On Suffering, lessons from ancient Christians

[kadame]

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I just remembered that a good number of early Christian gentiles were slaves. In ancient Rome, slavery was practiced especially by the nobility, as a normal part of life. But because Christianity, quite uniquely, did not recognize worldly status as important, the lowest of the low in that society found a place in the faith. That is how Christianity eventually found its way to Roman nobility in spite of severe persecutions. It was because these ancient high class had Christians living in their households as slaves unbeknownst to them. They could tell some of these slaves were not ordinary people from their lives and were attracted to that special thing that was inside these people despite their low status--someway somehow, slaves led their masters to the faith. I remember reading about many Christian martyrs who had been members of the nobility and were killed when discovered to be Christian, including one who was the wife of the emperor, and almost all of them had discovered the faith through a slave. So for those of us who think worldly status or wealth has any connection to Christian faithfulness or joy, I would encourage you to read up on ancient Christian martyrs, who were from the highest class (nobility/high-born) and the lowest class (slaves).  You can start here http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/gladiators/martyrdom.html

Also from the NIV, in Romans 8,

have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

[vooke]

Thank you kadame/ka-quail
This just serves to prove that there is NO inconsistency between Christianity and poverty,which needs to be denied using all illogic. It is extremely insulting to the poor to imply that somewhat wherever they @ has something to do with their level of faith,ignorance or curse.

We will be transformed and these vile corruptible bodies shall be clothed with the incorruptible glorified bodies just like Jesus- 1 Cor 15:50-54. It is vain to attempt to live glorified lives in our present state. Reality hits you like a hammer. Many Christians have lost their faith out of this erroneous teaching and I don't envy the purveyors of this doctrine when they stand before Jesus on judgement day

[kadame]

You're welcome, vooke.

From: http://www.earlychurch.com/unconditional-love.php

A Love Without Condition - Early Church HistoryWe who used to value the acquisition of wealth and possessions more than anything else now bring what we have into a common fund and share it with anyone who needs it. We used to hate and destroy one another and refused to associate with people of another race or country. Now, because of Christ, we live together with such people and pray for our enemiesHe impoverishes himself out of love, so that he is certain he may never overlook a brother in need, especially if he knows he can bear poverty better than his brother. He likewise considers the pain of another as his own pain. And if he suffers any hardship because of having given out of his own poverty, he does not complain.When a devastating plague swept across the ancient world in the third century, Christians were the only ones who cared for the sick, which they did at the risk of contracting the plague themselves. Meanwhile, pagans were throwing infected members of their own families into the streets even before they died, in order to protect themselves from the disease.

That was status/wealth, but how about ancient Christians and health? Did ancient Christians know disease? I would encourage people to read on the ancient plagues called the Cyprian and Antonine plagues that decimated European populations.   

This is a summary on one of them

"In the middle of the third century, a plague spread through much of the Roman Empire. The illness was so lethal and so contagious that in just one day five thousand died from it in Rome. The plague was similarly catastrophic in Alexandria, Egypt. Frightened by the disease, many of the pagan residents abandoned those among them stricken with it, casting them into the streets to die alone. The dead were left unburied, filling the city with the stench of death. Amid these horrors, many of Alexandria?s persecuted Christians, the clergy and the laity, voluntarily came forward to nurse the dying pagans as well as their own plague victims. These Christians knew the grave danger of contagion to which they were exposing themselves. Many contracted the plague from those they had tended. The bishop of Alexandria who recorded these events, Saint Dionysius, regarded the Christians who died from the plague in this manner as virtual martyrs of Christian charity in having sacrificed their lives to nurse those who had persecuted them. "

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=6018

While the pagans abandoned their own, even their children, parents, put them outside the house on the streets and even ran from the city to avoid the plague, Christians stayed behind to tend to the sick, both Christian sick ones and abandoned pagan sick ones who had persecuted them before the outbreak of the disease. So the disease did not discriminate, apparently. And they did this at the risk of their own lives and many of them in fact did get the disease and died, and for this reason were considered martyrs by the ancient church, for having given up their lives for the sake of others as Jesus had said "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man should lay down his life for his friends". This Christian sacrifice is considered among the main reasons for the spread of Christianity in the ancient world. And no wonder..it was love in action.

[kadame]

The Christians of old show that Christianity does not esteem worldly status or wealth as anything of value. What matters in the end is one's inner wealth and status before God. In fact, worldliness is precisely to esteem these earthly things as if they are ends in themselves and judging peoples worth based on such shallow standards. Nowhere in the New Testament is material wealth proclaimed as something that Christianity concerns itself with, except to press the duty to share it with those who have need of it. In fact, wealth is really nothing to boast about. Think about it, it doesn't make you any holier than the next person and if you have it, you have a greater burden to share it and if you are selfish with it, you will give an account for every last penny of it to the person who really owns it, for you are a mere borrower. Jesus even shows that it can be an obstacle to one's salvation and if we are honest, looking around our own world today, at the rich and mighty, we will see that there is truth to that. Hence, if we have it, while we should be grateful for it, we must be extra careful lest we end up getting proud and placing our trust in our possessions thinking that they are our assurance in this life or that they make us special. We also have to make sure we never turn away those God brings to us who have need of it. 

[bittertruth]

I don't think suffering in Christianity is limited to the poor. Suffering is for all humanity. Both the rich and poor suffer.
vooke says this proves that there is NO inconsistency between Christianity and poverty.
But neither do I see any inconsistency between Christianity and prosperity.

[vooke]

Negro,
That's the point! Wealth is no barometer of spirituality. So you can't look down on the have-nots or parade your millions as some manifestation of your super-spirituality or faith

Thank you Lord Jesus for revealing this to this negro


Poverty is ONE of the forms of suffering

I don't think suffering in Christianity is limited to the poor. Suffering is for all humanity. Both the rich and poor suffer.
vooke says this proves that there is NO inconsistency between Christianity and poverty.
But neither do I see any inconsistency between Christianity and prosperity.

[bittertruth]

conclusion: poverty is no piety nor is wealth wickedness.

Negro,
That's the point! Wealth is no barometer of spirituality. So you can't look down on the have-nots or parade your millions as some manifestation of your super-spirituality or faith

Thank you Lord Jesus for revealing this to this negro


Poverty is ONE of the forms of suffering

I don't think suffering in Christianity is limited to the poor. Suffering is for all humanity. Both the rich and poor suffer.
vooke says this proves that there is NO inconsistency between Christianity and poverty.
But neither do I see any inconsistency between Christianity and prosperity.

[vooke]

Wickedness is promising wealth to poor Christians on account of their giving to church aka prosperity gospel

What took you so long to draw conclusion on matters which was not in contention all along?

conclusion: poverty is no piety nor is wealth wickedness.

[kadame]

conclusion: poverty is no piety nor is wealth wickedness.

That is true, but it can be said the other way as well: wealth is no piety nor is poverty wickedness. 

[veritas]

I don't think economic status matters in Christianity.

[bittertruth]

That's exactly what anti-prosperity proponents need to hear. They think poverty is more Godly and prosperity less Godly.

I don't think economic status matters in Christianity.

[veritas]

Yep. What's wrong with being rich? Anyone can be poor but being rich takes effort. I don't see how at all it relates to personal belief systems. Why would God want anyone to be dirt poor if you don't have to be. If richness is making you morally corrupt then be poor. But King Solomon etc. they served God as the richest people in the world.

[bittertruth]

Amen. God bless.

Yep. What's wrong with being rich? Anyone can be poor but being rich takes effort. I don't see how at all it relates to personal belief systems. Why would God want anyone to be dirt poor if you don't have to be. If richness is making you morally corrupt then be poor. But King Solomon etc. they served God as the richest people in the world.

[veritas]

Thank you kindly.

[vooke]

I haven't met any anti-prosperity proponent. But I have met many deluded negroes who believe tithing and offering is a sure ticket to immense wealth.

That's exactly what anti-prosperity proponents need to hear. They think poverty is more Godly and prosperity less Godly.

I don't think economic status matters in Christianity.

[bittertruth]

That's one side of the story, so what did you tell them about vookes view on tithes and offerings?

I haven't met any anti-prosperity proponent. But I have met many deluded negroes who believe tithing and offering is a sure ticket to immense wealth.

That's exactly what anti-prosperity proponents need to hear. They think poverty is more Godly and prosperity less Godly.

I don't think economic status matters in Christianity.

[vooke]

I met bittertruth and hammered the truth down through his indoctrinated skin that he has been conned by Pious Fraudsters

That's one side of the story, so what did you tell them about vookes view on tithes and offerings?