Dejection in NASA after yesterday's statement

[Empedocles]

current political map

Nyakundi thrives on controversy. But I digress.

Secession as propagated is really a downright stupid idea. In truth, while it may stoke the egos of Rao and his henchmen by making him (finally) a president, it still wouldn't solve the fundamental leadership failures Kenya as a whole has been going through.

Without a viable and workable economic plan, which NASA didn't even have going into the 8.8 elections, the new republic would quickly break down into infighting among the remaining tribes, subtribes, and clans for the little itty bitty available resources which will remain. In other words, the new republic would be a carbon copy of the old republic.

As a short-term measure, an outlet for rage mixed with a healthy dash of denial of reality, it sounds good, promising freedom from tyranny and, yet again, promising equitable distribution of resources. For the long-term, it's stupidity perfected. But then again, our politicians have never been known for their intellectual prowess. Why start now?

It'd would be like watching "Gangs of New York", without the charm of Daniel Day-Lewis.

It's certainly a gamble. Just as the newly independent Kenya and many other African states were at some point, as was the first EA Community that was to give us an East African federation before its spectacular failure thanks in part to Jomo's selfishness etc. Did you know, ever since independence, Africans had the goal of creating a continental political union? Had these succeeded, tribalism in African politics would never have become as big a problem as it has been since. Alas!

Anyway, a ping pong game between Kikuyu and Kalenjin elites while other tribes continue to fill with rage is not sustainable in this country of ethnic identities. It is in fact callous, grossly irresponsible. Just ask the Balkans of the 1990s. These things do matter, however politically incorrect it is to say so and are the reason we can't get to tackling the other issues that we would all easily agree on were it not for this one issue. Moi must be commended for not damaging ethnic relations as has been done progressively in the last 15 years. I remember people hating the government and KANU to the high heavens when he left, but I don't remember anyone having beef with Kalenjins per se. He was a tribalist in ways and at times when it was sustainable. The man knew how to read the times.

Only when resources are scarce do humans retreat to their ethnic, tribal, etc. cocoons. Boring yet predictable.

But you're spot on about Moi, who even tried to warn us on tribalism. Unfortunately, we ignored him.

There's still time to follow the unfolding show Rao has lined up for us.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

current political map

Nyakundi thrives on controversy. But I digress.

Secession as propagated is really a downright stupid idea. In truth, while it may stoke the egos of Rao and his henchmen by making him (finally) a president, it still wouldn't solve the fundamental leadership failures Kenya as a whole has been going through.

Without a viable and workable economic plan, which NASA didn't even have going into the 8.8 elections, the new republic would quickly break down into infighting among the remaining tribes, subtribes, and clans for the little itty bitty available resources which will remain. In other words, the new republic would be a carbon copy of the old republic.

As a short-term measure, an outlet for rage mixed with a healthy dash of denial of reality, it sounds good, promising freedom from tyranny and, yet again, promising equitable distribution of resources. For the long-term, it's stupidity perfected. But then again, our politicians have never been known for their intellectual prowess. Why start now?

It'd would be like watching "Gangs of New York", without the charm of Daniel Day-Lewis.

It's certainly a gamble. Just as the newly independent Kenya and many other African states were at some point, as was the first EA Community that was to give us an East African federation before its spectacular failure thanks in part to Jomo's selfishness etc. Did you know, ever since independence, Africans had the goal of creating a continental political union? Had these succeeded, tribalism in African politics would never have become as big a problem as it has been since. Alas!

Anyway, a ping pong game between Kikuyu and Kalenjin elites while other tribes continue to fill with rage is not sustainable in this country of ethnic identities. It is in fact callous, grossly irresponsible. Just ask the Balkans of the 1990s. These things do matter, however politically incorrect it is to say so and are the reason we can't get to tackling the other issues that we would all easily agree on were it not for this one issue. Moi must be commended for not damaging ethnic relations as has been done progressively in the last 15 years. I remember people hating the government and KANU to the high heavens when he left, but I don't remember anyone having beef with Kalenjins per se. He was a tribalist in ways and at times when it was sustainable. The man knew how to read the times.

[Dear Mami]

Agree, Termi. Especially the last paragraph. For sure.

[Nefertiti]

current political map

Nyakundi thrives on controversy. But I digress.

Secession as propagated is really a downright stupid idea. In truth, while it may stoke the egos of Rao and his henchmen by making him (finally) a president, it still wouldn't solve the fundamental leadership failures Kenya as a whole has been going through.

Without a viable and workable economic plan, which NASA didn't even have going into the 8.8 elections, the new republic would quickly break down into infighting among the remaining tribes, subtribes, and clans for the little itty bitty available resources which will remain. In other words, the new republic would be a carbon copy of the old republic.

As a short-term measure, an outlet for rage mixed with a healthy dash of denial of reality, it sounds good, promising freedom from tyranny and, yet again, promising equitable distribution of resources. For the long-term, it's stupidity perfected. But then again, our politicians have never been known for their intellectual prowess. Why start now?

It'd would be like watching "Gangs of New York", without the charm of Daniel Day-Lewis.

It's certainly a gamble. Just as the newly independent Kenya and many other African states were at some point, as was the first EA Community that was to give us an East African federation before its spectacular failure thanks in part to Jomo's selfishness etc. Did you know, ever since independence, Africans had the goal of creating a continental political union? Had these succeeded, tribalism in African politics would never have become as big a problem as it has been since. Alas!

Anyway, a ping pong game between Kikuyu and Kalenjin elites while other tribes continue to fill with rage is not sustainable in this country of ethnic identities. It is in fact callous, grossly irresponsible. Just ask the Balkans of the 1990s. These things do matter, however politically incorrect it is to say so and are the reason we can't get to tackling the other issues that we would all easily agree on were it not for this one issue. Moi must be commended for not damaging ethnic relations as has been done progressively in the last 15 years. I remember people hating the government and KANU to the high heavens when he left, but I don't remember anyone having beef with Kalenjins per se. He was a tribalist in ways and at times when it was sustainable. The man knew how to read the times.

I want MOON Ki's take on this sentiment and the outright absolution of Wanjiku. He is the standard bearer.

[RV Pundit]

Have your favourite group of tribes done a good job in local elections? Of course not.

[Globalcitizen12]

https://www.the-star.co.ke/news/2017/11/02/1-million-man-march-to-launch-nasa-uprising-for-liberation_c1662581
Railas hail Mary ..

[Nefertiti]

Swala nyeti hili South Sudan is a sample of how the secession cookie crambles. The US is stuck with the skunk barely 5 years after the fact.

Have your favourite group of tribes done a good job in local elections? Of course not.

[Empedocles]

current political map

Nyakundi thrives on controversy. But I digress.

Secession as propagated is really a downright stupid idea. In truth, while it may stoke the egos of Rao and his henchmen by making him (finally) a president, it still wouldn't solve the fundamental leadership failures Kenya as a whole has been going through.

Without a viable and workable economic plan, which NASA didn't even have going into the 8.8 elections, the new republic would quickly break down into infighting among the remaining tribes, subtribes, and clans for the little itty bitty available resources which will remain. In other words, the new republic would be a carbon copy of the old republic.

As a short-term measure, an outlet for rage mixed with a healthy dash of denial of reality, it sounds good, promising freedom from tyranny and, yet again, promising equitable distribution of resources. For the long-term, it's stupidity perfected. But then again, our politicians have never been known for their intellectual prowess. Why start now?

It'd would be like watching "Gangs of New York", without the charm of Daniel Day-Lewis.

It's certainly a gamble. Just as the newly independent Kenya and many other African states were at some point, as was the first EA Community that was to give us an East African federation before its spectacular failure thanks in part to Jomo's selfishness etc. Did you know, ever since independence, Africans had the goal of creating a continental political union? Had these succeeded, tribalism in African politics would never have become as big a problem as it has been since. Alas!

Anyway, a ping pong game between Kikuyu and Kalenjin elites while other tribes continue to fill with rage is not sustainable in this country of ethnic identities. It is in fact callous, grossly irresponsible. Just ask the Balkans of the 1990s. These things do matter, however politically incorrect it is to say so and are the reason we can't get to tackling the other issues that we would all easily agree on were it not for this one issue. Moi must be commended for not damaging ethnic relations as has been done progressively in the last 15 years. I remember people hating the government and KANU to the high heavens when he left, but I don't remember anyone having beef with Kalenjins per se. He was a tribalist in ways and at times when it was sustainable. The man knew how to read the times.

It's good to disagree:

"I never learned from a man who agreed with me."

My saying that a breakaway would be the same is based on who will be running the show when it's initially formed, a constitution proposed, and very importantly, adhered to.

Please don't tell me the likes of Rao, Weta, MDVD, Kalonzo (wherever he is), etc. would be the best people to lead the founding of a new state.

The fact is, the current patronage system has been the best thing for them ever, making them unbelievably rich and powerful. That's all they know and I seriously doubt, in a new state, they would willingly give away their ace card; calling the shots.

You see, I always (sadly) laugh whenever I hear any of them clamoring for accountability etc. In as much as some of us would like to deny, impunity lifted them to where they are today. It's like a sick joke.

I admit, I could be very wrong but I seriously doubt it. One thing I've learned is to really look at the past actions of these "leaders" to form my opinion. And my opinion of them ain't favorable at all.

I'll again bore you with the Rules for Rulers, which, if you think about it, is exactly how our politicians behave and will very most probably behave when founding a new state:

[Dear Mami]

Empedocles, just out of curiosity, what, if anything, do you find wrong with Uhuru?  Not Ruto, just the son of Jomo.

[Empedocles]

Empedocles, just out of curiosity, what, if anything, do you find wrong with Uhuru?  Not Ruto, just the son of Jomo.

I feel sorry for him. Like Prince Charles, I think he'd be happier living his life far away from the limelight.

Unfortunately for him family duties forced him into a life he seems to have never wanted (remember, he tried backing away in Dec. 2012).

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

Have your favourite group of tribes done a good job in local elections? Of course not.

[Dear Mami]

Empedocles, just out of curiosity, what, if anything, do you find wrong with Uhuru?  Not Ruto, just the son of Jomo.

I feel sorry for him. Like Prince Charles, I think he'd be happier living his life far away from the limelight.

Unfortunately for him family duties forced him into a life he seems to have never wanted (remember, he tried backing away in Dec. 2012).

I find that view so benign. You associate Ruto with Kiambaa church for example, but not Jomo's son with Naivasha massacres (there were matches there too) when it could be very well argued that Ruto had a far better argument for "spontaneous/unplanned violence" than the latter. What about the unmitigated incompetence and corruption that makes KANU seem a little modest? If you think about it, why should non-Kikuyus (and non- Kalenjins) settle for that over the incompetence of people from other groups if at the very least it would get us over these ethnic grudges? If other people could feel the same sense of comfort with these bad leaders (And I refuse to believe Raila himself with his many faults is even half as bad as Jubilee people claim simply because the past 15 years have not yielded any such evidence) that Kyuks manage to feel with Uhuru despite all his ills, I don't see why it is a worse option. If it's more of the same without the ethnic grudges, sawa. I'll take that over the ping-pong game any day.

[Empedocles]

Empedocles, just out of curiosity, what, if anything, do you find wrong with Uhuru?  Not Ruto, just the son of Jomo.

I feel sorry for him. Like Prince Charles, I think he'd be happier living his life far away from the limelight.

Unfortunately for him family duties forced him into a life he seems to have never wanted (remember, he tried backing away in Dec. 2012).

I find that view so benign. You associate Ruto with Kiambaa church for example, but not Jomo's son with Naivasha massacres (there were matches there too) when it could be very well argued that Ruto had a far better argument for "spontaneous/unplanned violence" than the latter. What about the unmitigated incompetence and corruption that makes KANU seem a little modest? If you think about it, why should non-Kikuyus (and non- Kalenjins) settle for that over the incompetence of people from other groups if at the very least it would get us over these ethnic grudges? If other people could feel the same sense of comfort with these bad leaders (And I refuse to believe Raila himself with his many faults is even half as bad as Jubilee people claim simply because the past 15 years has not yielded any such evidence) that Kyuks manage with Uhuru despite all his ills, I don't see why it is a worse option. If it's more of the same without the ethnic grudges, sawa. I'll take that over the ping-pong game any day.

I'm not saying Uhuru is innocent. He's guilty of crimes that I agree with.

The difference between him and Rao/Ruto is I believe he was pushed into it by his family, for their own protection, a job he never seemed to want. And of course I'm aware that's not a defence of what he's done/had done and if a competent court were ever to sentence him to serve hard labor for them, so be it, he deserves it.

But it still doesn't change my opinion that he was pushed and is still being pushed. Even our very own RVPundit calls him a softie. Further, I do believe, left to his own devices, he would have happily given Rao nusu.

My personal opinion? Deep down Uhuru ain't bad but he's a weakling.

[Dear Mami]

I can agree with you on some of that, but I disagree that Rao or even Kaloi and (gasp!) Mudamba and Weta, the kleptos, are worse than Uhuru.

[Empedocles]

I can agree with you on some of that, but I disagree that Rao or even Kaloi and (gasp!) Mudamba and Weta, the kleptos, are worse than Uhuru.

Well, it could be because Uhuru is the public face of the ruthless MKM pushing him, who are undeniably dangerous mf's.

I'll admit I could be wrong and Uhuru deep down really is nasty person.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

I can agree with you on some of that, but I disagree that Rao or even Kaloi and (gasp!) Mudamba and Weta, the kleptos, are worse than Uhuru.

Well, it could be because Uhuru is the public face of the ruthless MKM pushing him, who are undeniably dangerous mf's.

I'll admit I could be wrong and Uhuru deep down really is nasty person.

He is an arrogant and vindictive autocrat.

[Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants]

It's certainly a gamble. Just as the newly independent Kenya and many other African states were at some point, as was the first EA Community that was to give us an East African federation before its spectacular failure thanks in part to Jomo's selfishness etc. Did you know, ever since independence, Africans had the goal of creating a continental political union? Had these succeeded, tribalism in African politics would never have become as big a problem as it has been since. Alas!

Anyway, a ping pong game between Kikuyu and Kalenjin elites while other tribes continue to fill with rage is not sustainable in this country of ethnic identities. It is in fact callous, grossly irresponsible. Just ask the Balkans of the 1990s. These things do matter, however politically incorrect it is to say so and are the reason we can't get to tackling the other issues that we would all easily agree on were it not for this one issue. Moi must be commended for not damaging ethnic relations as has been done progressively in the last 15 years. I remember people hating the government and KANU to the high heavens when he left, but I don't remember anyone having beef with Kalenjins per se. He was a tribalist in ways and at times when it was sustainable. The man knew how to read the times.

It's good to disagree:

"I never learned from a man who agreed with me."

My saying that a breakaway would be the same is based on who will be running the show when it's initially formed, a constitution proposed, and very importantly, adhered to.

Please don't tell me the likes of Rao, Weta, MDVD, Kalonzo (wherever he is), etc. would be the best people to lead the founding of a new state.

The fact is, the current patronage system has been the best thing for them ever, making them unbelievably rich and powerful. That's all they know and I seriously doubt, in a new state, they would willingly give away their ace card; calling the shots.

You see, I always (sadly) laugh whenever I hear any of them clamoring for accountability etc. In as much as some of us would like to deny, impunity lifted them to where they are today. It's like a sick joke.

I admit, I could be very wrong but I seriously doubt it. One thing I've learned is to really look at the past actions of these "leaders" to form my opinion. And my opinion of them ain't favorable at all.

I'll again bore you with the Rules for Rulers, which, if you think about it, is exactly how our politicians behave and will very most probably behave when founding a new state:

I won't disagree that those folks you mention are not saintly material.  I am ready to believe they are crooks by every definition of the word.  Even though I haven't seen such evidence for Raila, Kalonzo or MDVD, I have heard stories.  Weta is definitely not someone you want controlling your money.  Yet we have even worse crooks in power right now.  That is what Kenya is working with and I don't see any practical alternative.  What do you think is that alternative?  Ekuru Aukot?

My view, in such a scenario is to weaken the hold on power of either party by using the only card Kenyans "have", the vote.  You punish one group by voting them out and replacing them with another group, even if the only viable choice is a different set of crooks.  That way you gradually start to instill lessons of what can happen if they don't behave.  These are also lessons that would not be lost on a hypothetical breakaway republic. 

I have seen comparisons to South Sudan, but those are not relevant in Kenya's situation.  South Sudanese already had major divisions with quite a few violent encounters among themselves even during the civil war.  The Nuer/Dinka rivalry did not emerge after secession.  I don't see any similar animosity among the groups that currently constitute the NASA wing. 

[Dear Mami]

Absolutely, Termi. That's the only way to create a people-driven/responsive govt rather than the self-interested one, not to rely on the personal goodness of the leader but to punish every govt that fails, severely. Without a secure vote, there is no way to get a govt to be that even if it starts out well with good intentions. The human character is fickle and who knows weather if Kadame wielded power she would not make Kagame look like a castrated bull? It must be that the survival of the govt depends on avoiding the real threat of being mercilessly booted out or power will corrupt otherwise normal folk (I think!).

[Empedocles]

It's certainly a gamble. Just as the newly independent Kenya and many other African states were at some point, as was the first EA Community that was to give us an East African federation before its spectacular failure thanks in part to Jomo's selfishness etc. Did you know, ever since independence, Africans had the goal of creating a continental political union? Had these succeeded, tribalism in African politics would never have become as big a problem as it has been since. Alas!

Anyway, a ping pong game between Kikuyu and Kalenjin elites while other tribes continue to fill with rage is not sustainable in this country of ethnic identities. It is in fact callous, grossly irresponsible. Just ask the Balkans of the 1990s. These things do matter, however politically incorrect it is to say so and are the reason we can't get to tackling the other issues that we would all easily agree on were it not for this one issue. Moi must be commended for not damaging ethnic relations as has been done progressively in the last 15 years. I remember people hating the government and KANU to the high heavens when he left, but I don't remember anyone having beef with Kalenjins per se. He was a tribalist in ways and at times when it was sustainable. The man knew how to read the times.

It's good to disagree:

"I never learned from a man who agreed with me."

My saying that a breakaway would be the same is based on who will be running the show when it's initially formed, a constitution proposed, and very importantly, adhered to.

Please don't tell me the likes of Rao, Weta, MDVD, Kalonzo (wherever he is), etc. would be the best people to lead the founding of a new state.

The fact is, the current patronage system has been the best thing for them ever, making them unbelievably rich and powerful. That's all they know and I seriously doubt, in a new state, they would willingly give away their ace card; calling the shots.

You see, I always (sadly) laugh whenever I hear any of them clamoring for accountability etc. In as much as some of us would like to deny, impunity lifted them to where they are today. It's like a sick joke.

I admit, I could be very wrong but I seriously doubt it. One thing I've learned is to really look at the past actions of these "leaders" to form my opinion. And my opinion of them ain't favorable at all.

I'll again bore you with the Rules for Rulers, which, if you think about it, is exactly how our politicians behave and will very most probably behave when founding a new state:

I won't disagree that those folks you mention are not saintly material.  I am ready to believe they are crooks by every definition of the word.  Even though I haven't seen such evidence for Raila, Kalonzo or MDVD, I have heard stories.  Weta is definitely not someone you want controlling your money.  Yet we have even worse crooks in power right now.  That is what Kenya is working with and I don't see any practical alternative.  What do you think is that alternative?  Ekuru Aukot?

My view, in such a scenario is to weaken the hold on power of either party by using the only card Kenyans "have", the vote.  You punish one group by voting them out and replacing them with another group, even if the only viable choice is a different set of crooks.  That way you gradually start to instill lessons of what can happen if they don't behave.  These are also lessons that would not be lost on a hypothetical breakaway republic. 

I have seen comparisons to South Sudan, but those are not relevant in Kenya's situation.  South Sudanese already had major divisions with quite a few violent encounters among themselves even during the civil war.  The Nuer/Dinka rivalry did not emerge after secession.  I don't see any similar animosity among the groups that currently constitute the NASA wing.

In theory, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

In practice, we punish the tribe.

Who would I think would be suitable? Tis difficult to answer. You see, each set of leaders comes with their own key supporters, who want to be compensated, exactly as it's practiced worldwide i.e. POTUS travels with businessmen.

Unfortunately, our only viable "industry" is fleecing the government, which the new leader would have to allow key supporters to engage in, otherwise they'll abandon him in droves.

The feasting is what will start the divisions in the new state, as each tribal lord will want more and more for his people, just as we have now.

[MOON Ki]

I want MOON Ki's take on this sentiment and the outright absolution of Wanjiku. He is the standard bearer.

Dear Robina:

The idea that Kenyans would elect better leaders if it were not for rigging is an interesting one.    Terminator also adds that "Local elections have been generally reflective of voters wishes".   So, have Kenyans been electing better leaders at that level---MCAs, MPs, and so forth?   If so, why has devolution produced local governments that resemble the national government---in terms of the scoundrels in office, the thievery, the incompetence?    If not, what reason is there to believe that Kenyans who do not practice proper judgement at that level will suddenly do so at the national level?

Let us consider an issue that cuts across all levels.  Most Kenyans seem to agree that corruption is a major problem in Kenya.   Yet, as I have noted earlier, the last "major" anti-corruption demonstration in Kenya attracted about only 30 people, half of them Boniface Mwangi and other NGO types on their "day-job", in a city of millions.    That ought to tell you something, and you can look at the results of the elections, at all levels.   If corruption does not really bother voters at the lower levels, why should we believe that it will really bother them at the national level?  And where are the good leaders at the national level expected to come from?

Kadame9 poses a question:

The human character is fickle and who knows weather if Kadame wielded power she would not make Kagame look like a castrated bull?

One cannot definitely know.   But one can still try to make a choice based on some reasonable criteria: integrity and other aspects of character, past performance that might be related to the position (and, in general, the ability to deliver), the potential for future performance, concrete ideas, policies and plans, and so forth.   

During past elections, I read some of what was put out in the written media, heard some of what was put out in TV performances, and so forth.   Not much, but some.   A question to someone who followed a great deal more: to what extent do Kenyans consider and discuss such factors.   To what extent do they determine choices on elections-day? If one simply views voting as just a punt, then one should expect the outcome that most punters get in the end.

In about another year, Kenyans will, as usual,  be wailing about the "selfish, rotten, thieving bastards" that occupy legislative offices  and promising to chuck them out at the next elections.     Those are ones that are "generally reflective of voters wishes".   So, who should be "held responsible" for the fact that they are in office, passing legislation and doing what-not?