Author Topic: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence  (Read 34361 times)

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #100 on: September 21, 2016, 07:07:04 PM »
No idea. Google it. They last I was interested they were hawking some mobile operating system for building apps...which they abandoned..for Android. You' think you can re-connect with some korean girl there? :)

No idea, huh?   And yet you brought it up as one of your examples.    "Hawking ... which they abandoned", eh?  That was a pretty quick disappearance of the "Phones. Smartphones. Mostly for Africa."
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #101 on: September 21, 2016, 07:08:40 PM »
You are asking for granular details. I know Samsung,Intel, IBM, MIcrosoft and many of the big guys have innovation (R&D) hubs focused on Africa in Nairobi - employing PHD types to do R&D. If you're asking me to locate their physical address; then you need to pay for that. If you're interested on why they located here, not Ethiopia or TZ or Congo..be my guest.
No idea, huh?   And yet you brought it up as one of your examples.    "Hawking ... which they abandoned", eh?  That was a pretty quick disappearance of the "Phones. Smartphones. Mostly for Africa."

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #102 on: September 21, 2016, 07:14:33 PM »
You are asking for granular details. I know Samsung,Intel, IBM, MIcrosoft and many of the big guys have innovation (R&D) hubs focused on Africa in Nairobi - employing PHD types to do R&D. If you're asking me to locate their physical address; then you need to pay for that.

Samsung was your example, and my primary interest was in just what it is that they are doing there.   Since you have lost your ""Phones. Smartphones. Mostly for Africa." and ended up with ""Hawking ... which they abandoned" and "no idea", we can stop there and record another "Punditism".
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #103 on: September 21, 2016, 07:21:12 PM »
It still exist.
Samsung was your example, and my primary interest was in just what it is that they are doing there.   Since you have lost your ""Phones. Smartphones. Mostly for Africa." and ended up with ""Hawking ... which they abandoned" and "no idea", we can stop there and record another "Punditism".

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #104 on: September 21, 2016, 09:19:39 PM »
Manufacturing is not all low-tech. 

In the same vein, "low cost" and "low wages" are not absolute terms and do not necessarily mean "peanuts".    What they really mean is "lower than where most of the stuff is currently being made".     

Yep.  The costs do not have to be relative to Ethiopia but rather to where they are otherwise already doing it i.e China, Vietnam.  Kenya's labor costs compare favorably with those countries.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #105 on: September 22, 2016, 01:19:57 AM »
Juakali guy in Gikomba (roadside) has to move to Kariobangi(backstreet) Industries (Cottage -call it semi-formal) then eventually move to warehouse in Industrial area (formal) then he expands to UG/TZ/(MNC) with recognised Sufuria brand. Jua kali guy in gikomba is one dude, when he moves to Kariobangi he will employ spouse and maybe kids to sell stuff, then eventually when he moves the ladder he will even employ me as IT guy.

I agree with you on the need to "upgrade" the jua-kali+informal sector, as do many experts---and I am not one---who have looked into the matter.  And I quite like the idea of Mr./Ms. Jua Kali sending his/her "recognized sufuria brand" all over the place.   I think where we disagree overall is in the relative weights of manufacturing vs. services, what should drive what, ... in a developing country.

In your example: If the spouse and kids (assuming they are not under-age, otherwise one expects them to be in school) are not getting paid, then their contribution to the "service" economy is not what it should be; the main point in employment is to get paid, and as a rule salespeople get paid.   So let's assume they are getting paid ... and for simplicity, let's ignore things like  a maid/"boy" being paid to replace the spouse, etc.    The IT guy will too expect to be paid---and much more than the "sales staff".     And so on, and so forth.   We therefore end up needing a lot of sufurias.     Maybe Mr./Ms. Jua Kali then employees more sufuria-makers or he/she borrows and invests in sufuria-producing technology that reduces the labour requirements.         No matter what he/she chooses, at the end of the day what drives the business and the employment of the other people is the production of sufurias, i.e. manufacturing: not enough  sufurias means the "service" people---spouse+kids salesforce, knowledge-economy IT guy, etc---have to go home.

(It is, of course, possible to have a huge services sector but without much in manufacturing, but there is a difference there between the situation in a developed country and a developing one.   It is even possible to have a relatively huge "return on  investment", but to what end?    For example, the guy who cuts my hair whenever I am in the "reserves" in Kenya has been at it for years, with his only "investment" being in scissors and a bad chair.)

Putting aside my "jocular" comments on neighbourly Mavoko boda-boda types, I am genuinely intrigued by your comments in that area.   Part of that is in a broad sense---e.g., at a national level,  how does that industry compare with that of Vietnam, which has been at it for ages---but part is purely personal: I have sponsored a relative into that industry, and the last time I looked at his "books"---actually an "exercise book"---I concluded that he is in for a long struggle .... so many rides per  day, bringing in at most so much per day, etc.     What are the successful ones doing?
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #106 on: September 22, 2016, 08:01:16 AM »
Juakali(Manufacturing Informal sector) was one of the example I gave you. Informal sector largely reflect the formal sector. I expect guys informal informal manufacturing are 10%; 30% doing agricultural services and the rest (60%) doing services (boda boda, saloonist,mechanic,phone repair, shopkeeper,mama mboga, tout,farmer).

Now let pause and look at situation now. We know from data we've seen that informal sector are not doing badly except those engaged in agricultural activities.I have seen earnings of 12-18K kshs per month on average for informal sector. I  have also seen data showing that for same level of education (0-16) the earning in informal sector if you remove agri is probably better than formal wages. Teacher or nurse formal earnings maybe 20k but someone with 12-14yrs of education engaged in informal sector maybe earning 30K kshs per month.

So what is missing puzzle btw our informal sector and USA's SME. CAPITAL & EDUCATION. We are fixing education with universal primary enrollment, really great secondary transition, and universities & colleges (need to do more) that have expanded the last 10yrs. We are also fixing capital...with technology, mpesa,agent banking and bottom pyramid banking.Your boda boda dude [I assume 8-12yrs of education] should be able to borrow money, invest in better boda boda or move to bigger town, engage in delivery services, join uber like boda boda service, get more customers, save and buy taxi, marry late & sire less kids (coz he went to school) - and generally fair as well as boda boda (taxi) dude in the USA.In the meantime this guy is becoming formal...joining the systems, having NHIF card, NSSF, bank account, paying taxes (m-pesa or bank transaction). All theses feed the private household, enterprises and gov.

We have evidence that we are fastly formalizing the informal sector...we just need to accelerate this. If their average salary move from 20k shs per month to 60-100shs per month -in the next 10yrs- then we would have become a upper middle income (2030).

The only guys we have to worry about are those in agri - who seem like a lost cause - mostly based in rural areas with little education --making poor life choices --and this where gov has to borrow chinese, world bank and everyone - and invest in huge infrastructure - and hopefully hire these lots as mjengo guy - sholving and pushing wheelbarrows.
 
Of course without savings from selling stuff around the world, we also hope to be lucky with natural resources, so turkana oil will come in handy.


I agree with you on the need to "upgrade" the jua-kali+informal sector, as do many experts---and I am not one---who have looked into the matter.  And I quite like the idea of Mr./Ms. Jua Kali sending his/her "recognized sufuria brand" all over the place.   I think where we disagree overall is in the relative weights of manufacturing vs. services, what should drive what, ... in a developing country.

In your example: If the spouse and kids (assuming they are not under-age, otherwise one expects them to be in school) are not getting paid, then their contribution to the "service" economy is not what it should be; the main point in employment is to get paid, and as a rule salespeople get paid.   So let's assume they are getting paid ... and for simplicity, let's ignore things like  a maid/"boy" being paid to replace the spouse, etc.    The IT guy will too expect to be paid---and much more than the "sales staff".     And so on, and so forth.   We therefore end up needing a lot of sufurias.     Maybe Mr./Ms. Jua Kali then employees more sufuria-makers or he/she borrows and invests in sufuria-producing technology that reduces the labour requirements.         No matter what he/she chooses, at the end of the day what drives the business and the employment of the other people is the production of sufurias, i.e. manufacturing: not enough  sufurias means the "service" people---spouse+kids salesforce, knowledge-economy IT guy, etc---have to go home.

(It is, of course, possible to have a huge services sector but without much in manufacturing, but there is a difference there between the situation in a developed country and a developing one.   It is even possible to have a relatively huge "return on  investment", but to what end?    For example, the guy who cuts my hair whenever I am in the "reserves" in Kenya has been at it for years, with his only "investment" being in scissors and a bad chair.)

Putting aside my "jocular" comments on neighbourly Mavoko boda-boda types, I am genuinely intrigued by your comments in that area.   Part of that is in a broad sense---e.g., at a national level,  how does that industry compare with that of Vietnam, which has been at it for ages---but part is purely personal: I have sponsored a relative into that industry, and the last time I looked at his "books"---actually an "exercise book"---I concluded that he is in for a long struggle .... so many rides per  day, bringing in at most so much per day, etc.     What are the successful ones doing?

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #107 on: September 22, 2016, 05:29:40 PM »
We know from data we've seen that informal sector are not doing badly except those engaged in agricultural activities.I have seen earnings of 12-18K kshs per month on average for informal sector.

I'd be interested to know where you have seen this.

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We have evidence that we are fastly formalizing the informal sector...we just need to accelerate this.

I'd be interested to see the evidence; what is happening seems to be in the other direction:    Looking at 2015 KNBS data, the informal sector accounted for 81% employment in 2010 and 83% in 2014.

Quote
If their average salary move from 20k shs per month to 60-100shs per month -in the next 10yrs- then we would have become a upper middle income (2030).

I'm astonished; where did you get that figure?   According to the World Bank, for that to happen, the economy would have to grow by at least 7% per year until 2030; it then notes that that has happened in only 4 of the last 40 years.
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #108 on: September 22, 2016, 05:37:26 PM »
I'll let you try google first. If you can't then pole. I say focus on the growth the last 10yrs. Not 40yrs. We've been growing at nearly 7% (if you remove PEV) and you add re-basing (which basically mean we are not measuring our economy as accurately as we should). So yeah are already doing 7%.....and will get there in 2030. We can get there faster...and we don't have to make stuff.
We know from data we've seen that informal sector are not doing badly except those engaged in agricultural activities.I have seen earnings of 12-18K kshs per month on average for informal sector.

I'd be interested to know where you have seen this.

Quote
We have evidence that we are fastly formalizing the informal sector...we just need to accelerate this.

I'd be interested to see the evidence; what is happening seems to be in the other direction:    Looking at 2015 KNBS data, the informal sector accounted for 81% employment in 2010 and 83% in 2014.

Quote
If their average salary move from 20k shs per month to 60-100shs per month -in the next 10yrs- then we would have become a upper middle income (2030).

I'm astonished; where did you get that figure?   According to the World Bank, for that to happen, the economy would have to grow by at least 7% per year until 2030; it then notes that that has happened in only 4 of the last 40 years.


Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #109 on: September 22, 2016, 05:58:17 PM »
I'll let you try google first. If you can't then pole. I say focus on the growth the last 10yrs. Not 40yrs. We've been growing at nearly 7% (if you remove PEV) and you add re-basing (which basically mean we are not measuring our economy as accurately as we should). So yeah are already doing 7%.....and will get there in 2030.

The whole point of the World Bank report is that getting to 7% won't be easy.   The data confirms that, an it is certainly not the case that we "are already doing 7%":

2011: 6.1%
2012: 4.6%
2013: 5.7%
2014: 5.3%
2015: 5.6%

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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #110 on: September 22, 2016, 06:10:05 PM »
Don't ignore rebasing and black informal economy.2006 our economy was 20B- and now it's 70B usd. That annualized for me is about 10% compounded growth rate. Therefore if we grew at same rate..by 2025..our economy would be 250B..and 2030..300B. About what RSA right now is...with about same pop (60M). That is nice place to be.
2012: 4.6%
2013: 5.7%
2014: 5.3%
2015: 5.6%

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #111 on: September 22, 2016, 06:46:26 PM »
Don't ignore rebasing and black informal economy.

What make you think I'm ignoring them?

Rebasing
: Rebasing changes how GDP is measured (i.e. what is included).   Once rebasing is done, the proper thing to do, to understand growth rates, is to go back and recompute old GDP figures using the new inclusions. 

The growth rates I listed above are from KNBS, and what KNBS did with the rebasing of 2014 was to go back and recompute both GDP and growth rates for the years 2006 to 2013 (2005 being the year of the last rebasing before 2014).     You can find all that in the KNBS report "Information on Revised National Accounts"?

Black informal economy:    Do you know how big it is?    Even if we could measure its value, add it to that to the current GDP figures, and end up with a larger figure for GDP, is there any reason to believe that there would be an appreciable (or any change) in the growth rate?    In fact, it is possible to imagine a scenario in which including the "black informal economy" led to smaller growth-rate figures
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #112 on: September 23, 2016, 07:50:41 AM »
In 2014- the economy after rebasing grew by 25%...if you smoother that over the previously years..then economy certainly grew more than 7%. I have seen some put economic growth of 2014 in 9%. I am not sure how they re-calculate this after re-basing but definitely kenya economy has grown from 18B in 2005 to 70B( in 2015)....and your pals at WB...never thought kenya was going to become middle income soon..and we did.

Even the dutch are say there will be no more aid....which is welcome..coz we need investment now.
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/No-Dutch-aid-for-Kenya-after-2020--minister-tells-parliament/539546-3391788-jnjoy2/index.html

In 2025 - I expect Kenyan economy to be where South Africa is now (middle income with gdp per capita of 5,000 and population of 60K..300B USD economy)...and by 2030..who knows...we might even be a upper middle income country.

What make you think I'm ignoring them?

Rebasing
: Rebasing changes how GDP is measured (i.e. what is included).   Once rebasing is done, the proper thing to do, to understand growth rates, is to go back and recompute old GDP figures using the new inclusions. 

The growth rates I listed above are from KNBS, and what KNBS did with the rebasing of 2014 was to go back and recompute both GDP and growth rates for the years 2006 to 2013 (2005 being the year of the last rebasing before 2014).     You can find all that in the KNBS report "Information on Revised National Accounts"?

Black informal economy:    Do you know how big it is?    Even if we could measure its value, add it to that to the current GDP figures, and end up with a larger figure for GDP, is there any reason to believe that there would be an appreciable (or any change) in the growth rate?    In fact, it is possible to imagine a scenario in which including the "black informal economy" led to smaller growth-rate figures

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #113 on: September 23, 2016, 08:34:02 AM »
Here someone attempting to formalize mama mboga - 700M USD fresh produce market in Nairobi. There are 40,000 mama mbogas...and these guys are using technologgy to formalize them into modern business. Excting stuff.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #114 on: September 23, 2016, 08:36:11 AM »
In 2014- the economy after rebasing grew by 25%...if you smoother that over the previously years..then economy certainly grew more than 7%.

You seem to be measuring your own things.      What rebasing did was change the size of the GDP figures from the time of the last rebasing.  But that is quite a different matter from GDP growth rate (however it is measured).  And that is because rebasing changes the figures for the preceding year, not just for the year in which it takes place.   Let me give you an example:

(a) Suppose you counted your money last month and decided you had 10 shillings; you count it this month and decide  you have 20 shillings.    You may claim a 100% improvement.

(b)  Now suppose you then find out that your counting was faulty---that last month you actually had 20 shillings, and this month you actually have 40 shillings.   The figures here are larger than in (a), but you may still claim only a 100% improvement.

What is completely illogical is to take the 10 shillings from (a) and the 40 shillings from (b) and decide that you have a 300% improvement in the state of your "economy".  You can't use the 40 shillings in (b) to "smooth over" the 10 shillings from (a) because last month's figure has also changed!

Quote
I have seen some put economic growth of 2014 in 9%.

2014 is past, and we have the figure: KNBS says it is 5.3%.    I could ask where you have "seen some put it", but that would probably bring forth "nitpicking!".   So I won't.    But the fantastic 9% makes me wonder whether you and your friends are even measuring the same things as everyone else.     For example, you wrote that:

Quote
2006 our economy was 20B- and now it's 70B usd. That annualized for me is about 10% compounded growth rate.

That's not how an organization like KNBS measures GDP growth rate.   
« Last Edit: September 23, 2016, 09:37:38 AM by MOON Ki »
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #115 on: September 23, 2016, 08:57:14 AM »
Interesting technical debate I rather not have. The economy the last 10yrs grew from 18B to 65B. If we grow at the same rate for the next decade; then our 70B economy will be  300B in 2026. Gdp per capita similary grew from about 500 to now about 1500. Grow it at rate..and you're looking at 5000 per capita. That is where South Africa is and where we will be in 10yrs.

In 2014- the economy after rebasing grew by 25%...if you smoother that over the previously years..then economy certainly grew more than 7%.

You seem to be measuring your own things.      What rebasing did was change the size of the GDP figures from the time of the last rebasing.  But that is quite a different matter from GDP growth rate (however it is measured).  And that is because rebasing changes the figures for the preceding year, not just for the year in which it takes place.   Let me give you an example:

(a) Suppose you counted your money last month and decided you had 10 shillings; you count it this month and decide  you have 20 shillings.    You may claim a 100% improvement.

(b)  Now suppose you then find out that your counting was faulty---that last month you actually had 20 shillings, and this month you actually have 40 shillings.   The figures here are larger than in (a), but you may still claim only a 100% improvement.

What is completely illogical is to take the 10 shillings from (a) and the 40 shillings from (b) and decide that you have a 400% improvement in the state of your "economy".  You can't use the 40 shillings in (b) to "smooth over" the 10 shillings from (a) because last month's figure has also changed!

Quote
I have seen some put economic growth of 2014 in 9%.

2014 is past, and we have the figure: KNBS says it is 5.3%.    I could ask where you have "seen some put it", but that would probably bring forth "nitpicking!".   So I won't.    But the fantastic 9% makes me wonder whether you and your friends are even measuring the same things as everyone else.     For example, you wrote that:

Quote
2006 our economy was 20B- and now it's 70B usd. That annualized for me is about 10% compounded growth rate.

That's not how an organization like KNBS measures GDP growth rate.   

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #116 on: September 23, 2016, 09:23:10 AM »
Interesting technical debate I rather not have.


Yes.   Sometimes facts and directed questions can be awkward.

Quote
The economy the last 10yrs grew from 18B to 65B. If we grow at the same rate for the next decade; then our 70B economy will be  300B in 2026. Gdp per capita similary grew from about 500 to now about 1500. Grow it at rate..and you're looking at 5000 per capita.

Interesting numbers and predictions.   Lower bounds from one place, upper bounds from another place.     Anyways .... On the one hand, RV-Pundit economics; on the other hand, World-Bank economics.     It's a tough choice.
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #117 on: September 23, 2016, 09:37:11 AM »
I'd go for the upper bound considering once again the huge informal sector is hard to measure and WB were wrong ; according to their previous estimate; we are not suppose to be a low middle income country. I am struggling though to understand your point. Kenya GDP & GDP per capita will rise 4 times in the next decade...and will be the size of South Africa now by the time Ruto complete his first term in 2027. That is very obvious..barring a disaster..kenya is auto-pilot to grow by  6% (and more if we get serious or lucky). And kenya will do this without having to become manufacturing giant. Optimistically our GDP per capita may reach 10,000USD in next 15-20yrs. That will be near upper middle income country...and by 2040..I expect kenya to be a developed country.
Interesting numbers and predictions.   Lower bounds from one place, upper bounds from another place.     Anyways .... On the one hand, RV-Pundit economics; on the other hand, World-Bank economics.     It's a tough choice.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #118 on: September 23, 2016, 11:46:09 AM »
Looking at demographics; Kenya clearly has turned the corner..and is set to enjoy demographic divided.
Pop growth rate has reduced from 4% to about 2.7%.....meaning households and govs have reducing backlog of mouths to fee.
Median age is improving from 15yrs to 20yrs...meaning you've got more working people supporting fewer kids & older people.
Mortality rate (child,under 5, etc) is reducing and life expectancy is improving...meaning less pop growth rate & more working pop.

Offline bryan275

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Re: Dr Ndii on Kenya bellycrats pervasive incompetence
« Reply #119 on: September 27, 2016, 06:10:04 AM »
One wonders what's more sturdy in the long term,  the UKs amazing financial services or Germany's efficient heavy industries.

IN the meantime,  it's become very obvious that Tony Blair and Co convinced (grovelled?) the Japanese Nissan and Honda to set up shop in England and Wales.

Grovelling works.