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EU and Western world will do something. Unless they've gone crazy.And they haven't. We just need to call them out.Africa just has too much problems to take on more responsibility of tracking down traffickers and monitoring their borders. This is either US or EU or UN or China.
You might consider it laughable, but I don't see anyone else doing that much to help; that is partly why we are having this debate. In the long run, Africa will have to do something; otherwise not much will change.
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Italy has some "deniability". She went against the entire EU in keeping the rescue boats running - though at a reduced scale. The EU deliberately cut down on rescue boats while deliberately knowing that it would lead to deaths.
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Let hope these 900 and 350 death will haunt them back to drawing board. These are needless death. I suspect these guys might even be drowning these boats. I once watched a documentary where Italian Immigration police have very strict quotas on illegals who land and get processed..for someone who will be fired...some of them can even drown boats.
And let us face it..Mediterranean sea is one of the world MOST peaceful sea that people were using rafters 3,000 yrs ago to cross.
The deaths are really fishy...even a leaky rickety boat should be able to cross from tunisia to italy...there is barely a tide in that sea.
Italy has some "deniability". She went against the entire EU in keeping the rescue boats running - though at a reduced scale. The EU deliberately cut down on rescue boats while deliberately knowing that it would lead to deaths.
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Poor choice of terms. The word evokes negative feelings .. like screening for Ebola, no!
No, there was no negative feeling on my part. My question has to do with screening, say, people who are purely economic refugees. Let's say they are screened, and it is confirmed that they are indeed poor, ill-educated, unskilled, with few prospects in their countries, etc. Then what? Do they get allowed in?
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Egypt just sent warships to Yemen to fight and cause more refugees. Israel has an navy as has Sudan, Kenya, South Africa, Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco. Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms. Why have they not done anything?
We have soldiers who wake up in the morning eat and then sleep.
Asking Africa to do something when the guy has a bucket list of 1 million items is plain laughable.
You might consider it laughable, but I don't see anyone else doing that much to help; that is partly why we are having this debate. In the long run, Africa will have to do something; otherwise not much will change.
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This is akin to pirates off somalia...the best our or africa navy can do is to accept to take in refugees as prisoners (which is problem considering many of them are running away from Africa)...running those warship day in day out..looking out for boats or pirates is not cheap. It had to take US, Chinese and EU to stop somali pirates.
Egypt just sent warships to Yemen to fight and cause more refugees. Israel has an navy as has Sudan, Kenya, South Africa, Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco. Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms. Why have they not done anything?
We have soldiers who wake up in the morning eat and then sleep.
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Egypt just sent warships to Yemen to fight and cause more refugees. Israel has an navy as has Sudan, Kenya, South Africa, Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco. Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms. Why have they not done anything?
Why indeed. It appears that they are not entirely without resources. Perhaps even as we rail against European racism we should also be asking our people that very question and denouncing their failure to do anything.
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Australian Racist Prime Minister just offered advice to Europe on how to deal with non-white immigrants: Stop the Boats (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/tony-abbott-tells-europe-to-stop-the-boats-like-australia-as-migrant-crisis-continues-10191566.html)
The irony of a likely descendant of a group convicts who wiped out local natives(they sent Tasmanians to extinction) making the suggestion on a question that does not concern his country is not lost on me.
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EU and Western world will do something.
Yes, they will do something. The questions are: (a) what and (b) if the "what" will have a long-term positive effect.
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Poverty should be included in the grounds for asylum. Most of the poverty in developing countries is politically motivated anyway. We can discuss who by if you like.
I could do a Post doctoral thesis on that with minimal sweat, if any. I am demanding a review of all current conventional thinking on the asylum institution. As you can clearly poverty is killing as many people as EJK, Boko Haram and Al Shabaab in Kenya and Nigeria alone. It is about facing the reality.
Besides if the idea is to repopulate those Ghost towns in Italy and US (among other places in the West) able bodied, law abiding people are best suited for that. Not that those able bodied with criminal records have no parallels in History: I mean as Termie reminds us, most Australians are descendants of some of the most violent criminals that this world has ever hosted! They had to chose between the hangman's noose and life in as a migrant in Australia.
Look at it from a different perspective: The West owes Africa. While they migrated on migrant ships to America, the blacks came on slave ships. 15 million Africans per European country (on average) appears a reasonable quarter. The Western would be welcome to equally make use of the African quarters and move some of their citizens who need the "Summer" African climate. It will not be for free. The UN Body would be more like a bourse only we shall exchange people
Poor choice of terms. The word evokes negative feelings .. like screening for Ebola, no!
No, there was no negative feeling on my part. My question has to do with screening, say, people who are purely economic refugees. Let's say they are screened, and it is confirmed that they are indeed poor, ill-educated, unskilled, with few prospects in their countries, etc. Then what? Do they get allowed in?
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Poverty should be included in the grounds for asylum. Most of the poverty in developing countries is politically motivated anyway. We can discuss who by if you like.
I could do a Post doctoral thesis on that with minimal sweat, if any. I am demanding a review of all current conventional thinking on the asylum institution. As you can clearly poverty is killing as many people as EJK, Boko Haram and Al Shabaab in Kenya and Nigeria alone. It is about facing the reality.
Besides if the idea is to repopulate those Ghost towns in Italy and US (among other places in the West) able bodied, law abiding people are best suited for that. Not that those able bodied with criminal records have no parallels in History: I mean as Termie reminds us, most Australians are descendants of some of the most violent criminals that this world has ever hosted! They had to chose between the hangman's noose and life in as a migrant in Australia.
Look at it from a different perspective: The West owes Africa. While they migrated on migrant ships to America, the blacks came on slave ships. 15 million Africans per European country (on average) appears a reasonable quarter. The Western would be welcome to equally make use of the African quarters and move some of their citizens who need the "Summer" African climate. It will not be for free. The UN Body would be more like a bourse only we shall exchange people
Omollo:
I have no "fundamental" problem with any of these ideas; I just wonder how they would work. In fact, I note that the Italian Prime Minister has in fact just tossed out the idea of some such camps in parts of Africa. I would have the same questions. Specifically, the initial ideas would involve something like working with the UN to determine "genuine refugees". That sort of language generally excludes, for example, the Nigerians that you mentioned---simple economic refugees.
Europe has certainly exploited Africa for a long, long time; so one may argue that Africans have every right to go there and get back some of it. I have no issues with such a view. Nor do I have any issues with the idea that both Africans and the Westerners would be better off if, say, vigorous Africans were to populate ghost towns in Italy, down-and-out parts of Northern England, the Detroits of the USA, and so forth. Even the "World Human Bourse" and poverty as grounds for asylum can be imagined.
My "problem" is this: I don't see any of that happening. I don't see any Western country---and hardly any other country---opening its borders to all comers solely on the basis that they are "able bodied, law abiding people". What's more, I don't see that changing solely on the basis that racism is to be condemned, there are "historical debts" of exploitation, and so forth. That being so, I prefer to focus on other approaches, even while appreciating all the good points made in other respects.
Regarding poverty: Here is something you wrote a few "postings" ago:
The large number of Nigerians among the migrants is enough to support that point. Nigeria is not poor. It is a highly unequal society.
(1) Folks like Pundit might say that Africans cannot be expected to fix this and that while they have so many problems, but who, then, is supposed to fix the problem of such inequities?
(Pundit is, of course, a "special case": Elsewhere on Nipate, he has stated that Africa is doing just fine---look at economic growth rates and other indicators---and, oddly enough, that most Africans suffer from self-inflicted wounds that they must fix for themselves without relying on governments, that fixing a place like Kenya just requires simple Mutua-like ideas, dot dot dot. First-Class Confusion.)
(2) If one is to be objective, then one ought to look at it from both sides. Should a European country allow any number of fleeing Nigerians as long as they are "able bodied, law abiding people"? One may argue "YES", on any number of grounds. But the hard, human fact is that people are going to say, "Nigeria is not poor; you folks just need to stop fucking up".
So, even as we imagine the most "progressive" solutions, we are living in the here-and-now, and imagination does not make the cold shower of reality any warmer.
15 million Africans per European country (on average) appears a reasonable quarter. The Western would be welcome to equally make use of the African quarters and move some of their citizens who need the "Summer" African climate.
An excellent idea. When do you suppose we would see the start of this?
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I see you're now busy stalking me. Nothing I have written is confusing. Just apply your brain if any. Africa has been growing. Africa can grow more. That doesn't mean Africa need to be part of every solution including human trafficking targeting European borders. That remain squarely a Europe problem.
You main problem is that your think because Africans are dying; so Africans need to be involved either as AU or Africa gov. I see human beings needing to do something about fellow human being sufferings. The EU leadership have to do this. And the reason..this is humanitarian crisis at the gates of EU..not an African crisis. EU leadership have to stop cowering to racist right wing and enact progressive immigration policies that treat all refugees fairly.
You can read Omollo for progressive ideas..if you can get past your defeatist attitude that racism has won and we should all become racist. That EU won't probably do nothing because those dying are Africans. What bollocks is that.
This issue would be an issue whether the refugees drowning were Chinese or Latinos...or Africans.
(1) Folks like Pundit might say that Africans cannot be expected to fix this and that while they have so many problems, but who, then, is supposed to fix the problem of such inequities?
(Pundit is, of course, a "special case": Elsewhere on Nipate, he has stated that Africa is doing just fine---look at economic growth rates and other indicators---and, oddly enough, that most Africans suffer from self-inflicted wounds that they must fix for themselves without relying on governments, that fixing a place like Kenya just requires simple Mutua-like ideas, dot dot dot. First-Class Confusion.)
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EU ministers who authorised budget cuts for scaling down of search and rescue missions should be charged with crimes against humanity
The hypocrisy needs to end...Poor Kenya can't be lectured on why it can't send away refugees due ti international obligations while EU & Us don't care about such obligations ....
It is also evident all these immigrants are coming from countries where EU & US have invested billions in war, armies, artilery, regime change schemes and all sort of despicable economic evils .....They are guilty as charged
mmmhhhhhh
Mediterranean Wave Forecast (WAM) http://isramar.ocean.org.il/isramar2009/wave_model/default.aspx?region=coarse&model=wam
And let us face it..Mediterranean sea is one of the world MOST peaceful sea that people were using rafters 3,000 yrs ago to cross.
The deaths are really fishy...even a leaky rickety boat should be able to cross from tunisia to italy...there is barely a tide in that sea.
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Yes this to mean remain a EU problem. We cannot deflect it to Africans or Arabs. The refugees are knocking their gates. They have to figure out a humanitarian response to that.
Regarding Mediterrian sea...I find it suspect that modern boats are sinking in a sea that people were using 3,000 yrs ago. Italy and those countries along that sea developed quickly precisely of that. It one of the easiest sea to navigate.
This calls for international investigations..somebody must be drowning those boats.
EU ministers who authorised budget cuts for scaling down of search and rescue missions should be charged with crimes against humanity
The hypocrisy needs to end...Poor Kenya can't be lectured on why it can't send away refugees due ti international obligations while EU & Us don't care about such obligations ....
It is also evident all these immigrants are coming from countries where EU & US have invested billions in war, armies, artilery, regime change schemes and all sort of despicable economic evils .....They are guilty as charged
mmmhhhhhh
Mediterranean Wave Forecast (WAM) http://isramar.ocean.org.il/isramar2009/wave_model/default.aspx?region=coarse&model=wam
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You missed something crucial: I have called for a fundamental and revolutionary review of the asylum institution. I am also calling for the proper and formal regularization of migration. There is no need to feed human traffickers. There are empty spaces in Ghost towns in Italy, US etc. Let us look at the world a truly borderless - real globalization not just economic globalization.
As we face global warming who knows who would need to run to Africa? We need to move towards a global free movement of humanity. What I have suggested as mild small baby steps towards that goal.
Omollo:
I have no "fundamental" problem with any of these ideas; I just wonder how they would work. In fact, I note that the Italian Prime Minister has in fact just tossed out the idea of some such camps in parts of Africa. I would have the same questions. Specifically, the initial ideas would involve something like working with the UN to determine "genuine refugees". That sort of language generally excludes, for example, the Nigerians that you mentioned---simple economic refugees.
Europe has certainly exploited Africa for a long, long time; so one may argue that Africans have every right to go there and get back some of it. I have no issues with such a view. Nor do I have any issues with the idea that both Africans and the Westerners would be better off if, say, vigorous Africans were to populate ghost towns in Italy, down-and-out parts of Northern England, the Detroits of the USA, and so forth. Even the "World Human Bourse" and poverty as grounds for asylum can be imagined.
My "problem" is this: I don't see any of that happening. I don't see any Western country---and hardly any other country---opening its borders to all comers solely on the basis that they are "able bodied, law abiding people". What's more, I don't see that changing solely on the basis that racism is to be condemned, there are "historical debts" of exploitation, and so forth. That being so, I prefer to focus on other approaches, even while appreciating all the good points made in other respects.
Regarding poverty: Here is something you wrote a few "postings" ago:
The large number of Nigerians among the migrants is enough to support that point. Nigeria is not poor. It is a highly unequal society.
(1) Folks like Pundit might say that Africans cannot be expected to fix this and that while they have so many problems, but who, then, is supposed to fix the problem of such inequities?
(Pundit is, of course, a "special case": Elsewhere on Nipate, he has stated that Africa is doing just fine---look at economic growth rates and other indicators---and, oddly enough, that most Africans suffer from self-inflicted wounds that they must fix for themselves without relying on governments, that fixing a place like Kenya just requires simple Mutua-like ideas, dot dot dot. First-Class Confusion.)
(2) If one is to be objective, then one ought to look at it from both sides. Should a European country allow any number of fleeing Nigerians as long as they are "able bodied, law abiding people"? One may argue "YES", on any number of grounds. But the hard, human fact is that people are going to say, "Nigeria is not poor; you folks just need to stop fucking up".
So, even as we imagine the most "progressive" solutions, we are living in the here-and-now, and imagination does not make the cold shower of reality any warmer.
15 million Africans per European country (on average) appears a reasonable quarter. The Western would be welcome to equally make use of the African quarters and move some of their citizens who need the "Summer" African climate.
An excellent idea. When do you suppose we would see the start of this?
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You missed something crucial: I have called for a fundamental and revolutionary review of the asylum institution. I am also calling for the proper and formal regularization of migration. There is no need to feed human traffickers. There are empty spaces in Ghost towns in Italy, US etc. Let us look at the world a truly borderless - real globalization not just economic globalization.
I did not miss any of it. I'm all for what Pundit calls your "progressive ideas": "fundamental and revolutionary review of the asylum institution", filling "empty spaces in Ghost towns in Italy, US etc.", a world that is "truly borderless", and so on and so forth. Excellent ideas, all of them. Truly excellent. Simply outstanding in sheer originality.
Just a couple of questions:
(a) When exactly do you see all this happening? (No need at present to go into who would start it and how the world would go about it. Just a rough estimate of the "when" will do.)
(b) If it is not in the near future, in which many more will be dying daily, any thoughts of what is to be done as we wait for the above world?
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The hypocrisy needs to end...Poor Kenya can't be lectured on why it can't send away refugees due ti international obligations while EU & Us don't care about such obligations ....
Which international obligations don't they care about? There are certain aspects of international law and agreements that deal with asylum seekers, and I'd be interested to know which ones are in question here.
EU ministers who authorised budget cuts for scaling down of search and rescue missions should be charged with crimes against humanity
Under what definition of "crimes against humanity" could that even be contemplated?
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EU leadership have to stop cowering to racist right wing and enact progressive immigration policies that treat all refugees fairly.
Now that you've stated it, I'm sure they will. I will, however, note that all countries make a distinction between economic refugees and those seeking refuge from war, political persecution, etc. So the first question some will ask is what does "fairly" mean. (See also my question to Omollo on the screening of economic refugees.)
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You main problem is that your think because Africans are dying; so Africans need to be involved either as AU or Africa gov. I see human beings needing to do something about fellow human being sufferings. The EU leadership have to do this. And the reason..this is humanitarian crisis at the gates of EU..not an African crisis. EU leadership have to stop cowering to racist right wing and enact progressive immigration policies that treat all refugees fairly.
You continue to let emotion get the better of you. Please try to calm down. Let me, again, explain some things for you:
(1) Omollo has, for example, pointed out that Nigeria is not a poor country and Nigerians on those boats are simply fleeing societal inequities. I've stated that that fundamental problem can be solved only by Nigerians. If you suggest otherwise, then I'd like to hear how the external world should solve the problems of inequities in Nigeria. It won't do to simply keep insisting that Africans have too many problems and can't be expected to do anything for themselves; nor will it do to keep repeating that China will solve it all.
(2) The simple fact is that European countries are not going to make major changes in their immigration policies any time soon. This hard fact should be taken into account after all the demands have been made for "progressive immigration policies".
In the interests of objectivity: As all sorts of claims and calls are made, we must keep in mind that since the start of 2014, the Italian government's claimed record is that it has taken about 200,000 people from those waters. Those people were then been processed in some standard manner. So one of the things that needs to happen in this debate is a dropping of the idea that someone is always happy to let these people drown.
Yes, all refugees must be treated fairly. But the fact is that all countries make a distinction between purely economic refugees and those fleeing war, political persecution, and so forth. (That is where the "international obligations" come in.) What's more, I don't see that changing any time soon.
That EU won't probably do nothing because those dying are Africans. What bollocks is that.
I stated above that I'm sure the EU will do something; they have in fact been doing a lot more than many on the African side. My question is whether the something will be of a sort that will result in long-term, positive solutions. Other than that, I've simply noted the rather obvious fact that racism against Africans (blacks) is part of mzungu make-up.
Something very important about such discussions: It is important to be aware of views on the other side, even if we don't agree with them. And this requires a calm and objective consideration. Of course, one can simply insist that this and that must be done, but for the matter to be handled properly, all views must be considered.
Here on Nipate, we might dismiss a view such as the following, but questions are being asked and comments are being made, and all these feed into whatever final action if taken. A competition to portray oneself as more "humanitarian" or "more teary" or whatever will not achieve much. Speaking of different, here's something from an African article I read just a short while ago ... and which attempts to look at both sides:
"But enough about Europe, which is not doing enough but at least is doing something. Africa, on the other hand, seems to be keeping very quiet.
The African Union communications department has been very busy lately, issuing statements on subjects as varied and diverse as the Sudanese elections; the killing of Ethiopian citizens by Isis in Libya; the xenophobic violence in South Africa; and the marketing of Africa’s Agenda 2063 to Polish investors. Nothing, however, on the boatloads of Africans risking everything to escape the continent. Nothing on the hundreds of corpses floating in the Mediterranean."
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2015-04-22-analysis-the-migrant-boat-crisis-is-not-just-europes-problem/#.VTlz7GdFAzt
(Others elsewhere have similar comments/questions, and some of those others are in a position to have a say as to what happens.)
To my mind, even if one disagrees with or finds such comments and questions distasteful, it is unwise to simply dismiss them without some hard, objective logic.
Similarly, while we can appreciate and praise novel ideas on how the world would be such a better place if all was shared equally and we all just got along as human beings, the rather unpleasant fact is that those who have and those who control---whether individuals or nations---are never keen on any equal sharing. On the contrary, the drive seems to be to have more than others. We can decry that, on whatever grounds, but that alone is insufficient.
In order not to get side-tracked some more, may I propose the following:
(a) We all agree that you and Omollo are great humanitarians, with very noble hearts and excellent ideas.
(b) We all agree that when it comes to such a tragedy, everything must be done by all. Further, we all agree that racism, right-wing sentiments, etc. are all to be condemned in the strongest possible terms.
(c) Given the projections of the numbers who might die in that sea this year, we then move to a discussion on what can be done this year and in the short term (to avoid an annual repeat).
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I have followed the tragedy since last summer and was one of those who opposed the cutting down for Search and Rescue resources.
In am for fundamental changes in the countries donating the refugees. That is why I take a combined hardline against social ills and positive suggestions of improvement of our own Kenya.
The proposals I make for new international or transnational consensus on the Asylum Institutions cannot realistically be brought to fruition in our lifetime. Others such as the use of quarters to minimize the burden on one country are gaining ground and may eventually be adopted by the EU after much fighting.
It would help if the AU also adopted the same and offered quarters to refugees. For example some countries like DRC may be poor and cannot afford to give everyone an apartment. But they are rich on land --- lots of land. A number of people running away because of the shortage of land would be quite at home with that.
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I have in addition proposed that Poverty be made a legitimate ground for asylum. So able bodied Nigerian young men can qualify to fill up those Ghost towns in Italy and US. Indeed the whole idea of saying "economic refugees" and pretending that one has therefore no further responsibility must end. In fact I dare add it will come to a screeching halt with the effects of global warming that are soon coming to the country near you.
Domestic solution or International?:
I think both. We have a duty to help ourselves within our countries. However just like South Korea (I have yet to post MK's response on that country!) told Japan instead of reparations, finance our infrastructure projects, Africa could get her act together. The period when The West could act out of guilt was allowed to lapse as we engaged in Mobutu-like debauchery and excesses.
Let us use our resources, mineral wealth, human capital etc to leverage the international community be it East or West. Pakistan three days ago signed a huge bilateral agreement with China to the shock of the US. Those projects will end insurgency in Pakistan long before drones do.
(1) Omollo has, for example, pointed out that Nigeria is not a poor country and Nigerians on those boats are simply fleeing societal inequities. I've stated that that fundamental problem can be solved only by Nigerians. If you suggest otherwise, then I'd like to hear how the external world should solve the problems of inequities in Nigeria. It won't do to simply keep insisting that Africans have too many problems and can't be expected to do anything for themselves; nor will it do to keep repeating that China will solve it all.
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If you examine the Geneva Convention and read the OAU Convention governing specific aspects of Refugees you would find that the latter goes much further than the GC! It has been praised and is now applied by non African countries first in their courts and reluctantly in their practices. Yet it drew laughter and derision when the Africans came up with it. It reflected the African values of kindness and neighborliness. Africa took a firm stand even when the refugee problem was not yet as acute as today. Lest I be mistaken, there are still very many countries that cannot touch it.
Indeed the European countries have come up with their own pacts with restrictive intentions.
What I am saying is that what I have "proposed" is nothing new. These are ideas that are now in free flow. People are rethinking the whole idea of building walls around their borders to lock out people and animals. Would you like to build a wall between Kenya and Tanzania to stretch the full length of the Masaai Mara?? We are inter-dependent.
What can Kenya do?
1. Unilaterally grant free movement of labor and people from Africa. No visas and unrestricted work permits (can charge minimal administrations fee);
2. Allow any refugee from any country the right of entry and care (by NGOs). No state money to be sued except on security
3. Allow Ethiopians wishing to transit to other countries freedom of movement as long as they have travel documents
4. No restrictions of trade licenses and ease of registration of businesses
5. Free access to medicine for all residents (must register and show tax compliance. Does not mean one has to pay taxes. Simply file tax returns even if unemployed). Those with income must join the NHIF
Now let anybody tell me what would go wrong with this and tell me why it has not broken Dubai
I did not miss any of it. I'm all for what Pundit calls your "progressive ideas": "fundamental and revolutionary review of the asylum institution", filling "empty spaces in Ghost towns in Italy, US etc.", a world that is "truly borderless", and so on and so forth. Excellent ideas, all of them. Truly excellent. Simply outstanding in sheer originality.
Just a couple of questions:
(a) When exactly do you see all this happening? (No need at present to go into who would start it and how the world would go about it. Just a rough estimate of the "when" will do.)
(b) If it is not in the near future, in which many more will be dying daily, any thoughts of what is to be done as we wait for the above world?
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Here is what the Europeans have now come up with, by way of "doing something":
Ten points
* Reinforce the Joint Operations in the Mediterranean, namely Triton and Poseidon, by increasing the financial resources and the number of assets. We will also extend their operational area, allowing us to intervene further, within the mandate of Frontex;
* A systematic effort to capture and destroy vessels used by the smugglers. The positive results obtained with the Atalanta operation should inspire us to similar operations against smugglers in the Mediterranean;
* EUROPOL, FRONTEX, EASO and EUROJUST will meet regularly and work closely to gather information on smugglers modus operandi, to trace their funds and to assist in their investigation;
* EASO to deploy teams in Italy and Greece for joint processing of asylum applications;
* Member States to ensure fingerprinting of all migrants;
* Consider options for an emergency relocation mechanism;
* A EU wide voluntary pilot project on resettlement, offering a number of places to persons in need of protection;
* Establish a new return programme for rapid return of irregular migrants coordinated by Frontex from frontline Member States;
* Engagement with countries surrounding Libya through a joined effort between the Commission and the EEAS; initiatives in Niger have to be stepped up.
* Deploy Immigration Liaison Officers (ILO) in key third countries, to gather intelligence on migratory flows and strengthen the role of the EU Delegations.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-4813_en.htm
Nothing major there. There might be a change in numbers accepted, but even there the wording should be carefully noted: something seemingly favourable for "persons in need of protection", but the "rapid return of irregular migrants".
I see more young, able Africans continuing to die in those waters.
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I have in addition proposed that Poverty be made a legitimate ground for asylum. So able bodied Nigerian young men can qualify to fill up those Ghost towns in Italy and US. Indeed the whole idea of saying "economic refugees" and pretending that one has therefore no further responsibility must end.
Yours is indeed a noble proposal. And of course, there "must" be an end to the "pretending". In the meantime, in the real world of real realities, the EU's plan is that "irregular migrants"---you will be happy to note that they are not "economic refuges"---are to be sent back just as soon as they have recovered from their time in the water.
So it will probably be some time before "able bodied Nigerian young men ... fill up those Ghost towns in Italy and US".
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The period when The West could act out of guilt was allowed to lapse as we engaged in Mobutu-like debauchery and excesses.
Let us use our resources, mineral wealth, human capital etc to leverage the international community be it East or West.
Exactly. Whatever mzungu took, he's not going to give it all back. Whatever mess he made, he's not going to undo all of it. And wailing about how we are "owed" won't change anything. There's just one the path to real change.
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If you examine the Geneva Convention and read the OAU Convention governing specific aspects of Refugees you would find that the latter goes much further than the GC! It has been praised and is now applied by non African countries first in their courts and reluctantly in their practices. Yet it drew laughter and derision when the Africans came up with it. It reflected the African values of kindness and neighborliness.
There are grounds on which the claims you make can be argued against, but we need not dwell on that. More pertinent:
(a) What exactly has the AU done about this now-annual Mediterranean Tragedy? What has it even attempted to do? As has been asked: what has it even said about this latest "event"?
(b) Looking at the mayhem all over the continent, where can we today find convincing evidence of this "African values of kindness and neighborliness"? From South Africa, the great word of our times is "ubuntu". Where is the "ubuntu" there right now?
OAU, AU, whatever it will be called next ... at some time there need to be a movement from grand Vision-2030 type of paperwork---and the AU churns them out 24/7, 365/per---to actual practice.
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:(
(http://gadocartoons.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Feb-20-15-AU-reacts-to-the-news-of-Fleeing-African-Migrants-dying-in-the-sea-1024x757.jpg)
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MK
I can't hold brief for the AU. However what do you think they should do? What do you believe they could have done and did not?
Note the following:
1. The tragedy is unfolding in the borders of
(a) Countries that are nominal AU members such as Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Morocco etc. These countries first and foremost identify themselves as Arab and not African even though we share the same continent. You probably recall Morocco refusing to host football on spurious reasons of Ebola carrying Africans;
(b) The waters and territories of Europe.
2. Whichever way you look at it, Nigeria is far off has her hands full of Boko Haram; Most of the refugee donating countries are themselves engulfed in serious problems. Mali can do zilch.
3. Yes, I have said before that these problems emanate inside Africa. It does not mean that Africa should solve every stage of the problem. The problems at the source could be addressed by the African states. Ethiopia could do something about Poverty especially you unemployment. As you know that kind of problem cannot be solved overnight
4. Europe as has been pointed out has a responsibility to deal with the problem of migrants. It is their problem as long as it is happening within their sphere of influence.
5. Europe should deal with the migrant issue without complaints. They should be grateful to Africa donating so many young able bodied men and women. They do not have to reenact the Slave Trade era to get replacement for a dwindling and ageing population that needs care-givers. Let them educate their people about the need for migrants and change the fear and xenophobia to a welcoming attitude. That is the only way they can save those Ghost towns. If not the Africans and Asians will still enter the towns and cities which would be empty.
There are grounds on which the claims you make can be argued against, but we need not dwell on that. More pertinent:
(a) What exactly has the AU done about this now-annual Mediterranean Tragedy? What has it even attempted to do? As has been asked: what has it even said about this latest "event"?
(b) Looking at the mayhem all over the continent, where can we today find convincing evidence of this "African values of kindness and neighborliness"? From South Africa, the great word of our times is "ubuntu". Where is the "ubuntu" there right now?
OAU, AU, whatever it will be called next ... at some time there need to be a movement from grand Vision-2030 type of paperwork---and the AU churns them out 24/7, 365/per---to actual practice.
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MK
I can't hold brief for the AU. However what do you think they should do? What do you believe they could have done and did not?
For a start they could even just say something. Acknowledge the problem. They could then move to starting to consider how to deal with it; after all, they employ plenty of people whose job supposedly is to come up solutions to African problems.
Just a short while ago on this thread, you made some interesting comments and asked an interesting question. That was this:
Egypt just sent warships to Yemen to fight and cause more refugees. Israel has an navy as has Sudan, Kenya, South Africa, Tunisia, Algeria and Morroco. Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms. Why have they not done anything?
We have soldiers who wake up in the morning eat and then sleep.
Perhaps a reflection on that, which you wrote, will help you find the answers that you seek. For example, when you say that "Nigeria is far off has her hands full of Boko Haram", you should weigh it against your statement that "Nigerian warships are used to smuggle oil and arms."
Looking at your list, one would get the impression that the AU and the whole of Africa cannot do anything about any of this. One hopes that is surely not the case. For starters, some of the major human-trafficking routes used in this business start in Accra, Lagos, Nairobi, and Addis Ababa; one thing that could be done is to disrupt the human traffickers at those very points.
Europe should deal with the migrant issue without complaints. They should be grateful to Africa donating so many young able bodied men and women. They do not have to reenact the Slave Trade era to get replacement for a dwindling and ageing population that needs care-givers. Let them educate their people about the need for migrants and change the fear and xenophobia to a welcoming attitude. That is the only way they can save those Ghost towns. If not the Africans and Asians will still enter the towns and cities which would be empty.
That is all correct. Absolutely. The problem is that people don't always act or see things the way we think they should. So while you insist on what the EU should do, and you plan a UN Body For Migration that will fill their ghost towns, they have declared that they will accelerate on returning the "irregular migrants".
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MK
About what the AU saying something: The AU is a pure talking shop.Read Austin Bukenya's The People Bachelor to get an idea. Bukenya pillories the body in a way few writers have done. So if you wait just until the next "summit" there will be enough hard hitting resolutions. I guess this one is not as urgent as the ICC to convene an emergency summit. Unless some criminal has captured a state and is willing to sponsor the emergency summit with tax payers money!
ACTION: I admit I did state that Africa could do something - even send naval boats that are now being used to ferry contraband. It is not just Nigeria, even the Kenyan Navy is ferrying contraband from Kismayo to Mtongwe and in to the open market and vice versa.
On closer examination, I formed the opinion that sending African Navies to the mediterranean would simply expand their money making schemes. They would help the smugglers and not end the menace. Call me prejudiced but I am going with the existing record. I think African countries should not be involved in this rescue at all.
UN Body: I note that you are making fun of the idea. It is quite in order. I will however correct you:
1. The Proposed International Body to regulate Migration quarters would deal with a problem that is there and solutions that are being practised both legally and illegally. People are still migrating both legally and illegally. It is a call to realism and pragmatism
2. The reference to Ghost Cities: I could have chosen to be academic and churn demographic charts and figures. The point is that there is population decline in some parts of the world while there is an explosion in others. When I was in primary school I read somewhere: Water finds its own level. I want to say whether these countries with Ghost towns want it or not, those empty spaces will fill up. Why not be pragmatic and do it in an organized way? For example how long do you give Australia before it becomes a regular Asian country? The whites over there have resorted to draconian tactics to keep their country white but it will not work unless each white woman starts bearing 11 children for the next 50 years.
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Omollo:
You state that your proposed UN body is
It is a call to realism and pragmatism.
The way your proposed body would work is that it would, essentially, require countries to hand over the immigration policies to the UN. What is the likelihood of that happening? I also asked you about a suggested time frame for your UN body to come into action ...
By the way, I actually do agree with you that the world can and ought to do a better job in dealing with migration. What I don't see is any quick fixes.
On "ghost cities", population levels, water finding its own level, etc:
Populations declining in some places while populations explode in others is not new. But it does not necessarily lead to a balancing in "filling empty spaces". Places like India, the Philippines, and so on, have allowed their populations to explode; but while there are more of their citizens in different places around the world, the majority are still suffering in the native country. China, on the other hand, simply forced water to its own level: one-child policy.
I have no "fundamental" issue with your proposal to use hardly Africans to "whole-sale" fill up "ghost cities" in Europe and elsewhere; in fact, I've already stated that it would be beneficial to both sides. The question is this: what are the realistic chances of that happening?
For example how long do you give Australia before it becomes a regular Asian country?
I have no idea, although I have looked at their overall immigration figures. When do you think that might happen, and on what basis do you think that? More importantly, how would that improve the world's "population balance"?
African Navies to the mediterranean would simply expand their money making schemes. They would help the smugglers and not end the menace. Call me prejudiced but I am going with the existing record. I think African countries should not be involved in this rescue at all.
No, I would not call you prejudiced; the hard facts probably support your view. But here is what we have now from the above:
* The Europeans are being called on to discharge their "moral obligations", denounce racism, have been accused of crimes against humanity over the deaths and so on, and so forth ...
* The Africans on the other hand are not only doing bugger-all, but, it is suggested, should actually stay away because they would only make the problems worse. (It brings to mind irresponsible children who should "go play" and let the grown-ups get on with sorting out things.)
There is an "issue" there, and it will not be lost on the citizens of Europe (and they have some say in the policies of their governments).
At the end of the day, here's my view in a nutshell:
* The people dying in those waters are Africans. Mostly young African men in their prime.
* The tears being shed---by family, friends, and other loved ones---are mostly African tears, in Africa.
* Whatever the loss is, it is mostly an African one. I don't see Europe as suffering any noteworthy negative effects.
Given all that, and regardless of what roles and responsibilities Europeans have in the matter, there has to be a time when it is recognized as an African Problem. And if it is an African Problem, then the solution too will have to be an African Solution. Until then, it is Africa that will continue to lose.
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Omollo:
You state that your proposed UN body is
It is a call to realism and pragmatism.
The way your proposed body would work is that it would, essentially, require countries to hand over the immigration policies to the UN. What is the likelihood of that happening? I also asked you about a suggested time frame for your UN body to come into action ...
By the way, I actually do agree with you that the world can and ought to do a better job in dealing with migration. What I don't see is any quick fixes.
On "ghost cities", population levels, water finding its own level, etc:
Populations declining in some places while populations explode in others is not new. But it does not necessarily lead to a balancing in "filling empty spaces". Places like India, the Philippines, and so on, have allowed their populations to explode; but while there are more of their citizens in different places around the world, the majority are still suffering in the native country. China, on the other hand, simply forced water to its own level: one-child policy.
I have no "fundamental" issue with your proposal to use hardy Africans to "whole-sale" fill up "ghost cities" in Europe and elsewhere; in fact, I've already stated that it would be beneficial to both sides. The question is this: what are the realistic chances of that happening?
For example how long do you give Australia before it becomes a regular Asian country?
I have no idea, although I have looked at their overall immigration figures. When do you think that might happen, and on what basis do you think that? More importantly, how would that improve the world's "population balance"?
African Navies to the mediterranean would simply expand their money making schemes. They would help the smugglers and not end the menace. Call me prejudiced but I am going with the existing record. I think African countries should not be involved in this rescue at all.
No, I would not call you prejudiced; the hard facts probably support your view. But here is what we have now from the above:
* The Europeans are being called on to discharge their "moral obligations", denounce racism, have been accused of crimes against humanity over the deaths, and so on, and so forth ...
* The Africans on the other hand are not only doing bugger-all, but, it is suggested, should actually stay away because they would only make the problems worse. (It brings to mind irresponsible children who should "go play" and let the grown-ups get on with sorting out things.)
(There is an "issue" there, and it will not be lost on the citizens of Europe, and they have some say in the policies of their governments.)
The same sort of vigorous criticism that has been thrown at European governments also should be thrown at African governments. It cannot be simply accepted that the latter are so hopeless and incompetent that they must be left alone .
At the end of the day, here's my view in a nutshell:
* The people dying in those waters are Africans. Mostly young African men in their prime.
* The tears being shed---by family, friends, and other loved ones---are mostly African tears, in Africa.
* Whatever the loss is, it is mostly an African one. I don't see Europe as suffering any noteworthy negative effects.
Given all that, and regardless of what roles and responsibilities Europeans have in the matter, there has to be a time when it is recognized as an African Problem. And if it is an African Problem, then the solution too will have to be an African Solution. Until then, it is Africa that will continue to lose.
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The only way to prevent the deaths of these immigrants is to stop them boarding the boats in Libya from where they embark on these perilous trans-Mediterranean voyages.
Additionally, I have yet to hear of an Extraordinary Summit of the AU designed to address the plight of these wretched souls from the dark continent (I draw a distinction from the Afghan, Iraqi or Syrian refugees).
The push factors forcing them out of Africa must first and foremost be addressed by the leaders of in-dependent and sovereign African countries.
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The only way to prevent the deaths of these immigrants is to stop them boarding the boats in Libya from where they embark on these perilous trans-Mediterranean voyages.
Additionally, I have yet to hear of an Extraordinary Summit of the AU designed to address the plight of these wretched souls from the dark continent (I draw a distinction from the Afghan, Iraqi or Syrian refugees).
The push factors forcing them out of Africa must first and foremost be addressed by the leaders of in-dependent and sovereign African countries.
Observing what is going on with the hordes of immigrants in Calais who are attempting to cross the Channel to the UK -- it's worth asking whether France and the UK are at risk of losing sovereignty over their immigration policy.
Where is the beloved People's Republic of China to take in these poor souls, especially their African friends.
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Continuing:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737
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The only people I feel for are those from war-torn lands - Libya, Somalia, South Sudan. Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But invariably you see quotes from Ethiopia, Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. There is always the question of how someone fleeing war in Somalia manages to reach the Mediterranean Sea by road without finding safety somewhere in between. Few of these victims are genuine war refugees... economy is the driver.
I agree with your sentiment: ultimately Africa must solve her own internal problems, little by little. The same for the Middle East. The right wing is taking over Europe and threatening to tear EU apart over immigration - even intra-EU! Tough luck getting help from them.
Continuing:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737
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The only people I feel for are those from war-torn lands - Libya, Somalia, South Sudan. Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But invariably you see quotes from Ethiopia, Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. There is always the question of how someone fleeing war in Somalia manages to reach the Mediterranean Sea by road without finding safety somewhere in between. Few of these victims are genuine war refugees... economy is the driver.
I agree with your sentiment: ultimately Africa must solve her own internal problems, little by little. The same for the Middle East. The right wing is taking over Europe and threatening to tear EU apart over immigration - even intra-EU! Tough luck getting help from them.
Continuing:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737)
You'll be amazed at the types of people you find among "refugees". I once met a full blooded Zulu who had somehow arrived here through Kakuma in Kenya.
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The only people I feel for are those from war-torn lands - Libya, Somalia, South Sudan. Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan. But invariably you see quotes from Ethiopia, Egypt, Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc. There is always the question of how someone fleeing war in Somalia manages to reach the Mediterranean Sea by road without finding safety somewhere in between. Few of these victims are genuine war refugees... economy is the driver.
I agree with your sentiment: ultimately Africa must solve her own internal problems, little by little. The same for the Middle East. The right wing is taking over Europe and threatening to tear EU apart over immigration - even intra-EU! Tough luck getting help from them.
Continuing:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-36071737)
You'll be amazed at the types of people you find among "refugees". I once met a full blooded Zulu who had somehow arrived here through Kakuma in Kenya.
That is OK by me -- get to Canaan but don't die trying. My disgust is at the hotblooded Zulu zenithly found floating headfast in the sea.
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Looks like around 700 this week:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/29/700-migrants-feared-dead-mediterranean-says-un-refugees
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In the old days they were dragged kicking and screaming into slave ships. Today, 700 drownings cannot convince them to stay. That is only 5.3% of 13,000 after all.
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In the old days they were dragged kicking and screaming into slave ships. Today, 700 drownings cannot convince them to stay. That is only 5.3% of 13,000 after all.
Don't forget the "lucky" few who get to fly economy class to the land of milk and honey, escaping the same thing.