Author Topic: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified  (Read 24281 times)

Offline mya88

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2015, 08:23:53 PM »
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SAINT

Supreme Pontiff: Canonization

By the Rite of Canonization the Supreme Pontiff, by an act which is protected from error by the Holy Spirit, elevates a person to the universal veneration of the Church. By canonization the Pope does not make the person a saint. Rather, he declares that the person is with God and is an example of following Christ worthy of imitation by the faithful. A Mass, Divine Office and other acts of veneration, may now be offered throughout the universal Church.

If the saint has some universal appeal he may be added to the general calendar of the Church as a Memorial or Optional Memorial. If the appeal is localized to a region of the world, a particular nation, or a particular religious institute, the saint may be added to the particular calendars of those nations or institutes, or celebrated by the clergy and faithful with a devotion to the saint with a votive Mass or Office.

From the little I gathered about this canonization, it seems to me like just another catholic tradition. Many denominations follow some sort of traditions, so I am not even sure what the argument is all about. At the end of the day, whether the person is a saint or not, is between her and her God. Not sure about the intercession part, or even why the pope has to declare anything

And as to Daily bread, can you quote the scriptures to back up the stament you made up there instead of the White series?

Quote
When you pray to dead people to intercede for you, demons can take advantage and may even answer your prayers to entrench your worship of them in rebellion to God.

A quote from The Great Controversy:
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
"We must be the change we wish to see" - Mahatma Ghandi

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2015, 11:56:54 PM »
The whole idea of "intercession" is a peculiar one.  Why not just direct prayers?

Is the idea that some people are so bad that God will pay attention only if a better person (a.k.a saint)  hands over the prayer?    Or is it that God is so busy that prayers need to be "streamlined" by reliable gate-keepers, in the manner of old-fashioned "batch data processing"?    Or does the better person act like a probation officer at the sentencing of a petty criminal: "yes, his is not a brilliant record; but, on the other hand, he's done this and that good thing; all things considered, room for redemption ..."? Or maybe saints, unlike many today, speak Latin, the "preferred" language?
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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2015, 12:44:29 AM »
The whole idea of "intercession" is a peculiar one.  Why not just direct prayers?

Is the idea that some people are so bad that God will pay attention only if a better person (a.k.a saint)  hands over the prayer?    Or is it that God is so busy that prayers need to be "streamlined" by reliable gate-keepers, in the manner of old-fashioned "batch data processing"?    Or does the better person act like a probation officer at the sentencing of a petty criminal: "yes, his is not a brilliant record; but, on the other hand, he's done this and that good thing; all things considered, room for redemption ..."? Or maybe saints, unlike many today, speak Latin, the "preferred" language?
Hehehe...

If I may answer from previous personal experience.  An intercession is exactly that type of thing you mention.  Someone putting in a nice word on your behalf.

I think technology has borrowed quite a bit from this relationship.  Intercession promotes looser coupling between God and adherent.  If God is busy processing a resource intensive prayer, the saint can hang onto your prayer until God comes online.  In this scenario the adherent can fire and forget a prayer secure in the knowledge of guaranteed delivery and acknowledment.  Prayers sent this way do not get lost in the event of downtime or a blackout.

When vooke prays, he requires an open and direct connection to God.  This approach scales poorly.  Since resources are scarce, some of his prayers go unacknowledged, let alone unanswered.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline Bella

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2015, 09:53:51 AM »
The whole idea of "intercession" is a peculiar one.  Why not just direct prayers?

Is the idea that some people are so bad that God will pay attention only if a better person (a.k.a saint)  hands over the prayer?    Or is it that God is so busy that prayers need to be "streamlined" by reliable gate-keepers, in the manner of old-fashioned "batch data processing"?    Or does the better person act like a probation officer at the sentencing of a petty criminal: "yes, his is not a brilliant record; but, on the other hand, he's done this and that good thing; all things considered, room for redemption ..."? Or maybe saints, unlike many today, speak Latin, the "preferred" language?
Well, let me explain: We believe in something called the communion of saints. If the small toe is hurting, the whole body can partake in the suffering. In other words, the oneness of the body of believers (church) with each other and with Christ is believed to be absolutely real by Catholics and Orthodox and Assyrians. We don't believe that once a Christian dies, he is kicked out of Christ's body by death. If anything, their position in the body is far more secured than we on earth who can still decide tomorrow to opt out of that body. That is all there is to the belief in saints, really. Nothing too grand about it.The saints pray for us the same way we pray for each other here on earth, our problems are each others. It really is that simple. We don't pray for them (those in heaven) because they are already in heaven and are not exactly lacking in anything. But we do pray for those dead who we believe are still going through some suffering in purgatory, and we believe they suffering also pray for us.

So the big difference between us (including orthodox and all apostolic/historic churches) and protestants is not really about the value or the point or the purpose of intercession; Christians know they always have to pray for each other and help each other carry the crosses of life. No, the real difference, is that we believe that Christians who die as Christians are not just very much alive but an integral part of the body of Christ and thus are still VERY MUCH connected to all Christians who are also part of that same body, we believe that death has no power whatsoever over this union, while protestants do not believe that once Christians have died they are still connected to Christians who are living on earth. That really is the big difference.

The issue about God not having time/being busy makes very little sense to me, in fact I'm convinced the notion could only come from a non-believer. We do not and have never believed for even one moment that God is anything but absolutely and fully present to everything that exists at all times. In fact, we believe that if God were ever too busy even for the tiniest moment to be fully aware of any single thing, that thing would simply vanish from existence since it is only by God knowing it and deliberately willing it, that anything exists at all or continues to exist at any moment. So, absolutely not, it has nothing to do with God allegedly having little time, what a strange notion. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, nothing escapes his attention, not even the flap of the wings of a fly. It is impossible that anyone can say anything and God not be anything but FULLY aware of it, much less that anyone can say anything to God himself and he be unaware of it. Like I said, ideas like this come from unbelievers in my view, for I cannot imagine a Christian or even a Jew or a Muslim who entertains the notion that God is pressed for time or power to do anything at all.

The issue about people being too bad to pray is another one that makes little sense. Asking for intercession does not prevent one from talking to God himself. In fact, no one would ask for intercession if they were not talking to God themselves. I have NEVER asked for intercession--whether from my friends at the parish on Sunday or the priest or even from the saints in heaven--for something of which I wasn't asking God myself directly. I don't know anybody who does that, actually. Every time someone says, pray for me over this or that issue, it is because they are already themselves praying over the same issue. I think some of these suggestions come from people who just don't practice prayer themselves and are speaking about an alien, coz if you pray, you know the way some things happen as a matter of course.

Protestants are afraid that speaking to saints in heaven somehow interferes with the place of Christ in their lives, and this is a concern we fully appreciate and understand, its actually the main bone of contention they have with this practice. But we look at it as exactly the same way as when speaking to God for each other here on earth. It never interferes with our beliefs in God or the place he occupies, and just because these people happen to have passed, their souls separated from their bodies, doesn't change who they are in the church, in our view. :D We believe we are joined to Christ and participate in his mission, co-priests and intercessors, with others, not because we ourselves do anything of our own power but because we are literally joined to Christ and participate in his divine sonship by the gift of grace. In fact, this participation, power to be sons of God in Christ, is what we Catholics call grace or sanctifying grace. The saints suffered with and in Christ on earth, and they are now reigning in Christ at the right hand of the father, as we all shall, God willing, at the end of time. :)
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2015, 11:05:42 AM »
The whole idea of "intercession" is a peculiar one.  Why not just direct prayers?

Is the idea that some people are so bad that God will pay attention only if a better person (a.k.a saint)  hands over the prayer?    Or is it that God is so busy that prayers need to be "streamlined" by reliable gate-keepers, in the manner of old-fashioned "batch data processing"?    Or does the better person act like a probation officer at the sentencing of a petty criminal: "yes, his is not a brilliant record; but, on the other hand, he's done this and that good thing; all things considered, room for redemption ..."? Or maybe saints, unlike many today, speak Latin, the "preferred" language?
Well, let me explain: We believe in something called the communion of saints. If the small toe is hurting, the whole body can partake in the suffering. In other words, the oneness of the body of believers (church) with each other and with Christ is believed to be absolutely real by Catholics and Orthodox and Assyrians. We don't believe that once a Christian dies, he is kicked out of Christ's body by death. If anything, their position in the body is far more secured than we on earth who can still decide tomorrow to opt out of that body. That is all there is to the belief in saints, really. Nothing too grand about it.The saints pray for us the same way we pray for each other here on earth, our problems are each others. It really is that simple. We don't pray for them (those in heaven) because they are already in heaven and are not exactly lacking in anything. But we do pray for those dead who we believe are still going through some suffering in purgatory, and we believe they suffering also pray for us.

So the big difference between us (including orthodox and all apostolic/historic churches) and protestants is not really about the value or the point or the purpose of intercession; Christians know they always have to pray for each other and help each other carry the crosses of life. No, the real difference, is that we believe that Christians who die as Christians are not just very much alive but an integral part of the body of Christ and thus are still VERY MUCH connected to all Christians who are also part of that same body, we believe that death has no power whatsoever over this union, while protestants do not believe that once Christians have died they are still connected to Christians who are living on earth. That really is the big difference.

The issue about God not having time/being busy makes very little sense to me, in fact I'm convinced the notion could only come from a non-believer. We do not and have never believed for even one moment that God is anything but absolutely and fully present to everything that exists at all times. In fact, we believe that if God were ever too busy even for the tiniest moment to be fully aware of any single thing, that thing would simply vanish from existence since it is only by God knowing it and deliberately willing it, that anything exists at all or continues to exist at any moment. So, absolutely not, it has nothing to do with God allegedly having little time, what a strange notion. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, nothing escapes his attention, not even the flap of the wings of a fly. It is impossible that anyone can say anything and God not be anything but FULLY aware of it, much less that anyone can say anything to God himself and he be unaware of it. Like I said, ideas like this come from unbelievers in my view, for I cannot imagine a Christian or even a Jew or a Muslim who entertains the notion that God is pressed for time or power to do anything at all.

The issue about people being too bad to pray is another one that makes little sense. Asking for intercession does not prevent one from talking to God himself. In fact, no one would ask for intercession if they were not talking to God themselves. I have NEVER asked for intercession--whether from my friends at the parish on Sunday or the priest or even from the saints in heaven--for something of which I wasn't asking God myself directly. I don't know anybody who does that, actually. Every time someone says, pray for me over this or that issue, it is because they are already themselves praying over the same issue. I think some of these suggestions come from people who just don't practice prayer themselves and are speaking about an alien, coz if you pray, you know the way some things happen as a matter of course.

Protestants are afraid that speaking to saints in heaven somehow interferes with the place of Christ in their lives, and this is a concern we fully appreciate and understand, its actually the main bone of contention they have with this practice. But we look at it as exactly the same way as when speaking to God for each other here on earth. It never interferes with our beliefs in God or the place he occupies, and just because these people happen to have passed, their souls separated from their bodies, doesn't change who they are in the church, in our view. :D We believe we are joined to Christ and participate in his mission, co-priests and intercessors, with others, not because we ourselves do anything of our own power but because we are literally joined to Christ and participate in his divine sonship by the gift of grace. In fact, this participation, power to be sons of God in Christ, is what we Catholics call grace or sanctifying grace. The saints suffered with and in Christ on earth, and they are now reigning in Christ at the right hand of the father, as we all shall, God willing, at the end of time. :)
While you may eloquently speak for Catholicism, you greatly err when you attempt to do the same for Protestanism.

Talking to the dead is necromancy expressly forbidden in the OT. Whether they talk back is splitting hairs. Necromancy is not EXPECTING the dead to reply nor the dead replying, it is ALL attempts to contact the dead. There really is no difference between camping at a grave talking to your relation for closure and addressing those you believe are in heaven

Praying to the dead is an invention, late aberration of the Christian Faith and that's why reformers were so quick to dump it. So it is the fear of God that makes me steer clear of necromancy and not fear of spirits
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2015, 11:38:03 AM »
While you may eloquently speak for Catholicism, you greatly err when you attempt to do the same for Protestanism.

Talking to the dead is necromancy expressly forbidden in the OT. Whether they talk back is splitting hairs. Necromancy is not EXPECTING the dead to reply nor the dead replying, it is ALL attempts to contact the dead. There really is no difference between camping at a grave talking to your relation for closure and addressing those you believe are in heaven

Praying to the dead is an invention, late aberration of the Christian Faith and that's why reformers were so quick to dump it. So it is the fear of God that makes me steer clear of necromancy and not fear of spirits
vooke, with respect, you are one among 700 million protestants who are as divided on just about any issue you can imagine. You have no more right to claim you speak for "Protestantism" than the next person I meet on the street. As for me, this is an issue I have debated/spoken about/ read debates on between protestants-Catholicism a gazillion times. They ALWAYS go back to "Christ is the sole-mediator" etc etc, believing catholics have added to Christ, (has happened twice already in this very thread, actually!) so I'm sorry but you don't get to tell me nothing about what protestants believe on this issue. I know about it just as well, if not better, than you--seeing as you haven't spent a quarter of the time I have been involved in these exchanges as have many many catholics spend about every other day of the week with protestants!

The issue about necromancy being equivalent with asking intercession is frankly, your own, nowhere in the Bible. That person speaking to relatives is not engaged in necromancy. The person summoning a spirit is engaged in necromancy. Necromancy is not vague or ambiguous, its meaning is well-established. So as soon as you find intercession denounced in the Bible, speak to me about it, I'm all ears. In the mean time, what you are doing is asking me to take your word for it and I'm sorry but I simply don't take your private word as being equivalent to a command of God, that's no insult, but plain-speak.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2015, 11:47:27 AM »
While you may eloquently speak for Catholicism, you greatly err when you attempt to do the same for Protestanism.

Talking to the dead is necromancy expressly forbidden in the OT. Whether they talk back is splitting hairs. Necromancy is not EXPECTING the dead to reply nor the dead replying, it is ALL attempts to contact the dead. There really is no difference between camping at a grave talking to your relation for closure and addressing those you believe are in heaven

Praying to the dead is an invention, late aberration of the Christian Faith and that's why reformers were so quick to dump it. So it is the fear of God that makes me steer clear of necromancy and not fear of spirits
vooke, with respect, you are one among 700 million protestants who are as divided on just about any issue you can imagine. You have no more right to claim you speak for "Protestantism" than the next person I meet on the street. As for me, this is an issue I have debated/spoken about/ read debates on between protestants-Catholicism a gazillion times. They ALWAYS go back to "Christ is the sole-mediator" etc etc, believing catholics have added to Christ, (has happened twice already in this very thread, actually!) so I'm sorry but you don't get to tell me nothing about what protestants believe on this issue. I know about it just as well, if not better, than you--seeing as you haven't spent a quarter of the time I have been involved in these exchanges as have many many catholics spend about every other day of the week with protestants!

The issue about necromancy being equivalent with asking intercession is frankly, your own, nowhere in the Bible. That person speaking to relatives is not engaged in necromancy. The person summoning a spirit is engaged in necromancy. Necromancy is not vague or ambiguous, its meaning is well-established. So as soon as you find intercession denounced in the Bible, speak to me about it, I'm all ears. In the mean time, what you are doing is asking me to take your word for it and I'm sorry but I simply don't take your private word as being equivalent to a command of God, that's no insult, but plain-speak.
You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2015, 11:52:01 AM »
You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)

The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #28 on: May 28, 2015, 11:53:09 AM »
Bella thanks for your continued interest in this thread. Moonki's suggestion that intercession is about Christians putting to God a good word on behalf of others is worthy of comment. First, God does not play favorites (all believers are equal in His sight as far as prayer is concerned -Acts 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him; Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers).

It is possible that Moonki's observation arises from the practice of briefcase preachers and fake pastors who claim they can pray for somebody and get results, as if they own prayer stores in heaven and that the person in need cannot pray for themselves. Intercession is a recognition by other believers that a fellow believer needs God's intervention and by praying for them, we acknowledge dependence on God. When God answers intercessory prayer, no believer will then take credit (we prayed for you, so yo got an answer) but glory returns to God. The result is that faith in God by all believers, including those whose intercessory prayers were answered, is deepened.

Bella's response creates serious theological problems. First, it suggests that the dead are not really dead (so why are they dead then, like the Bible says in Genesis 3?)

Quote
Gen 3:
1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.)?
The Bible is clear that communication with the dead is forbidden, a detestable abomination (Deut 18:10-12). God cannot forbid communication with the dead and say sin causes death on one hand and send them to believers at the same time. Catholic practices like canonization are attempts to entrench the unbiblical doctrines of Marian worship, purgatory, indulgences and so on. Mary, just like other believers, is dead and cannot communicate anything to anybody.

Ellen G. White gives very insightful views on the state of the dead and why it is a particularly dangerous thing to engage in communication with the dead. For the sake of the anti-EGW crusaders, she amply quotes Bible verses in the passage. She says just what the Bible says.

See: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html

Quote
Furthermore, God has expressly forbidden all pretended communication with departed spirits. In the days of the Hebrews there was a class of people who claimed, as do the spiritualists of today, to hold communication with the dead. But the "familiar spirits," as these visitants from other worlds were called, are declared by the Bible to be "the spirits of devils." (Compare Numbers 25:1-3; Psalm 106:28; I Corinthians 10:20; Revelation 16:14.) The work of dealing with familiar spirits was pronounced an abomination to the Lord, and was solemnly forbidden under penalty of death. Leviticus 19:31; 20:27. The very name of witchcraft is now held in contempt. The claim that men can hold intercourse with evil spirits is regarded as a fable of the Dark Ages. But spiritualism, which numbers its converts by hundreds of thousands, yea, by millions, which has made its way into scientific circles, which has invaded churches, and has found favor in legislative bodies, and even in the courts of kings-- this mammoth deception is but a revival, in a new disguise, of the witchcraft condemned and prohibited of old.

Quote
Marvelous beyond expression is the blindness of the people of this generation. Thousands reject the word of God as unworthy of belief and with eager confidence receive the deceptions of Satan. Skeptics and scoffers denounce the bigotry of those who contend for the faith of prophets and apostles, and they divert themselves by holding up to ridicule the solemn declarations of the Scriptures concerning Christ and the plan of salvation, and the retribution to be visited upon the rejecters of the truth. They affect great pity for minds so narrow, weak, and superstitious as to acknowledge the claims of God and obey the requirements of His law. They manifest as much assurance as if, indeed, they had made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell-- as if they had erected an impassable, impenetrable barrier between themselves and the vengeance of God. Nothing can arouse their fears. So fully have they yielded to the tempter, so closely are they united with him, and so thoroughly imbued with his spirit, that they have no power and no inclination to break away from his snare.

Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world. The foundation of his work was laid by the assurance given to Eve in Eden: "Ye shall not surely die." "In the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4, 5. Little by little he has prepared the way for his masterpiece of deception in the development of spiritualism. He has not yet reached the full accomplishment of his designs; but it will be reached in the last remnant of time. Says the prophet: "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs; . . . they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth

562

unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:13, 14. Except those who are kept by the power of God, through faith in His word, the whole world will be swept into the ranks of this delusion. The people are fast being lulled to a fatal security, to be awakened only by the outpouring of the wrath of God.

If people die and automatically go to heaven as canonization attempts to do, everybody including Hitler are there (Nazis most probably canonized him and hail the Fuhrer as their patron saint). Worse, what is the plan of salvation about if people automatically go to heaven when they die? Why should God have let His precious Son to die then?
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline Bella

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #29 on: May 28, 2015, 11:59:42 AM »
Bella thanks for your continued interest in this thread. Moonki's suggestion that intercession is about Christians putting to God a good word on behalf of others is worthy of comment. First, God does not play favorites (all believers are equal in His sight as far as prayer is concerned -Acts 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him; Romans 1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers).

It is possible that Moonki's observation arises from the practice of briefcase preachers and fake pastors who claim they can pray for somebody and get results, as if they own prayer stores in heaven and that the person in need cannot pray for themselves. Intercession is a recognition by other believers that a fellow believer needs God's intervention and by praying for them, we acknowledge dependence on God. When God answers intercessory prayer, no believer will then take credit (we prayed for you, so yo got an answer) but glory returns to God. The result is that faith in God by all believers, including those whose intercessory prayers were answered, is deepened.

Bella's response creates serious theological problems. First, it suggests that the dead are not really dead (so why are they dead then, like the Bible says in Genesis 3:4-5 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.)?

The Bible is clear that communication with the dead is forbidden, a detestable abomination (Deut 18:10-12). God cannot forbid communication with the dead on one hand and send them to believers at the same time. Catholic practices like canonization are attempts to entrench the unbiblical doctrines of Marian worship, purgatory, indulgences and so on. Mary, just like other believers, is dead and cannot communicate anything to anybody.

Ellen G. White gives very insightful views on the state of the dead and why it is a particularly dangerous thing to engage in communication with the dead. For the sake of the anti-EGW crusaders, she amply quotes Bible verses in the passage. She says just what the Bible says.

See: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html

Quote
Marvelous beyond expression is the blindness of the people of this generation. Thousands reject the word of God as unworthy of belief and with eager confidence receive the deceptions of Satan. Skeptics and scoffers denounce the bigotry of those who contend for the faith of prophets and apostles, and they divert themselves by holding up to ridicule the solemn declarations of the Scriptures concerning Christ and the plan of salvation, and the retribution to be visited upon the rejecters of the truth. They affect great pity for minds so narrow, weak, and superstitious as to acknowledge the claims of God and obey the requirements of His law. They manifest as much assurance as if, indeed, they had made a covenant with death and an agreement with hell-- as if they had erected an impassable, impenetrable barrier between themselves and the vengeance of God. Nothing can arouse their fears. So fully have they yielded to the tempter, so closely are they united with him, and so thoroughly imbued with his spirit, that they have no power and no inclination to break away from his snare.

Satan has long been preparing for his final effort to deceive the world. The foundation of his work was laid by the assurance given to Eve in Eden: "Ye shall not surely die." "In the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." Genesis 3:4, 5. Little by little he has prepared the way for his masterpiece of deception in the development of spiritualism. He has not yet reached the full accomplishment of his designs; but it will be reached in the last remnant of time. Says the prophet: "I saw three unclean spirits like frogs; . . . they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth

562

unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty." Revelation 16:13, 14. Except those who are kept by the power of God, through faith in His word, the whole world will be swept into the ranks of this delusion. The people are fast being lulled to a fatal security, to be awakened only by the outpouring of the wrath of God.

If people die and automatically go to heaven as canonization attempts to do, everybody including Hitler are there (Nazis most probably canonized him and hail the Fuhrer as their patron saint). Worse, what is the plan of salvation about if people automatically go to heaven when they die? Why should God have let His precious Son to die then?
Daily Bread, your objections are based on the belief that Christians do not go to heaven upon death but cease to exist until the resurrection. Thus, there is no one to hear our requests for intercessions or even to intercede except those on earth. I don't believe Christians are dead. They, like angels, see all that goes on, on earth, and are able to pray to God about it. I agree with you that intercession per se, does not mean God is limited in any way.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2015, 12:05:41 PM »
You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)

The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
They may be alive no doubt but prayer is BY the living and FOR the Living. Has been like this from Genesis to Revelation. And there has been saints from Genesis to Revelation. You should start by sharing examples for anything else.

Deuteronomy  18:10-12 (KJV)
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2015, 12:07:47 PM »
You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)

The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
They may be alive no doubt but prayer is BY the living and FOR the Living. Has been like this from Genesis to Revelation. And there has been saints from Genesis to Revelation. You should start by sharing examples for anything else.
Why should I quote anything? You are the one claiming a COMMAND, not me. Please show me the command I am violating, per your claim.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline vooke

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2015, 12:14:15 PM »
You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)

The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
They may be alive no doubt but prayer is BY the living and FOR the Living. Has been like this from Genesis to Revelation. And there has been saints from Genesis to Revelation. You should start by sharing examples for anything else.
Why should I quote anything? You are the one claiming a COMMAND, not me. Please show me the command I am violating, per your claim.
Sorry I added the verse after you responded.
Look at that verse closely. Why shouldn't you contact those with familiar spirits. Is it because they stink or is it not because of what they do, which is communicating with the dead?

Again there is no record nor instruction of praying to the dead saints and we have a good record of prayers from Genesis to Revelation. That's over 4,000 years of God's relationship with man and no hint of praying to dead spirits to pray for you.

Praying to dead men and women is an invention, it is spiritism
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2015, 12:21:23 PM »
Mya wanted Bible verses connecting necromancy with devils. Satan has counterfeited all of God's blessings to man, including a fake Sabbath (Sunday worship); a fake marriage (homosexuality and lesbianism), fake answers to prayer (necromancy, prayers to dead saints). He also has a fake return to paradise (secret rapture). Even false Christs shall arise in the last days (Matt 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.).

Apart from Satan's answer to Pharaoh's magicians, see below.

Exodus 7
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

Numbers 25 King James Version (KJV)
1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.
4 And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.
5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

Ps 106
28 They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead.
29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.

I Cor 10
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline Bella

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2015, 12:31:08 PM »
Sorry I added the verse after you responded.
Look at that verse closely.
I have: Here goes: Deuteronomy  18:10-12 (KJV)
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


Nothing there about intercession, plenty about consulting spirits.
Quote
Why shouldn't you contact those with familiar spirits. Is it because they stink or is it not because of what they do, which is communicating with the dead?
False. They don't just "communicate with the dead". They CONSULT the dead, for information about the future and other inaccessible (to humans) information to use in controlloing the course of life on earth. Which psychic have you EVER heard asking for intercession? Especially intercession with God? Never. They contact spirits to gain access to power and knowledge they otherwise cannot get. It is precisely for this reason that people pay them/go to them, not to ask for prayers to God. This is why God forbids all this, and this is what divination is, not simply "so-and-so, please pray for me to God".

Quote
Again there is no record of praying to the dead saints and we have a good record of prayers from Genesis to Revelation. That's over 4,000 years of God's relationship with man and no hint of praying to dead spirits to pray for you.
Those who lived before Christ never went to heaven, anyway, but that is a by-the-way. I'm not sure your claims about there being no evidence of intercession among Jews and Christians in 4,000 years is true, since you start by limiting what counts as "evidence". Jews had an oral Torah along with the pentateuch, they have never been sola-scripturaists, you see. See what this wiki says, for example,:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints#Judaism
Quote

Interesting they dont think intercession violates the command about necromancy/divination in deuteromony, they are only concerned about placing mediators between God and men, (and they think this pertains to intercessors on earth too, not just those in heaven!) which is what almost all protestants I have ever spoken to on this are also concerned about, unlike the claim you made.

Quote
Praying to dead men and women is an invention, it is spiritism
This is just false. Arbitrarily asserted, arbitrarily denied. 8)
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2015, 12:36:18 PM »
You are forbidden from contacting the dead for whatever reasons. If you have been given the wrong reasons for not contacting the dead in the gazillion debates, that don't nullify this fact; leave the dead alone. That's scripture. It has no scriptural precedence anyway; the innumerable instances of intercession we have from Genesis to Revelation is BY the living and FOR the living
Quote the Bible please, Bella is all eyes. :)

The saints in heaven are more ALIVE than you, unless you believe in soul sleep.
They may be alive no doubt but prayer is BY the living and FOR the Living. Has been like this from Genesis to Revelation. And there has been saints from Genesis to Revelation. You should start by sharing examples for anything else.
Why should I quote anything? You are the one claiming a COMMAND, not me. Please show me the command I am violating, per your claim.

Bella here lies the problem. That the Bible does not forbid anything does not make it legit (biblical).

http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=289

Quote
The very beginning of the great apostasy was in seeking to supplement the authority of God by that of the church. Rome began by enjoining what God had not forbidden, and she ended by forbidding what He had explicitly enjoined.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244

Offline vooke

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #36 on: May 28, 2015, 12:40:22 PM »
Sorry I added the verse after you responded.
Look at that verse closely.
I have: Here goes: Deuteronomy  18:10-12 (KJV)
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, 11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer. 12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.


Nothing there about intercession, plenty about consulting spirits.
Quote
Why shouldn't you contact those with familiar spirits. Is it because they stink or is it not because of what they do, which is communicating with the dead?
False. They don't just "communicate with the dead". They CONSULT the dead, for information about the future and other inaccessible (to humans) information to use in controlloing the course of life on earth. Which psychic have you EVER heard asking for intercession? Especially intercession with God? Never. They contact spirits to gain access to power and knowledge they otherwise cannot get. It is precisely for this reason that people pay them/go to them, not to ask for prayers to God. This is why God forbids all this, and this is what divination is, not simply "so-and-so, please pray for me to God".

Quote
Again there is no record of praying to the dead saints and we have a good record of prayers from Genesis to Revelation. That's over 4,000 years of God's relationship with man and no hint of praying to dead spirits to pray for you.
Those who lived before Christ never went to heaven, anyway, but that is a by-the-way. I'm not sure your claims about there being no evidence of intercession among Jews and Christians in 4,000 years is true, since you start by limiting what counts as "evidence". Jews had an oral Torah along with the pentateuch, they have never been sola-scripturaists, you see. See what this wiki says, for example,:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_saints#Judaism
Quote

Interesting they dont think intercession violates the command about necromancy/divination in deuteromony, they are concerned about placing mediators between God and men, which is what almost all protestants I have ever spoken to on this are also concerned about, unlike the claim you made.

Quote
Praying to dead men and women is an invention, it is spiritism
This is just false. Arbitrarily asserted, arbitrarily denied. 8)
It's no surprise all the quotations you can come up with are from the intertesamental period, after Malachi and before Matthew. Apocrypha, summarily dismissed by Jesus himself.

Those 'oral' traditions EVOLVED from Babylon that's why there is zero trace of them before captivity

And Jesus had some nasty words for 'traditions' of Jews
Matthew 15:2-3 (KJV)
Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?


'Traditions' are not necessarily right just because they are old. While God did everything to prevent Israel from contacting the dead, their neighbors did just that. Praying to dead people predate Christianity by thousands of years. I find it decidedly curious that even NT is totally silent on that, only for it to be suddenly 'discovered' hundreds of years after Pentecost
2 Timothy 2:4  No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

Offline Bella

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #37 on: May 28, 2015, 12:43:00 PM »

Bella here lies the problem. That the Bible does not forbid anything does not make it legit (biblical).

http://text.egwwritings.org/publication.php?pubtype=Book&bookCode=GC&lang=en&pagenumber=289

Quote
The very beginning of the great apostasy was in seeking to supplement the authority of God by that of the church. Rome began by enjoining what God had not forbidden, and she ended by forbidding what He had explicitly enjoined.
It is you doing the supplementing (and self-contradiction on top) if you insist something is commanded by God and then can't cite it in the Bible, all the while claiming the Bible is your sole authority. If it is, then you have no basis in forbidding anything not forbidden there, otherwise you are using yourself as the secondary authority others should listen to. We catholics obey both the Bible and the church tradition, we have never pretended to be sola-scripturaists, another doctrine nowhere found in the Bible itself and thus self-refuting. 8)
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline Bella

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #38 on: May 28, 2015, 12:47:03 PM »

It's no surprise all the quotations you can come up with are from the intertesamental period, after Malachi and before Matthew.
So you admit your "4,000" year claim was bunk.
Quote
Apocrypha, summarily dismissed by Jesus himself.
Chapter and verse, please. I would like to see Jesus "summarily" dismissing the books of the Septuagint read all over Palestinian synanogues in Jesus' day. I must have missed that verse in over 10 years of reading the Gospels.
Quote
Those 'oral' traditions EVOLVED from Babylon that's why there is zero trace of them before captivity
Another arbitrary claim, arbitrarily denied.
Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat; Christus ab omni malo plebem suam defendat
Christ is the victor, Christ is King, Christ is the ruler, May Christ defend His people from all evil

Offline GeeMail

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Re: Sister Nyaatha To Be Beatified
« Reply #39 on: May 28, 2015, 12:47:53 PM »
Bella, I've cited four Bible passages (and there are more). I'll repeat myself for emphasis.

Exodus 7
10 And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the Lord had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

Numbers 25 King James Version (KJV)
1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel.
4 And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.
5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12King James Version (KJV)

10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch.
11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Lev 19
26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.
29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a whore; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the Lord.
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Lev 20
4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:
5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.
6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.

.....
26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Ps 106
28 They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead.
29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.

I Cor 10
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

Now quote one Bible verse showing dead saints are in heaven and living believers should ask them to pray for them.
Celebratory violence: 2017 crime invented to justify killings to prevent Raila from becoming PORK. http://www.nipate.com/download/file.php?id=4244