Author Topic: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage  (Read 55899 times)

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #80 on: September 18, 2015, 06:36:09 PM »
Terminator, since it's her conscience and not yours that is on the line, why does what you THINK is in line with christian morality matter AT ALL?
Bella,

I am just going by what I understand about Christianity.  If she were something else like maybe Muslim, then she might really not be able to reconcile with the job.

The issue is really about tolerance.  Tolerance does not equate to endorsement.  If I sell fireworks for Diwali, I can choose to see it as endorsing or supporting Hindu beliefs.  But I can also choose to see it as tolerance for the same.  Christianity, as practiced today is for the most part, tolerant.  That is something I consider to be going for it.  She has chosen the bad and the ugly of her religion over the good.

To consider an extreme example.  For argument's purpose, suppose an Inca or Aztec immigrant is prevented from sacrificing the neighbor's daughter to the sun God.  Would you consider that a violation of his beliefs/conscience etc?  Probably not.  And in this case, he'd just have to bite the bullet.

It's really about tolerance and a recognition of the limits of religion in a secular state.
No it is not. Tolerance would be this: The gay person gets their wedding, the religious person gets to not take part. No one here loses their rights. What you think is tolerance instead looks like this: The state determines for everyone that gay marriage is moral, and then the religious person loses their right to consider it immoral and not take part in it themselves. Now, THAT looks like a state religion to me, not limits to religion. The human sacrifice involves taking away another's right to life, it's more like abortion than what the baker is asking for. No one has any entitlement to another person's labour, unless we want to endorse slavery here. Instead, what seems like a balance is that unless the service here can be found nowhere else, the gay couple can find the gazillion other bakers happy to take their money, and leave the one christian woman who does not want to help celebrate sin alone. That is the limits of religion. Not just running roughshod over people's moral objections in the name of protecting others whose so-called rights aren't even in danger.
The morality of the wedding is up to the individual to decide.  I think the state is just ensuring that people are served equally within those constraints of the law; don't pick out gays, blacks, immigrants etc for different treatment on the basis of those attributes. 

In other words, the bakery is free to find other excuses not serve them.  Maybe they are closed for lunch break every time the couple shows up.  Or there is just no one to take their order.  Something legitimate.  Sexual orientation of the customer is not a legitimate reason. 

The baker was asking to be allowed to limit the rights of the gay couple, illegally.  I think that is what the judgement was based on.  It was not a judgment on their rights to hold their beliefs, except in so far as they infringe on what the court determined was a more important right.  It's a tough call for the judge to make, but I think they made the right one.
The baker did not refuse to serve them on the basis of their orientation. If that was true,  she would have shut them out of her business years ago. What she refused to do was play a part in a wedding that is sinful.
Ok.  That might have been the baker's view.  But can't you see how it boils down to the same thing?
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #81 on: September 18, 2015, 06:40:51 PM »
The baker did not refuse to serve them on the basis of their orientation.

So said the bakers.   The line they tried to sell reminded me of racists who "have no problems with blacks" and will "work with them" just as long as they don't get up to certain things---such as fuck white women.   Fortunately, the law tries to look at unlawful discrimination in a "uniform" way.   

I actually found it quite funny: they  said "we have no problem with gays" and then  followed up with "we will not give them a cake because they are gay and will use it to celebrate a wedding". 

One more time, what the judge said:

Quote


Really quite simple.   Doesn't leave much wiggle-room, as far as I can see.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #82 on: September 18, 2015, 06:59:12 PM »
The baker did not refuse to serve them on the basis of their orientation.

So said the bakers.   The line they tried to sell reminded me of racists who "have no problems with blacks" and will "work with them" just as long as they don't get up to certain things---such as fuck white women.   Fortunately, the law tries to look at unlawful discrimination in a "uniform" way.   

I actually found it quite funny: they  said "we have no problem with gays" and then  followed up with "we will not give them a cake because they are gay and will use it to celebrate a wedding". 

One more time, what the judge said:

Quote


Really quite simple.   Doesn't leave much wiggle-room, as far as I can see.
I think the judge figured that their definition of sinful wedding unfairly singled out gays.  In the early days after slavery, states in the South passed laws that made it difficult for blacks to vote, without once mentioning race.  They just picked out attributes that disproportionately affected recently freed slaves.  I have noticed a tendency for good judges to look past such arguments and instead look at the overall effect of permitting certain actions to determine if they are discriminatory or not.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline veritas

  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 3347
  • Reputation: 4790
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #83 on: September 18, 2015, 07:17:41 PM »
The baker did not refuse to serve them on the basis of their orientation.

So said the bakers.   The line they tried to sell reminded me of racists who "have no problems with blacks" and will "work with them" just as long as they don't get up to certain things---such as fuck white women.   Fortunately, the law tries to look at unlawful discrimination in a "uniform" way.   

I actually found it quite funny: they  said "we have no problem with gays" and then  followed up with "we will not give them a cake because they are gay and will use it to celebrate a wedding". 

One more time, what the judge said:

Quote


Really quite simple.   Doesn't leave much wiggle-room, as far as I can see.

Judge - pure ignorence.

Christians honor marriage for Yahweh. Marriage was written into Western law in respect to Christian monagomy. Paul's writing  i.e. his letter to the Corinthians. In Islam they have the sharia laws - they also honor marriage for Allah.

Homosexual marriages are not the same as heterosexual marriages. Marriage for legal rights is not the same as religious honor.

Marriage is more than just two couples coming together. It's age old ritual ceremonies in preparation for life i.e. produce life- baby.

Homosexual marriages not only bring into law and practice what isn't natural, its repercussions permeate into producing life via artificial means. It's sowing seeds for a destructive future for humanity as a whole.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #84 on: September 18, 2015, 07:34:59 PM »
Marriage for legal rights is not the same as religious honor.

That is an excellent point.   The law and courts are not concerned with "religious honor"; their primary concern is with certain procedures that guarantee certain rights to certain people.    In regard to that concern, the courts have issues with people injecting religion where it has no place and its use is forbidden.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8728
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #85 on: September 18, 2015, 07:47:14 PM »
An interesting point.  I am not sure if the judges use it.  But it seems to me that you have to give order of precedence to rights.  For when they come into conflict.

First are what I consider primary rights.  Those related to things we have no choice about.  Life.  Gender.  Sexual orientation(Ben Carson begs to differ).  Race.  Birthplace etc.

Below those are rights related to choices.  Religion.  Political affiliations.  Conscience etc.  These rights are or should be subordinate to the primary ones.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #86 on: September 18, 2015, 08:15:33 PM »
I think the judge figured that their definition of sinful wedding unfairly singled out gays. 

It was more that that.   And note that at the time this happened Colorado did not  allow or recognize gay marriage, and the Supreme Court had not made its major ruling.   In fact, when their "conscience" got stretched, the bakers happily trotted the former into court.

The bakers stated that they did not make cakes for weddings by gays, and in court proceedings they confirmed that as their position.   They then went on to argue that their refusal had nothing to do with sexual orientation; they just didn't care for gays getting married.    That's a funny one to try and sell.

In addition to the original decision, here is how the appellate court, somewhat dryly, put it:

Quote

The courts also pointed out a couple of things, which are significant for those who wish to argue that by baking the cake the bakers would somehow be supporting or approving or participating in whatever:

(a) First, as a matter of simple common sense, people do not think that those who supply materials for weddings and suchlike are "supporting or approving or participating".  Not those involved in the marriage or even those merely attending.    People see it as no more than a business transaction.

(b) Second, if the bakers have their doubts in regard to (a), then what they can do is put up signs and so forth stating that by supplying cakes they are not necessarily "supporting or approving or participating". 

Finally a note to those who do not wish to see such cases connected to the struggle by blacks for rights:   The courts which finally acted in regard to that struggle see it differently and have repeatedly made the connection clear.   In the bakers' case, the appellate court cited this from 1964: 

Quote
Undoubtedly defendant . . . has a constitutional right to espouse the religious beliefs of his own choosing, however, he does not have the absolute right to exercise and practice such beliefs in utter disregard of the clear constitutional rights of other citizens. This Court refuses to lend credence or support to his position that he has a constitutional right to refuse to serve members of the Negro race in his business establishment upon the ground that to do so would violate his sacred religious beliefs.

A major issue in the discussion of these cases has to do with the fact that quite a few people do not understand "public accommodation laws" and seem to think that "if it's their labour or their business or whatever, then they may freely indulge in unlawful discrimination".   Not so.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #87 on: September 18, 2015, 10:24:08 PM »
The baker did not refuse to serve them on the basis of their orientation.
I actually found it quite funny: they  said "we have no problem with gays" and then  followed up with "we will not give them a cake because they are gay and will use it to celebrate a wedding". 
That is what YOU say they said..... because they are gay,  my foot. We will not bake a cake to celebrate the sexual union of two men. We will bake a cake for the couple for their birthday any day,  but not for a celebration of gay sex. You can't argue against that so you insert "because they are gay" to falsely equivocate it to racial discrimination. You have dodged the question I asked before,  if the baker's issue was not to serve people "because they are gay" explain then how it is that she DOES in fact serve gay people for years before all this meddling. If she has problems with  gay people,  she would not be serving gay people,  which she happily does as well as employ them. The "because they are gay" is a motive artificially imposed by you and this judge,  because you have no other way of stepping on her freedom of conscience except by lies.

Quote
One more time, what the judge said:

Quote


Really quite simple.   Doesn't leave much wiggle-room, as far as I can see.
One more time: it is nonsense even if the person who says it is a judge. If arguments from authority are all you have then what a pity. Being gay and having gay sex or engaging in gay marriage are not equivalent. Being gay is just an interior predisposition/attraction. A characteristic of the person. Engaging in gay sex is a behaviour many believe to be morally problematic to say the least. The baker refuses to support the behaviour!  He has no problem serving the persons whatever their orientations. No matter how many times you keep quoting someone,  if what he says isn't true, or logically consistent,  it will remain nonsense. Now,  try again.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2015, 10:30:02 PM »
The old lady who was basically ruined after fined for 150 thousand dollars for not performing a service for a gay wedding

There you go again, a "Good & Devout Christian" making up stories that would embarrass even Satan & His Evil Spawn.   

First, there is no "old lady".   The woman is relatively young and would even look semi-attractive is she exercised and stopped eating some of her own products.



Second, nobody was "basically ruined".   They were fined $150K but their supporters quickly raised $352K for them.   So they actually did quite well out of it.   They are in fact doing quite well: you can confirm this, as I did,  by asking the "old lady" at melissa@sweetcakesweb.com

Third, she did refuse to sell a wedding cake on the basis that the people were gay.   The fact that she was willing to sell, or had been selling, other products to any number of gays does not change the fact that she broke the law in that refusal.    One more time: the law-breaking was not a generic 'we won't serve gays"; it was that particular case.

Quote
How do you figure that when SERVING GAY PEOPLE in her business both as customers and employees is exactly what she has been doing and continues to do?

She had been selling wedding cakes to gays?   If so, then someone forgot to bring it to the court's attention.   But I certainly hope that she is no longer engaged in unlawful discrimination.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2015, 10:36:00 PM »
That is what YOU say they said..... because they are gay,  my foot.

No, no, no.  It's what they cheerfully admitted to in court.   Go look at the court documents.

Quote
she DOES in fact serve gay people for years before all this meddling. If she has problems with  gay people,  she would not be serving gay people,  which she happily does  as well as employ them.

Once again the importance of getting facts right: you have thoroughly confused your bakers.   The Colorado one---which is the one discussed in the court document---is in fact a guy and quite different from the Oregon one you claim is a "ruined old lady".  In any case, neither involves an old lady, nor has anyone been ruined.
 
Quote
Now,  try again.

Try what?  The court is dealing with them, and all I am doing is stating my vigorous support and encouragement.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #90 on: September 18, 2015, 10:37:26 PM »
Good for those who raised the money!  I read this woman's letter of appeal to the AG who wished to ruin her by imposing the exorbitant fines explaining that she would be ruined. If Christians felt the same amount of pity I felt for her and raised the money,  then more power to them (and her! ) Still doesn't take away the fact that they tried to ruin her completely,  only that others intervened. There are still enough sensible people after all.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #91 on: September 18, 2015, 10:39:02 PM »
And you just keep roboticalky saying it is because they were gay,  actually showing that is apparently a mountainous task to you. Explain to me how anyone who allegedly refuses to serve people "because they are gay" serves people who are gay.... for the gazillionth time?
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #92 on: September 18, 2015, 10:43:49 PM »
That is what YOU say they said..... because they are gay,  my foot.

No, no, no.  It's what they cheerfully admitted to in court.   Go look at the court documents.

Quote
she DOES in fact serve gay people for years before all this meddling. If she has problems with  gay people,  she would not be serving gay people,  which she happily does  as well as employ them.

Once again the importance of getting facts right: you have thoroughly confused your bakers.   The Colorado one---which is the one discussed in the court document---is in fact a guy and quite different from the Oregon one you claim is a "ruined old lady".
 
Quote
Now,  try again.

Try what?  The court is dealing with them, and all I am doing is stating my vigorous support and encouragement.
You are the one who brought up the Colorado case after I started talking about the woman who employed and served gaynpeople for years,  includingthe ccouple that tried to ruin her when they decided she should bake a cake for their wedding and she said "that one,  hapana". Besides,  it doesn't really matter which case it is,  the bakers were all refusing to bake for a gay wedding,  not simply to serve gay couples as people,  which is what you desperately want to impose on them just because a judge shares your confusion.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #93 on: September 18, 2015, 10:52:13 PM »
You are the one who brought up the Colorado case after

There is no excuse for your making up lies and stories about old ladies that have supposedly been ruined.

Quote
the bakers were all refusing to bake for a gay wedding,  not simply to serve gay couples as people,

That one is funny.   So when gays get married it is not as people?

Quote
which is what you desperately want to impose on them just because a judge shares your confusion.

I'm not imposing anything on anyone; it is the judges---not just one!---who insist on imposing the law.   You may consider those judges confused, but I'm pretty sure they will succeed.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #94 on: September 18, 2015, 11:05:55 PM »
You are the one who brought up the Colorado case after

There is no excuse for your making up lies and stories about old ladies that have supposedly been ruined.

Quote
the bakers were all refusing to bake for a gay wedding,  not simply to serve gay couples as people,

That one is funny.   So when gays get married it is not as people?
I did not make up lies,  I believed she was ruined. I am very glad she not only wasn't ruined but did better than her haters had planned for her. Now,  Is that all you got after all your non arguments have failed?

So when addicts do drugs it's not as people?  The depths you wont sink to.....  that's not funny,  tragic is more like it. Apparently if I serve these addicts as people in my pharmacy when they are sick but refuse to cater to their addictions otherwise,  it'll be treating them as other than people. Some people actually swallow this emotional b.s. passing for arguments,  I imagine. Youvwouldnt otherwise be making them.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #95 on: September 18, 2015, 11:09:11 PM »
I did not make up lies,  I believed she was ruined.

Without any evidence.   And you "believed" she was an old lady, without any evidence. Right?    Lies is when people simply make up stuff.  And you are so forceful about your stories!  The poor liitle old lady ruined by evil anti-Christian powers!   Weep, weep, weep.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #96 on: September 18, 2015, 11:10:21 PM »
I did not make up lies,  I believed she was ruined.

Without any evidence.   And you "believed" she was an old lady, without any evidence. Right?    Lies is when people simply make up stuff.
She is an old lady who is at least 60,  right?  Why should I care what you think is old or not?
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #97 on: September 18, 2015, 11:16:22 PM »
I did not make up lies,  I believed she was ruined.

Without any evidence.   And you "believed" she was an old lady, without any evidence. Right?    Lies is when people simply make up stuff.  And you are so forceful about your stories!  The poor liitle old lady ruined by evil anti-Christian powers!   Weep, weep, weep.
More emotional b.s. The woman was fined for an amount she said was IMPOSSIBLE for her to pay!!!! She would have to shut her business! That's what I call ruin. That other people apparently intervened doesn't change what you allude to in this poorly attempted sarcasm.... others stopped them from ruining her therefore they didn't try to ruin her????  Your big argument.....
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #98 on: September 18, 2015, 11:20:41 PM »
She is an old lady who is at least 60,  right?  Why should I care what you think is old or not?

Really?
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Bella

  • Superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 245
  • Reputation: 2409
Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #99 on: September 18, 2015, 11:20:42 PM »
Silly analogies. The person who issues licences has already FREELY contracted to carry out the Labour. You are supporting FORCING people into contracts. 

Not really.   There is no contract they are being forced into.   They are simply being required to obey the law, which says that they cannot discriminate on certain grounds if they run a certain type of business.   The fact that it is their labour or their privately owned business does not give them exceptions.   
I hadn't seen this other "gem" from before.... you are not being forced into a contract because a law exists that calls your being forced into a contract something else.... More from the great legal mind that is moon ki.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil