Author Topic: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage  (Read 55507 times)

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2015, 01:15:56 AM »
How To Extend 15 Minutes To 16 (OR How To Establish A Mini Theocracy At Work):

The original claim by the lady and her supporters was that this was all about "conscience" and "personal religious beliefs".   All they wanted was "accommodation", a "fairer balance", "respect for religious whatever", etc.  So they said. The thin end of the wedge.

At the end of last week, we thought this was all over: Judge Bunning stated as long as someone in her office is issuing licenses, that will do; she doesn't have to get involved ... just stay out of it.  Apparently that's not good enough for her.  She's back at it.

She has just made an application with the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals asking that everyone in her office be stopped from issuing marriage licenses to gays.  (Yes, that is the same court that a few weeks ago took all of one short paragraph to throw out her last request.)   

Obviously, the "all we want is accommodation/fairer balance/blah blah blah" angle has been exhausted.   But she needs a few more minutes---even though "I am no hero", as she modestly put it---and lawyers must run up billable hours.   So, she now has what is truly a bizarre claim.   (This time it's not about her, as she says; it's now about her office.) According to her, previous court decisions dealt with just the specific couples who sued her office and not with any others.   (Not what Judge Bunning thinks and "clarified".)    Therefore, now that those couples have got satisfaction, that's it; nobody else! She wants all others in that office stopped from issuing licenses.   
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Offline GeeMail

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2015, 03:41:46 PM »
The responses to this post surprise me in many ways. Of all the people, an avowed Catholic has come to the defense of religious liberty. Without sounding  patronizing, this is highly commendable given the history of the church, a fact that she openly admits in the post.

Second surprise, which is not really surprising, is that the resident false prophet has defended the right of the courts to jail people who exercise their right to uphold certain religious values. So for example, in Kenya, if you were working at the Lands office and somebody showed up with all the 'right' papers purporting to own Langata Primary School playgrounds, asking for a title deed, and your conscience tells you something is wrong, you cannot refuse to serve them (in this case, serving them means processing the title), you should go to jail. That's the resident false prophet for you.

Third surprise comes from MoonKi, who says from the same mouth that he respects Christianity and understands the law. He has defended the jailing of the county clerk and dismissed her claims to first amendment rights by virtue of the fact that she is an elected official in a public office. He has also compared gay rights to black civil rights (an assertion that Bella has rightfully and adequately dismissed). MoonKi claims he did not compare gay rights to black civil rights and only used it as an example to show how erroneous religious belief can be used to defend irrational decisions. Quite surprising from a lawyer.

Back to the Kim Davis story. A small line has escaped the attention of some on this thread. The judge has attempted to use jail (as opposed to the option of fine, which was perfectly applicable in such circumstances) in an attempt to break Mrs Davis down. In other words, he wants her to accept to issue marriage certificates to gay couples against her conscience or be jailed. Somehow it escapes MoonKi's mind that the judge in an attempt to punish Mrs Davis for allegedly abusing public office has abused the privilege of public judicial office. Some things only happen in America and in Nipate.
.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #42 on: September 16, 2015, 05:11:50 PM »
.....

I really don't know what you have been reading, but it looks like too much "holiness" has affected you.   I will skip on most of the products of that "holiness", such as the continuation of the funny one about gay/black rights, but a few comments on a couple of paragraphs:

Quote
So for example, in Kenya, if you were working at the Lands office and somebody showed up with all the 'right' papers purporting to own Langata Primary School playgrounds, asking for a title deed, and your conscience tells you something is wrong, you cannot refuse to serve them (in this case, serving them means processing the title), you should go to jail. That's the resident false prophet for you.

This is an odd example for the point you are trying to argue, but it presents an opportunity for you to learn a few things.  Please pay careful attention.

When Kim Davis filed papers claiming that her name and signature would indicate her approval, the judge pointed to her that: 

(a) There is nothing like her "approval" involved in such matters.

(b) All that the law requires of her office iss a check of the accuracy of information given on the form filled to apply for the marriage certificate and that the people were eligible to be married in the state.   If that is confirmed, then the law requires that the certificate be issued; otherwise not.

(c) Nothing in that check for accuracy involves anyone's conscience or religious beliefs.

In your absurd example, you have taken the same path as Kim Davis and injected "conscience" where none need be involved: If the person responsible for issuing titled deeds considers that there is something improper with the papers given, then he or she may refuse to issue the title deed.   In fact the law requires it, and he or she could get sued for issuing a title deed on the basis of faulty papers.   The matter would then dealt with in a court of law, with forensic tests and whatever else is applicable, and the basis would be the accuracy of the papers submitted.   But no court will accept "my conscience says these papers are not right" as an argument; so people not better go around using their "conscience" to evaluate the accuracy of legal documents. 

Quote
Back to the Kim Davis story. A small line has escaped the attention of some on this thread. The judge has attempted to use jail (as opposed to the option of fine, which was perfectly applicable in such circumstances) in an attempt to break Mrs Davis down. In other words, he wants her to accept to issue marriage certificates to gay couples against her conscience or be jailed. Somehow it escapes MoonKi's mind that the judge in an attempt to punish Mrs Davis for allegedly abusing public office has abused the privilege of public judicial office. Some things only happen in America and in Nipate.

* What the judge wants is that her office issue the papers.

* As long as that office---not her personally---is issuing the papers, nobody has any problems with her.   In fact, the judges orders are that she stay away from those issuing the papers.

* Although now free and not required to issues the papers, she seemingly insists that her "conscience" extend to other people, and she wants to stop them!

* Those who think that the judge "public office has abused the privilege of public judicial office" are free to take up the matter with the relevant higher courts.   That's going to be a mission-impossible, given the stances taken by relevant Court of Appeal and the Supreme Court that support his position, but your are equally free to argue that it has escaped the minds of all those judges too.

As I have pointed out elsewhere on this thread, if you want to argue such things as the blue (and things about "rights"), then the proper way to do it is to go through his decision and point out where the judge erred.   Arguments based on your "conscience" will not do.
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Offline GeeMail

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #43 on: September 16, 2015, 05:24:04 PM »
correction. It's Real Pokots who dismissed the gay-is-new-black example MoonKi attempted to use as a camouflage.

MoonKi why is reliance on conscience not useful in your opinion? Why is it absurd to rely on conscience over private ownership of school playgrounds but nothing absurd two men claiming a marriage certificate from a Bible believer? The argument that Mrs Davis should quit public office is a violation of her right as a taxpaying US citizen to run for public office and to hold such office with her conscience and all of her person.
You must have read stories of Kenyans in sham marriages who have been busted simply because the marriage officers got a hunch something was not right just by observing the couples behavior.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #44 on: September 16, 2015, 05:42:45 PM »
correction. It's Real Pokots who dismissed the gay-is-new-black example MoonKi attempted to use as a camouflage.

MoonKi why is reliance on conscience not useful in your opinion? Why is it absurd to rely on conscience over private ownership of school playgrounds but nothing absurd two men claiming a marriage certificate from a Bible believer? The argument that Mrs Davis should quit public office is a violation of her right as a taxpaying US citizen to run for public office and to hold such office with her conscience and all of her person.
You must have read stories of Kenyans in sham marriages who have been busted simply because the marriage officers got a hunch something was not right just by observing the couples behavior.

Daily Bread, you sure are a funny guy!   I can readily see why vooke is so fond of you.   What's your brand of "holy water"?
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Offline mya88

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #45 on: September 16, 2015, 08:59:50 PM »
correction. It's Real Pokots who dismissed the gay-is-new-black example MoonKi attempted to use as a camouflage.

MoonKi why is reliance on conscience not useful in your opinion? Why is it absurd to rely on conscience over private ownership of school playgrounds but nothing absurd two men claiming a marriage certificate from a Bible believer? The argument that Mrs Davis should quit public office is a violation of her right as a taxpaying US citizen to run for public office and to hold such office with her conscience and all of her person.
You must have read stories of Kenyans in sham marriages who have been busted simply because the marriage officers got a hunch something was not right just by observing the couples behavior.

Daily Bread, you sure are a funny guy!   I can readily see why vooke is so fond of you.   What's your brand of "holy water"?
Lol, I quite enjoy how he likes to take the pastor in circles to nowhere. DB is tryin to get apple juice out of oranges.....hawesmake.
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline vooke

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #46 on: September 16, 2015, 09:29:03 PM »
Nuff Sed,
You are a retard and you confuse your obstinacy and stupidity for faith. This is a Negro/IQ thing not SDA.

Philippians 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,


Paul was a Pharisee, part of the world. He persecuted and oversaw their deaths for a living. Then when Christ called him, and counted it it SHIT. He could not remain part of the world and serve Christ and throw tantrums about his 'rights' or 'conscience'; he said 'keep your SHIT, am now serving Christ'

If she 'felt' issuing the certificates is 'not right', she ought to have enough neurons to remind her that she was not hired to consult her conscience but to issue them. This is exactly why she got paid; issuing licences regardless of her convictions. The Saudis were the other day hirin executioners. If the executioner has no cojones to whack a neck, he is fired pronto, or he resigns pap!

This woman is not helping the Christian cause by bitching she is just addicted to cameras, and she is making Christianity look like Adventism; a faith of retards with a mega-persecution complex. She badly needs some crash course on lesbianism as only American jails can give
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #47 on: September 16, 2015, 10:37:51 PM »
This woman is not helping the Christian cause by bitching she is just addicted to cameras,

Ah.   I saw one of her TV performances, in which she stated that:

Quote
"I just want to serve my neighbors quietly

So "quietly" that some of her paperwork in the courts had been forgotten by most folks.     Among is a pending case, before the Court of Appeal (6th Circuit), to the effect that the governor of Kentucky done her wrong by insisting that all county clerks in the state issue marriage licenses to all who qualify.   She has been asking that the office not be forced to issue licenses until that case is settled, i.e. for an injunction against orders given by a lower court.  (This is quite different from the most recent paperwork asking that that folks in that office be stopped because of ...)

Three judges of the Court of Appeal have just ruled that they will not stop the issuing of licenses,  because that appeal, which they will not stop, is not likely to go anywhere.   (Issuing an injunction was a matter of discretion.)  It took the judges all of 3 pages to do that.

http://www.startribune.com/court-again-denies-kim-davis-bid-to-delay-marriage-licenses/327792821/

I found something else quite interesting in reading the actual court papers:  The lady's argument has been that her name or signature somehow indicates or suggests or she implies that she approves or condones or supports marriage.    That is what she is, essentially, putting to the Court of Appeal.   

Here is the interesting part: the name and signature at the end of the latest ruling is that of the clerk who "entered" it into the record; the three judges are "involved" only in the "before ... circuit judges" preamble, below the names of the plaintiffs and defendants .   So, 1+1=?   (I randomly went through the paperwork in just one court and wondered what would happen if clerks or others were to  exercise their "conscience".)
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Offline vooke

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #48 on: September 17, 2015, 05:30:14 AM »
I think it's either you or Omorlo who said Matsanga was dangerously close to being declared a vexatious litigant for his many frivolous applications.

There are better cases of suppression of 'right of following one's conscience' such as the cake shop, and she is formenting the public attitude against Christians as petty. Then there is the fact that the boot may be on the other foot,and a faggot couple sues TD Jakes for comments on a YouTube clip that really wrecked them emotionally to the extent of losing their jobs and developing suicidal thoughts.

It could be worse; it could be satanists pushing their agenda just a aggresively and forcing Nuff Sed kids within her SDA school to take a class in Wicca and astrology.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #49 on: September 17, 2015, 03:53:38 PM »
I think it's either you or Omorlo who said Matsanga was dangerously close to being declared a vexatious litigant for his many frivolous applications.

There are better cases of suppression of 'right of following one's conscience' such as the cake shop, and she is formenting the public attitude against Christians as petty. Then there is the fact that the boot may be on the other foot,and a faggot couple sues TD Jakes for comments on a YouTube clip that really wrecked them emotionally to the extent of losing their jobs and developing suicidal thoughts.

It could be worse; it could be satanists pushing their agenda just a aggresively and forcing Nuff Sed kids within her SDA school to take a class in Wicca and astrology.
The cake shop refused to make them a cake because they are gay.  I am against that behavior.  Bigots everywhere should be made to feel uncomfortable.  Gone are the times they stood proudly and announced that they hate Niggers and be applauded for their conscience.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline vooke

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #50 on: September 17, 2015, 09:10:02 PM »
The cake shop refused to make them a cake because they are gay.  I am against that behavior.  Bigots everywhere should be made to feel uncomfortable.  Gone are the times they stood proudly and announced that they hate Niggers and be applauded for their conscience.
Next they will be suing churches for preaching against faggotry. That is not bigotry, that's US aggressively forcing its citizenry to accept and celebrate faggotry and when they complain they are reminded of Luther King. Shame
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #51 on: September 17, 2015, 10:37:02 PM »
The cake shop refused to make them a cake because they are gay.  I am against that behavior.  Bigots everywhere should be made to feel uncomfortable.  Gone are the times they stood proudly and announced that they hate Niggers and be applauded for their conscience.
Next they will be suing churches for prfrig against faggotry. That is not bigotry, that's US aggressively forcing its citizenry to accept and celebrate faggotry and when they complain they are reminded of Luther King. Shame
Like I said before,  the "public office" mantra is a ruse. People like Terminator would like to see Christians lose their right to not sin in their own businesses. It has nothing to do with so called fears of theocracies and other such claims.


Terminator you are telling bald faced lies about bakers refusing to serve people "because they are gay". The particular old lady who was fined had served and HIRED gay customers and employees for YEARS fully knowing them to be gay. She had no problem "serving gay people" she had always done it happily. What she did not want to do was take part in a gay wedding. Something I myself would not do any more than I can willingly take part in a ceremony inducting my friend into prostitution or celebrating it or anything like that,  even though I now have more than just one gay friend who I genuinely love and would happily serve in any other way that did not involve me helping them celebrate what I believe to be sin.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2015, 12:43:13 AM »
Terminator you are telling bald faced lies about bakers refusing to serve people "because they are gay". The particular old lady who was fined had served and HIRED gay customers and employees for YEARS fully knowing them to be gay. She had no problem "serving gay people" she had always done it happily. What she did not want to do was take part in a gay wedding. Something I myself would not do any more than I can willingly take part in a ceremony inducting my friend into prostitution or celebrating it or anything like that,  even though I now have more than just one gay friend who I genuinely love and would happily serve in any other way that did not involve me helping them celebrate what I believe to be sin.

Bella:

It is you, the "Good & Devout Christian", who is peddling "bald faced lies".   The people refused to sell a cake to those they consider gay.   The idea that the issue was about the fact that "what she did not want to do was take part in a gay wedding" is just something you have made up.  The legal rulings (and any accurate reporting) make that clear.   

And breaking the law is never excused on the basis of "some of my best friends are ..." and "I've even hired some of the good ones ...". 

The first-level decisions (Colorado Civil Rights Division and Judge Robert N. Spencer of the Colorado Office of Administrative Courts):

Quote

Please carefully read the bit in red.   "Deny service" = "Refuse to serve" and "same sex" = "gay".

This presented a legal problem because of  a very important point:

Quote
Longstanding Colorado state law prohibits public accommodations, including businesses such as Masterpiece Cakeshop, from refusing service based on factors such as race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation

http://aclu-co.org/court-cases/masterpiece-cakeshop/

The bakers went on to launch a legal appeal.    In the "background" part of the appellate court's decision, you will find this:

Quote
In July 2012, Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece, a bakery in Lakewood, Colorado, and requested that Phillips design and create a cake to celebrate their same-sex wedding. Phillips declined, telling them that he does not create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of his religious beliefs. 

Again, please careful note what the bakers refused to do, and note that the bakers cheerfully admitted this as one of the "material facts" they agreed was correct. 

That is a long, long way from your statement that:

Quote
she did not want to do was take part in a gay wedding. Something I myself would not do any more than I can willingly take part in a ceremony inducting my friend into prostitution or celebrating it or anything like that
https://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/Opinion/2015/14CA1351-PD.pdf

And here's another thing:

There seems to be some misunderstanding about "public" vs. "private".    Anti-discrimination laws actually make a finer distinction.   If for example, Walmart refused to serve a black person on the basis of race, or IBM fired an Indian on the basis of race, they would have good grounds to sue.  And so on and so forth.   The idea that if it's not a government institution, then discrimination is just fine was buried (one hopes) ages ago.    In Colorado, the issue is one of public accommodations.   As the first decision put it:

Quote
"Masterpiece remains free to continue espousing its religious beliefs, including its opposition to same-sex marriage.  However, if it wishes to operate as a public accommodation and conduct business within the State of Colorado, CADA prohibits it from picking and choosing customers based on their sexual orientation."
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Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2015, 01:38:42 AM »
In 1846, Gogol wrote this:

"It is sad not to see any good in goodness".

The context was a commentary on what the "Christian Church" had done and was doing in the name of "Christian goodness" and "saving souls".    In particular, the "Catholic Church" had an especially colourful history in that regard, e.g. tying people to a stake and burning them alive "for their own good".   One pope even complained about the quality of the torturers he had hired for "personal use"!   He used to listen while they worked on some of his cardinals---naturally, for their own good and to help them see the real meaning of something---and stated that the "low quality" screaming indicated a certain lack of proficiency.

And there's still plenty of "Christian good" going around these days.   A bit more "constrained", but it is evident on words.

Jesus noted this of the Pharisees: They had read and memorized every word that had been written, in certain places, on such matters.  They could argue and sustain all sorts of argument with "chapter and verse" quotations off the top of their heads.   But they didn't have the foggiest ideas of what it really meant.   A bit like those who, in commercials or graffiti or suchlike, write things like  E= MC^2: they put the letters and number in the right places; they know who "said" it; they know there's something "deep" there; and they know there is some one who will be impressed with the "learning" or whatever.  But that's about it. 

So it is that if you want to read of some of the vilest actions that human has carried out on human, the history of the "Christian Church" is better than fiction.   And if, today, you want to read truly foul language that humans have of other humans, the "good & devout" Christians will provide as good material and any of "Satan's spawn".   But, of course, the former are more loving .... just as nasty, though.

Christ himself was much more "mellow" than those who would "lead" us in the "Christian" way.   Hookers, thieves, whatever ... the "profession" never seemed to have cause him much "excitement".

To my mind, the essence of Christ's message is actually quite straightforward:

* Love they neighbor as thyself.

* Love God above all else.


That's pretty much it.    Can't go wrong with those as the guides.

Still, here we are.  Plenty of "Christianity" around, but very little of Christ in it.   100+ years after Gogol.   

Fortunately, the law is better (and better enforced) these days than when the "Church" was supreme.   
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Offline vooke

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2015, 08:27:41 AM »
Seems like the overarching theory is some things taught by churches before was bad like slavery, inferiority of the Negro, so Christians ought not to have their way just because they 'feel' so. Nuff Sed' sect of retards actively taught against interracial marriages until 1991 I doubt Adventism has ever had any biracial married minister at ANY level. Unless of course if they joined after marrying. It's only a matter of time before anti-Homosexuality stance is vilified and criminalized.

If sexual orientation is a right, preaching against it is bigotry. The next frontier will be targeting those against homosexuality for suits. Expressing the mere opinion will be criminal.

Larry King: Are you gay?
Joel Osteen:  no sir, am hetero and happily married for the last xxxx years
Larry King: is God indifferent to sexual orientation?
Joel Osteen: No sir, He is very particular on this matter. He only approves sexual union between adult male and female
Larry King: so.....so you saying God will NEVER bless a gay Union?
Joel Osteen: very true, Sodom from which we got the word sodomy was destroyed for the sin this very sin
Larry King: say what?
Joel Osteen: homosexuality is a sin and God is displeased with it


23 minutes later
CNN headlines
'Popular mega church minister slapped with a mega hate crimes suit'

Christians need to study how racists have thrived all these years
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2015, 08:52:15 AM »
Terminator you are telling bald faced lies about bakers refusing to serve people "because they are gay". The particular old lady who was fined had served and HIRED gay customers and employees for YEARS fully knowing them to be gay. She had no problem "serving gay people" she had always done it happily. What she did not want to do was take part in a gay wedding. Something I myself would not do any more than I can willingly take part in a ceremony inducting my friend into prostitution or celebrating it or anything like that,  even though I now have more than just one gay friend who I genuinely love and would happily serve in any other way that did not involve me helping them celebrate what I believe to be sin.

Bella:

It is you, the "Good & Devout Christian", who is peddling "bald faced lies".   The people refused to sell a cake to those they consider gay.   The idea that the issue was about the fact that "what she did not want to do was take part in a gay wedding" is just something you have made up.  The legal rulings (and any accurate reporting) make that clear.   

And breaking the law is never excused on the basis of "some of my best friends are ..." and "I've even hired some of the good ones ...". 

The first-level decisions (Colorado Civil Rights Division and Judge Robert N. Spencer of the Colorado Office of Administrative Courts):

Quote

Please carefully read the bit in red.   "Deny service" = "Refuse to serve" and "same sex" = "gay".

This presented a legal problem because of  a very important point:

Quote
Longstanding Colorado state law prohibits public accommodations, including businesses such as Masterpiece Cakeshop, from refusing service based on factors such as race, sex, marital status or sexual orientation

http://aclu-co.org/court-cases/masterpiece-cakeshop/

The bakers went on to launch a legal appeal.    In the "background" part of the appellate court's decision, you will find this:

Quote
In July 2012, Craig and Mullins visited Masterpiece, a bakery in Lakewood, Colorado, and requested that Phillips design and create a cake to celebrate their same-sex wedding. Phillips declined, telling them that he does not create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings because of his religious beliefs. 

Again, please careful note what the bakers refused to do, and note that the bakers cheerfully admitted this as one of the "material facts" they agreed was correct. 

That is a long, long way from your statement that:

Quote
she did not want to do was take part in a gay wedding. Something I myself would not do any more than I can willingly take part in a ceremony inducting my friend into prostitution or celebrating it or anything like that
https://www.courts.state.co.us/Courts/Court_of_Appeals/Opinion/2015/14CA1351-PD.pdf

And here's another thing:

There seems to be some misunderstanding about "public" vs. "private".    Anti-discrimination laws actually make a finer distinction.   If for example, Walmart refused to serve a black person on the basis of race, or IBM fired an Indian on the basis of race, they would have good grounds to sue.  And so on and so forth.   The idea that if it's not a government institution, then discrimination is just fine was buried (one hopes) ages ago.    In Colorado, the issue is one of public accommodations.   As the first decision put it:

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"Masterpiece remains free to continue espousing its religious beliefs, including its opposition to same-sex marriage.  However, if it wishes to operate as a public accommodation and conduct business within the State of Colorado, CADA prohibits it from picking and choosing customers based on their sexual orientation."
Nonsense. What you are doing is substituting your own understanding of what it means to take part in a sinful activity for the Christians involved and their religion.  There is no way that performing a service material to the celebration of a wedding cannot be viewed as taking part in that wedding from the point of view of the Christian. It's basically a statement that this is a good thing happening (celebration) just like baking a cake celebrating the anniversary of the founding of KKK would be offensive to any black baker or the celenration of a nazi group anniversary would be offensive to a Jewish baker (or any baker of a good conscience,  for that matter... I certainly wouldnt want to be involved with that,  Jewish or not). He would see his involvement as helping people celebrate what he sees as offensive. His problem is the event NOT the PEOPLE involved in the event. 

The old lady who was basically ruined after fined for 150 thousand dollars for not performing a service for a gay wedding HAD infact served that EXACT same couple suing her for TEN years!  The claim here is that refusal of service is because the people hear are GAY. That is nonsense and a lie when there's ample evidence that their being gay in no way impeded services being rendered to them by her before. It was a specific EVENT that is considered sinful in almost all religions but certainly her own, for which she considered that her own involvement would be problematic. What is a lie is comparing this to "my best friend is gay" as an excuse. Talk about straw-men!  Another classic obfuscation from you,  as usual!  The claim here is that the woman does not want to serve gay people in her BUSINESS.... FALSE! How do you figure that when SERVING GAY PEOPLE in her business both as customers and employees is exacyly what she has been doing and continues to do?

That is the lie here,  and the fact that you quote the judgment that refused to make the distinction between serving gay people in any ordinary event verses serving at events that EXPLICITLY celebrate the sexual union of two men and two women which the baker/photographer/caterers religion cobsiders gravely sinful,  does not itself make your argument. Tell me how you can "refuse" serving people "because they are gay" when you in fact serve people knowing them to be gay for years?  Conginitive dissonance.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline veritas

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2015, 09:13:47 AM »
Bella, we should have a cuppa some time.


Offline GeeMail

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2015, 12:52:00 PM »
MoonKi and the false prophet may defend this gross violation of the religious right of Mrs Kim Davis from a legal standpoint which even then is on shaky ground. However, it is morally indefensible to throw a christian in to jail for refusing to be party to a gay marriage. Just because the SCOTUS thinks its ok for two men to sleep with one another does not make it right. Again, asking Kim Davis to reign is unfair because it amounts to tyranny by the gay lobby and the judiciary. It's not different from the Weston example. Just because Jubilee is in power and the high priest can get all the legal documents does not make it right to grab a school playground.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2015, 12:55:22 PM »
Bella,

Her problem was not making the cake for a gay wedding as clarified by MOON Ki.  There are laws that protect minorities against discrimination that their bakery broke. 

I don't think they were needed to be present at that wedding as a casual reading of your claim might imply.  This is just another case of people using religion to limit the legitimate rights of others.

I understand your views on conscience, sin etc.  Obviously I think in these instances they are misplaced.  Some religious business person could decide not serve a certain wedding for a couple that promotes oral sex because of conscience and we are down the rabbit hole.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Clerk in Kentucky Chooses Jail Over Deal on Same-Sex Marriage
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2015, 01:30:11 PM »
Seems like the overarching theory is some things taught by churches before was bad like slavery, inferiority of the Negro, so Christians ought not to have their way just because they 'feel' so. Nuff Sed' sect of retards actively taught against interracial marriages until 1991 I doubt Adventism has ever had any biracial married minister at ANY level. Unless of course if they joined after marrying. It's only a matter of time before anti-Homosexuality stance is vilified and criminalized.

If sexual orientation is a right, preaching against it is bigotry. The next frontier will be targeting those against homosexuality for suits. Expressing the mere opinion will be criminal.

Larry King: Are you gay?
Joel Osteen:  no sir, am hetero and happily married for the last xxxx years
Larry King: is God indifferent to sexual orientation?
Joel Osteen: No sir, He is very particular on this matter. He only approves sexual union between adult male and female
Larry King: so.....so you saying God will NEVER bless a gay Union?
Joel Osteen: very true, Sodom from which we got the word sodomy was destroyed for the sin this very sin
Larry King: say what?
Joel Osteen: homosexuality is a sin and God is displeased with it


23 minutes later
CNN headlines
'Popular mega church minister slapped with a mega hate crimes suit'

Christians need to study how racists have thrived all these years
If I were a Christian, I would rely on Christ's greatest commandment.  I would use it to guide my conscience and leave the judgment to God.  These bigots' religion allows them to show their better side, yet they choose the hideous judgmental side.

SDA has an interesting history.  More interesting than I would have thought.  I wonder if Ben Carson felt he had no choice in that sense about the wife.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman