Author Topic: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?  (Read 58991 times)

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2014, 01:01:31 PM »
vooke,
Generally, believers live longer, happier and healthier lives and even have better career prospects. Going to church and praying has huge benefits.

I think Church goers generally are much more  conservative and tend to restrain themselves when it comes to problem causing areas of modern society.
There is a willingness to put the brakes on long before problems develop that are associated with vices like drunkenness for example, medical problems such liver diseases and the brain, or serious road injuries caused by driving while drunk, not to forget drugs, AIDS, gambling, cigarette-related cancers, and such, because these are lifestyles that most churchgoers try to avoid.

Faith in God seems to add an ingredient to life that brings hope and a positive attitude towards the future.

I  have known many folks who have found God later in their lives. Nearly all have expressed how their new found faith changed them for the better resulting in far happier and healthier lives than before.


What is undeniable is,Christians at no point in time have NEVER fared better than non-Christians anywhere exclusively as a result of their faith. They fall sick even today, they are equally likely to be broke
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2014, 01:20:11 PM »
This Joyce Meyer, does she drive or get driven around in a popemobil? She already has her reward.

Kadame, vooke
Below are confessions by Joyce Meyer. I pray and hope that this is going to be an eye opener for you.

Joyce shares a list of confessions that remind herself of God's love and power. This have downloaded from link http://www.joycemeyer.org/articles/ea.aspx?article=list_of_confessions_by_joyce_meyer
 
I love all people, and I am loved by all people.

the working of miracles, discerning of spirits, the word of faithI am a giver. It is more blessed to give than to receive. I love to give! I have plenty of money to give away all the time.Pain cannot successfully come against my body because Jesus bore all my pain.As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he; therefore, all of my thoughts are positive.

I do not allow the devil to use my spirit as a garbage dump by meditating on negative things that he offers me.

I am a believer not a doubter.

No weapon that is formed against me shall prosper, but every tongue that rises against me in judgment, I shall show to be in the wrong.

I am slow to speak, quick to hear, and slow to anger.

I cast out devils and demons; nothing deadly can hurt me.

I never bind a sister or brother with the words of my mouth.

I am always a positive encouragement. I edify and build up; I never tear down or destroy.

I will cry to God Most High Who performs on my behalf and rewards me.

My son has a sweet personality, and he is not rebellious.



My children love to pray and study the Word. They openly and boldly praise God.

My children make right choices according to the Word of God.

I am an obedient wife, and no rebellion operates in me.

My husband is wise. He is the king and priest of our home. He makes Godly decisions.

I use my time wisely. All of my prayer and study time is wisely spent.

I walk in the spirit all of the time.

All that I own is paid for. I owe no man anything except to love him in Christ.

I love to bless people and spread the Gospel.

I am an intercessor.

I receive speaking engagements in person, by phone, and/or by mail every day.

My daughter operates in Godly wisdom and discipline, and she is full of energy.

I never get tired or grow weary when I study the Word, pray, minister, or praise God; but I am alert and full of energy. And as I study, I become more alert and more energized.

I will study the Word of God. I will pray.

I do not hate or walk in unforgiveness.

I do not fear. I am not guilty.


@Kababe

Again it says "give and it shall be given unto you" I want to stress the last part "given unto you". That scripture tells us somewthing will be given back to you, it can be anything, Gods love , mercey, money et cetera. When it says "it shall be given unto you", mans inclination is then to expect something back.....notice that nowhere do I say in kind, but the bible teaches us to expect, infact there is a verse where God says "test me....." cant remember which one. Point is I have no problem with prosperity gospel if it accomplishes Gods work. Infact I think Africa as whole need more of that prosperity gospel and maybe we may just get out of the poverty cycle that plagues that continent. Faith after all comes from hearing....If you hear it long enough, believe in it, then you can be it, you can achieve it... These preachers arent forcing anyone to give, they are asking and are talking about tried and tested methods for them, you may not fully agree with them, but I wont dismiss them at face value. I am not talking about those cons in Kenya who are asking people to pay for miracles. I am talking about  the Joel Osteen type of preachers, the Bishop jakes kind of preachers.....they know something we dont know, and its up to us to decide what we want to hear and want we dont want to hear.
If it does not say in "in kind", as you admit, then what gives these preachers the gall to tell people to expect a car, or a house, or money? I do like Joel Osteen and I've never heard him tell anybody that if he plants a seed aka money, a car and a house are on the way. In fact, the "seeds" he talks about are always acts of kindness to others, forgiveness, letting go of stuff we lose, trust in God etc etc. I have NEVER heard him ask for money from anyone. Not even once. And then promise that if you give him the money, your wildest dreams will come true. Joyce Meyer too. Never heard her dedicate even one single sermon to "planting a seed" in her church, She's always teaching about how to live your life as a Christian in every day life, the proper attitude to have, trust in God, not being focused on yourself but those around you etc etc I don't like African american preachers coz of all their dramatics/threatics so dont listen much to Bishop TD Jakes, but my mother does and I don't recall hearing him dedicate sermons to "planting a seed". But on TBN, they have this week for raising money, where all manner of preachers come on, kina Rod parsley and Jessee Duplantis and sijui who and they start seeing "messages" from Psalms about how people should send a certain sum of money (right now!) the Spirit says, and to claim your miracle. It is from this program and those preachers that Kenyans have learned and perfected the deal. Now those folk who used to go to mganga can do so in the comfort of the church.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline kadame

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2014, 02:43:10 PM »
Quote
As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back.

@vooke

Bitter Truth has already addressed this bit and true to form you try to flip it around referring him to a demigod. As a preacher your first priority shouldnt be dangling health/wealth carrot to your congregation....but if you do and it backfires, you only have yourself to blame. And who told you that you were the keeper of Gods children...all you have to do is spread the gospel, and let God do his job.

That verse "seek you first the kingdom of God, and his rightouseness and ALL THESE THINGS shall be addedd unto you." What exactly does ALL THESE THINGS"  include pastor? Propserity and gospel are not mutually exclusive..... encouraging believers to have faith that the desires of ther hearts will be fullfilled. Why are you so doubtful. I have been around church my whole life, and growing up I always wondered why the believers...at least most of them where wallowing in poverty? Its like most had accepted that that was how their fate in this life was supposed to be....well, now I know the devil is a liar......you can be a christian and have health, wealth and "ALL THESE THINGS."

As for TBN, fund driving is not all they do, they also have reached a lot of people world wide who would otherwise not have any access to the gospel, so you can choose to just look at the negative.
Sorry, but you people are mixing up the issues in order to confuse the point vooke is making.

First of all, when Jesus said, "all these things will be added unto to you", did he give a time line? When did chritians decide that the Lord's promised rewards was always a matter of this present life? Doesn't anyone believe in the resurrection any more? The new creation? God delivers, and yes, sometimes in this life, but who says ALWAYS??

Secondly, Bittertruth is basically claiming that you will be as wealthy as the size of your faith....or the cup you choose.

I dare anyone here, Bittertruth, Mya88 or anybody else, to show me which one amongst youreselves or any preacher on TV has enough faith to give up his wealth, security, career, community, freedom, and finally your own lives? This is exactly the sacrifice Christians made in the early church, all the way from the Apostles to the commonest Christian. Which one of the Apostles was a rich man?? So now, we are supposed to believe that Paul, Peter, John, James and the rest needed lessons from Bittertruth, TDJakes, Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen or TBN? If only they new the secret of faith, they would have been wealthy! So the (false) teaching goes.

Yet Peter said to the lame man "Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have, I give thee.". Peter's shadow healed illnesses. Touching a handkerchief that had touched Paul's body healed. Yet both men were poor. And they were eventually imprisoned and executed--Who is poorer than a prisoner on death-row?? Only those dying of famine or the wounded on battle-fields. Where was this prosperity Gospel to teach them that if they had the faith of these clever faith-filled 21st century Christians not only would they have escaped the misfortune of imprisonment and execution, they would have also been wealthy!

Not just that, why did Jesus live for 33 years of his life as a poor man, first a fundi--a carpenter--then a preacher who "had nowhere to lay his head"? If this is the message he wanted to teach, should he not have blessed his parents, Mary and Joseph, and made them the wealthiest couple in Judea? Why were they poor? Didn't they have a big "cup" of faith, when they believed the angel? Why was John the Baptist not the wealthiest man in Judea? Apparently, this message was lost on all these people. If only they bought the right books from the 21st century, they would have known God fills the cup you choose and would've got a big cup like prosperity teachers and then they would have all been wealthy???

Naah!
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline kadame

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2014, 03:12:24 PM »
bittertruth,
Do you know Jesus resurrected a 4 days dead Lazarus in the midst of doubt from the relatives,neighbors and even disciples?

Where did you get the idea that you armed with scriptures and faith are a demigod?
God works,heals and blesses whoever, whenever and wherever He wills.

Is there health and wealth outside Christianity?

Matthew 5:45 King James Version (KJV)
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Indeed. We should expect unbelievers to be poorer than Christians if this "law" of faith and wealth is true, and in fact, atheists in particular should be starving and living from hand to mouth in each successive moment, seeing as they have zero faith in God, let alone Jesus Christ. Looking at the various lists of wealthiest people on earth, I bet there are far fewer practicing Christians on any of those lists than are secularists or merely cultural members of whatever religious tradition.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2014, 03:31:13 PM »
Kadame,
Poverty is not piety and wealth is not wickedness.

You can propagate your Poverty Gospel.

The poverty Gospel does nothing to put food in the mouths of hungry children. It just says, Be content in your suffering. Know that God is with you in your suffering.
 
But the Prosperity Gospel provides the resources to be able to help others.


Quote
As a preacher of the gospel, if I dangle this health &/ wealth carrot to non-believers,how do I retain them once these expectations are not met? They will be disillusioned and turn back.

@vooke

Bitter Truth has already addressed this bit and true to form you try to flip it around referring him to a demigod. As a preacher your first priority shouldnt be dangling health/wealth carrot to your congregation....but if you do and it backfires, you only have yourself to blame. And who told you that you were the keeper of Gods children...all you have to do is spread the gospel, and let God do his job.

That verse "seek you first the kingdom of God, and his rightouseness and ALL THESE THINGS shall be addedd unto you." What exactly does ALL THESE THINGS"  include pastor? Propserity and gospel are not mutually exclusive..... encouraging believers to have faith that the desires of ther hearts will be fullfilled. Why are you so doubtful. I have been around church my whole life, and growing up I always wondered why the believers...at least most of them where wallowing in poverty? Its like most had accepted that that was how their fate in this life was supposed to be....well, now I know the devil is a liar......you can be a christian and have health, wealth and "ALL THESE THINGS."

As for TBN, fund driving is not all they do, they also have reached a lot of people world wide who would otherwise not have any access to the gospel, so you can choose to just look at the negative.
Sorry, but you people are mixing up the issues in order to confuse the point vooke is making.

First of all, when Jesus said, "all these things will be added unto to you", did he give a time line? When did chritians decide that the Lord's promised rewards was always a matter of this present life? Doesn't anyone believe in the resurrection any more? The new creation? God delivers, and yes, sometimes in this life, but who says ALWAYS??

Secondly, Bittertruth is basically claiming that you will be as wealthy as the size of your faith....or the cup you choose.

I dare anyone here, Bittertruth, Mya88 or anybody else, to show me which one amongst youreselves or any preacher on TV has enough faith to give up his wealth, security, career, community, freedom, and finally your own lives? This is exactly the sacrifice Christians made in the early church, all the way from the Apostles to the commonest Christian. Which one of the Apostles was a rich man?? So now, we are supposed to believe that Paul, Peter, John, James and the rest needed lessons from Bittertruth, TDJakes, Joyce Meyer and Joel Osteen or TBN? If only they new the secret of faith, they would have been wealthy! So the (false) teaching goes.

Yet Peter said to the lame man "Silver and gold have I none, but such as I have, I give thee.". Peter's shadow healed illnesses. Touching a handkerchief that had touched Paul's body healed. Yet both men were poor. And they were eventually imprisoned and executed--Who is poorer than a prisoner on death-row?? Only those dying of famine or the wounded on battle-fields. Where was this prosperity Gospel to teach them that if they had the faith of these clever faith-filled 21st century Christians not only would they have escaped the misfortune of imprisonment and execution, they would have also been wealthy!

Not just that, why did Jesus live for 33 years of his life as a poor man, first a fundi--a carpenter--then a preacher who "had nowhere to lay his head"? If this is the message he wanted to teach, should he not have blessed his parents, Mary and Joseph, and made them the wealthiest couple in Judea? Why were they poor? Didn't they have a big "cup" of faith, when they believed the angel? Why was John the Baptist not the wealthiest man in Judea? Apparently, this message was lost on all these people. If only they bought the right books from the 21st century, they would have known God fills the cup you choose and would've got a big cup like prosperity teachers and then they would have all been wealthy???

Naah!
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline kadame

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2014, 03:55:13 PM »
Kadame,
Poverty is not piety and wealth is not wickedness.

You can propagate your Poverty Gospel.

The poverty Gospel does nothing to put food in the mouths of hungry children. It just says, Be content in your suffering. Know that God is with you in your suffering.
 
But the Prosperity Gospel provides the resources to be able to help others.
Bittertruth, stop obfuscating issues. I don't know a poverty Gospel except the one preached by Jesus "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven" Or where he asked his followers to leave everything and follow him.

Your position depends on telling people they have only two choices:either they believe the false prosperity Gospel or a false poverty Gospel. But they don't have to do any of that. They can just do the best with what they have, what God has given them, and ask God for anything and everything they need. Who said God likes laziness or for us to bury our talents?

If you think this is a "poverty Gospel", go ahead, but it is in line with what the New Testament teaches in word and example of Jesus, Apostles and the early church. Who cares for a gospel that gives wealth if it is not from these sources, anyway? Wealth is not everything.

Moreover, those I know of who do the most for the poor are not rich either, so much for the "its for the poor" angle. Is God so weak as to be unable to provide for charities that we have to invent a false teaching to feed the poor? To feed the poor, only thing required is generosity. If even half the people were only a little more generous, they would be able to feed all the children in the world.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2014, 04:28:55 PM »
The reason I have called it poverty gospel is because you seem inclined to the idea that poverty is piety and wealth is wickedness.
That's weird
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline kadame

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2014, 04:52:15 PM »
The reason I have called it poverty gospel is because you seem inclined to the idea that poverty is piety and wealth is wickedness.
That's weird
Where did you get this idea? Please point out the post. Otherwise, its obfuscation.

Regarding poverty as piety, that's also not true. Simply "lacking" is no more pious than simply "having", or simply being tall, or short, or healthy or sick. These are facts of life, and most of the time, there is little choice in the matter. Where you are born, which opportunities you get in life, which kind of body you get and its weakness, etc etc. God never consults us before he decides to plant us in certain situations. Those babies dying of AIDS because their mothers had HIV when they gave birth to them or breastfed them, they never got to decide which womb to show up in. Those Turkansa who were dying of famine barely 2 years ago, they never chose to be born into a culture that is dependant on rains etc etc. If they were consulted, probably they would have opted to be born as Bill Gates' or Oprah's kid or something.

Piety has to do with choices we make, not conditions we find ourselves in. If that rich young man had done as Christ requested, sold all his property, given it to the poor and followed Christ, pretty much what Paul did, that would have been pious. And more than that, it would have been an act of faith in Jesus who provides for everything, and an act of love for Jesus, whom he would've thereby loved more than his wealth. Who knows? Perhaps he would've been one of the Apostles. Piety is when we willingly give up what we do have, which no one is too poor to do. Everyone, even a chokora, can give up something for the sake of another person. It's not a preserve of rich people who believe in the prosperity message.

Moreover, piety can also consist in accepting your condition. This does not mean that you do not work to improve it with what you have, or that you fail to trust in God for your provisions, but that you know that not having what you want doesn't mean the end of the world. It doesn't even mean lack of faith in God. God is the point, not his gifts. And you love him for his own sake, not for what goodies he gives you. Consider Job. God allowed him to become poor and thereby prove that it was God he loved and worshipped, not the gifts God had given him. My point is that God tries everyone who loves and believes in him. In fact God says, "those whom I love, I chastise". What does this mean? It's the language of a father. A father gives freely to his children. But sometimes, he deliberately withholds some things from them too. You read in Paul's letters that he suffered from a certain thorn in the flesh, and asked God to take it away. God told him "My grace is sufficient for you". That means that God sometimes deliberately permits us to go through hard times, probably to wean us from all sorts of false gods and attachments we have in things that we may not realize we worship. Whenever I lose things, property, opportunity, even friends, looking back later on, I realize I had almost made them small gods in my life. Isnt it good if God then takes them away from me, for my own sake? Moreover, when God takes something away, or allows something to be lost, he always replaces it with something better. So our attitude should be patience, faith and trust. Point is, there's our plan and then there's God's plan. Faith means believing in God's plan when it doesn't seem to coincide with ours.

The prosperity message would make Christians believe that when such trying times occur, its because they are weak in faith. Yet, sometimes God permits it to mature us spiritually. Sometimes God readily removes these experiences in a single prayer, sometimes he keeps us safe from even experiencing them in the first place, unbeknownst to us etc etc. My problem with prosperity preachers is presenting a half-truth, instead of the whole spectrum of Christian experiences in this world. Do you know that Jesus PROMISED that his followers would suffer? And he BLESSED them for it in advance? What was he talking about, then, if wealth and good things are a guarantee to Christians at all times, depending only on whether they have faith or not? Surely that message is only half-true. That's why it smells so bad from a distance. Even non-believers can tell it is bunk. It's as if God is not God and he is required to respond to us the way WE want/think, and not the way HE wills.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2014, 05:04:24 PM »
I agree with you that ours is a false gospel.
Its false because it doesn't believe in purgatory
Its false because it doesn't believe in worshipping images of crucifix, saints, angels etc
ours is false because we don't hawk sins.
 Hayo tu
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2014, 05:15:39 PM »
Mention of piety reminds me of Pius.  A man who was in boarding school in Ibadan with one of my good buddies. 

Pius was the bully to end a whole civilization of bullies.  Parents day, children would get their supplies.  Cookies, jam, peanut butter, margarine, pocket money and what have you.  Pius took everything from them and left them tokens.

Pius would wake the students at 3 am in the morning and have them go and milk the school cows for him.  If he did not like the portions they brought back, he would get a switch and cane them on the spot.  He was also a school captain.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline kadame

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2014, 05:18:51 PM »
I agree with you that ours is a false gospel.
Its false because it doesn't believe in purgatory
Its false because it doesn't believe in worshipping images of crucifix, saints, angels etc
ours is false because we don't hawk sins.
 Hayo tu
When you say "our Gospel", Its good to realize you are speaking for only a section. vooke and dailybread are both Protestant and they don't believe it. I have also heard a preacher in Nairobi preaching it at a catholic mass, so it has spread sufficiently that it is not only Evangelicals who believe it. There are many evangelical and Protestant pastors who reject it. In fact, that naija link vooke posted in the other thread, they are all protestants, no catholic there. So this heresy is not an "evangelical gospel" or a protestant gospel. It is a fad and will soon pass when God so wills. The way you are avoiding answering any of the points I raise and turning to all sorts of irrelevancies is quite telling, though. It's a touchy subject.
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2014, 08:11:11 PM »
Terminator,
He he he. But I  thought this thread wasn't of any relevance to atheists.seems when christians clash, atheist wins.
Mention of piety reminds me of Pius.  A man who was in boarding school in Ibadan with one of my good buddies. 

Pius was the bully to end a whole civilization of bullies.  Parents day, children would get their supplies.  Cookies, jam, peanut butter, margarine, pocket money and what have you.  Pius took everything from them and left them tokens.

Pius would wake the students at 3 am in the morning and have them go and milk the school cows for him.  If he did not like the portions they brought back, he would get a switch and cane them on the spot.  He was also a school captain.
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2014, 08:40:16 PM »
Kadame, I don't know what definition you have for posperity. Why you are againt wof I don't know. But the fact is many and many cathos are beggining to see how gullible and indoctrinated they have been and are now joining evangelical ministries.  Its just amazing! I agree that there are those fake preachers that are thriving on false doctrines to con Gods people and get rich. For that, its not you to judge but the bible tells us that we  shall know them by their fruits- the false prophets of doom. I do not have to follow the likes of vooke with anti-tithe doctrines, nor DBreads  H.G.whites indoctrination on investigative judgement.  The Holy spirit is a teacher and simply gives me discerment and wisdom to know what Gods will is. And for that, I know am happier, healthier, and prosperous that would have been without Christ in my life. That's a  testimony.
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2014, 12:06:09 AM »
Terminator,
He he he. But I  thought this thread wasn't of any relevance to atheists.seems when christians clash, atheist wins.
Mention of piety reminds me of Pius.  A man who was in boarding school in Ibadan with one of my good buddies. 

Pius was the bully to end a whole civilization of bullies.  Parents day, children would get their supplies.  Cookies, jam, peanut butter, margarine, pocket money and what have you.  Pius took everything from them and left them tokens.

Pius would wake the students at 3 am in the morning and have them go and milk the school cows for him.  If he did not like the portions they brought back, he would get a switch and cane them on the spot.  He was also a school captain.
I am told Pius was merciless.  Show me everything you have in that box.

Otherwise I have nothing against Christians.  I think one can say Christians have brought more good than bad to the world.  At least as far as the 21st century is concerned.

I just find it odd when arguments are advanced that don't make sense to me.  I could be a Christian and still fail to grasp some of those arguments.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline vooke

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Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2014, 08:28:47 AM »
bittertruth,
Please make structured attacks on Catholicism instead or aimless jabs

this is vooke's position;
1. There is NOTHING wrong with Christians prospering materially. Basic principles such as hardwork, focus,education,inheritance taught in the scriptures work for everyone and not just Christians

2. Material prosperity is not and never has been the primary,secondary or even tertiary purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ

3. A Christian is likely to be prosperous just as the next Satanist or atheist

4. Poverty, dehumanizing as it is is, not a contradiction of the Christian Faith

5. Prosperity Gospel is both false and dangerous; it distorts our relationship with God and it NEVER works except for the proponents
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2014, 08:33:17 AM »
my broda,
China is fast rising in the world scene and it is almost 100% non-Christian. I was expecting the 'most Christian' nation to rise. BTW, in your opinion, what country has the highest population of evangelicals like you? How has its circumstances changed over the years?

Please quit lying, believers don't live longer and are not necessarily healthier. If they are happier, it is because of having eternity in mind not because their present circumstances are better
Substance abuse and other risky behaviors will shorten lifespan but they are not exclusively non-Christians. I know many teetotalers who are non-believers for instance
vooke,
Generally, believers live longer, happier and healthier lives and even have better career prospects. Going to church and praying has huge benefits.

I think Church goers generally are much more  conservative and tend to restrain themselves when it comes to problem causing areas of modern society.
There is a willingness to put the brakes on long before problems develop that are associated with vices like drunkenness for example, medical problems such liver diseases and the brain, or serious road injuries caused by driving while drunk, not to forget drugs, AIDS, gambling, cigarette-related cancers, and such, because these are lifestyles that most churchgoers try to avoid.

Faith in God seems to add an ingredient to life that brings hope and a positive attitude towards the future.

2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline vooke

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2014, 08:59:16 AM »
bittertruth,
There is no dignity in poverty. Did you watch that Kibera family that fed on Ugali and salty water for stew? Sometimes back I was watching Equity Bank's WIngs to Fly documentary and the harrowing tales some of those kids undergo are crazy. OF course wealth is good and nobody said it is not. But wealth is not and never has been a measure of faith

Prosperity gospel is not about charity negro, it is about pampering the pastor and his family and then sitting back with a constipated grin expecting a hundredfold harvest. If you don't believe me do a simple survey. Answer these questions as faithfully as you can.

1. Between your TOTAL monetary gifts(tithes,seeds and offerings) to your church/pastor and your personal acts of charity, what carries more weight?

2. Between your local church salary budget and charity, which is higher?

Of course the root of Prosperity Gospel is not selflessness but selfishness. You desire finer things in life coming easiest, you give to your church. It is ALWAYS about what is in it for you. Your giving is an investment scheme which you are convinced by your sleek MoG that it is guarantees the highest return
Kadame,
Poverty is not piety and wealth is not wickedness.

You can propagate your Poverty Gospel.

The poverty Gospel does nothing to put food in the mouths of hungry children. It just says, Be content in your suffering. Know that God is with you in your suffering.
 
But the Prosperity Gospel provides the resources to be able to help others.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2014, 12:16:22 PM »
bittertruth,
Please make structured attacks on Catholicism instead or aimless jabs

this is vooke's position;
1. There is NOTHING wrong with Christians prospering materially. Basic principles such as hardwork, focus,education,inheritance taught in the scriptures work for everyone and not just Christians

2. Material prosperity is not and never has been the primary,secondary or even tertiary purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ

3. A Christian is likely to be prosperous just as the next Satanist or atheist

4. Poverty, dehumanizing as it is is, not a contradiction of the Christian Faith

5. Prosperity Gospel is both false and dangerous; it distorts our relationship with God and it NEVER works except for the proponents

vooke, And this is my stand:
1.God is  God of abundance. Jesus came to give us life and life more abundantly- John 10:10. This means that Gods covenant is a covenant of abundance. He wanted man to be prosperous from the very beginning (Genesis 1:28).

2.Poverty is always as result disobedience to word of God and is indeed a curse. Here are Biblical texts to support my assertions.
Haggai 1:4 Is it a time for you yourselves to be living in your panelled houses, while this house remains a ruin?....Consider your Ways! He who earns wages, earns wages to put into a bag with holes...Therefore the heavens above you withhold the dew, and the earth withholds its fruits.
Here, the people neglected the house of God but beautified their houses and therefore brought a curse upon them selves.

Malachi 3:9 You are cursed with a curse, For you have robbed Me, Even this whole nation.
Here you see God calling man cursed because of robbing God.

Even today, God cannot tolerate His work being stopped for lack of funds when His people are working on their own selfish desires. That doesn't add up.

3. Wealth is a blessing.  when You say that you are against prosperity theory, its like saying that you don't need  anything more than you already have.
Jesus said "feed the poor", How are you going to feed the poor is you just have enough to feed yourself?
God wants his children to be rich.  Some of wealthiest men of old are Abraham, Solomon, Isaac, Job. These were men of God and were all wealthy.

4. We are prospered to bless others. The Bible encourages us to excel in the grace of giving.
God gives everyone of His children the ability to get wealth. Therefore, as you abound in everything, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that you abound in the grace of giving also (2Corinthians 8:7).
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life

Offline kadame

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Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2014, 12:31:42 PM »
bittertruth, do you honestly believe that poverty is always a curse? So all the rich people in the world are good and all the poor people somehow have done something bad in order to be cursed?
Just my 0.02 Kshs. wave  ;)

Offline bittertruth

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Re: Re: vooke, kadame: Is it wrong for a christian to be rich?
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2014, 01:19:38 PM »
Kababe, Poverty is a demon. Its often times as a result of disobedience, laziness, fear etc. Poverty can be a generational curse, where you find people could be poor not because they are lazy but simply due to "sins" of forefathers.
If poverty was Godly, Jesus wouldn't preach - helping the poor.
God is for all human kind to be prosperous.
I don't want to discuss your assertion on riches because Satan can also provide riches.
bittertruth, do you honestly believe that poverty is always a curse? So all the rich people in the world are good and all the poor people somehow have done something bad in order to be cursed?
Prov 4:23 Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life