Author Topic: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo  (Read 36161 times)

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2015, 11:52:07 PM »
Sounds like bla de bla.
i am still amazed that China can entrust us with 5B dollars in one deal.

You are talking NONSENSE...The west was ready to give a small country like Rwanda $3.2BN during their Eurobond,They were also ready to give $8BN to Kenya during our Eurobond to invest in energy or whatever in just one deal,

Lets just look at the private sector the major shareholders are the west,Infact a western corporation called Boeing trusted Kenya airways with 9 Boeing 787 jets worth about $3BN Vs China $3.5BN rail loan,

Infact who will pay for the Chinese loan?Its the majority west owned corporations in Kenya like KQ EABL Equity Bank...remittances,exports and tourists from the west,

There is nothing special about China,Anyway,can you feed those starving muranga residents with rail?

Without Prejudice.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2015, 11:54:12 PM »
Let the western aid agencies lend us at the same terms..and we will sign along the dotted lines. What is 7%..USAID financed micro-financed lenders normally charge 25%. You're just out of depth. The most competitive banks lend at 15%. Interbank rate has been low at 8%...that is base rate.

Stop smoking too much marijuana.

China are taking a huge risk..

Sorry, I think I missed something somewhere.  Remind me again: the 6.9% of loan for insurance is for what?

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That single china project is set to increase our GDP by 2%

Having seen all sorts of economic predictions, all I can say is that you should wake me up when that happens.   In the meantime, Vision 2030---of which it is supposedly a key element---confirms that it is might be a good idea.  Take a look under "Benefits" here:

http://www.vision2030.go.ke/index.php/projects/details/Macro_enablers/197


Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2015, 03:15:25 AM »
Let the western aid agencies lend us at the same terms..and we will sign along the dotted lines. What is 7%..USAID financed micro-financed lenders normally charge 25%. You're just out of depth. The most competitive banks lend at 15%. Interbank rate has been low at 8%...that is base rate.
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I don't know who  these alleged "USAID financed micro-financed lenders" are.   But I do know that almost all USAID money to Kenya is in the form of free--and-clear grants.   In plain language that's 0%.  Totally free money.  No interest on loans.  No insurance for the loans. Dot, dot ,dot. 

I have a very good friend who works for USAID. He thinks you are an amusing fellow, even if a bit dim.  Bit he stands ready to respond to any numbers.    So if you have other stories, weka link na namba hapa hapa, and there will be responses pronto.

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Stop smoking too much marijuana.

I don't know what your pint is, but FYI: I have not smoked marijuana in 10+ years now.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2015, 03:34:45 AM »
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More hair splitting. 

Feel free to call it that.  But, please, indulge me and "split hairs" by answering questions like:

"China will, China will, China.  When will they? 

Kenyans still routinely beg for food.  Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems? 

Where are all those factories in Kenya?  Last I heard, your were bragging about the  trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.

Kenyan children are dying like flies from illnesses caused by nothing more than the lack of clean drinking water.   Where in Kenya are those Chinese "massive water supply systems"?


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Perhaps we can flip this. Tell us one AID project by any western partners you're really proud of. I can barely count five in my one hand despite 50yrs of assistance to Africa.

You really need to give up on this West-vs-East nonsense.  Try to imagine Africans doing for Africans.  But I will indulge you ....

First: I am not proud of any kind of aid, from the West or elsewhere.   I find it a painful and shameful embarrassment that we endlessly keep begging for something as basic as food, that our children keep dying like flies from the lack of something as simple as clean drinking water ...   ... and all the time people keep yelling about sovereign and independent.   50 years, and it's still going on.   

I think we should do for ourselves.   As I said, before you tell me how we will have a railway for 100 years, tell me how we will feed ourselves for 100 years.

Second: I have already tried to point this out ... it is not for the West or East to take responsibility for Africa.  So it is infantile to demand explanations for why their assistance has not worked; instead, one should carefully look at those getting assistance. 

Saidia, saidia, saidia,  ... and if we continue to mess up, it is your fault and we'll turn East!  Sigh. Some rethinking is necessary here.

Third: Having said that, there are some things I am grateful for, given that African "leaders" are devoted to everything except the welfare of their citizens, and some of those citizens are unable to free themselves from the saidia-saidia mentality.

Since this is a Kenyan forum, I will give you 4 examples, on different scales:

(1) Food aid: I hate to think of the numbers that would be dead by now if it had not been for a positive response to the perpetual saidia-saidia-saidia, always accompanied by gut-wrenching photos of filthy, skeletal people surrounded with flies.

That this food aid is never---and will never be---a permanent solution is not a reflection on those who provide it. It says more about those who chose to focus on other things.  And, for sure nobody ever lived by eating steel from a railway line or a brick from a stadium wall.

(2) HIV/AIDS: Kenya's future development will depend on its ability to, at the very least keep alive a substantial chunk of its most productive populace, and a fair bit of that is infected. 

Kenyans should be very grateful that the USA is doing so much, by way of paying for ARVs (and other interventions) for so many.  True, it's not a stadium or a railway; but to my mind it is far better to be alive without those than to be six feet under the Chinese SGR.

(3) Education: Kenyans have been very excited about free primary-school education.   That's actually largely funded by the Nasty West.   Still, this being Kenya, some things seem inevitable:

(4) Malaria:  I took note of your derision of USAID mosquito-nets.  I grew up in a malaria-endemic part of Kenya, and I know what it can do to people even if it does not kill them. So I am grateful that while the GoK has been doing bugger-all, USAID has done a great deal in that area.  That's more Kenyans who will still be alive to ride on the Chinese SGR.

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Now you have this wierd notion of what development really is. For you development is what handing a beggar food..not taking the beggar out of the street. I am not sure what development philosophy this belongs to..it look to me like emergency band aid...that US and EU have been conducting in Africa for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not have any such notion.  My notion is that Africans need to start by focusing on such basic things as being able to feed themsleves. The beggar should stop waiting to be taken "out of the street" and instead walk out on his own two feet.

I will not repeat what is above---that the "emergency band aid" has saved countless lives.  If the USA and the EU have been involved in non-working "emergency band aid" for 50 years, the most pressing questions have to be these:

(a) Why is Africa perpetually in need of "emergency band aid", after 50 years of its "leaders" shouting about sovereign-and-independent.

(b) What exactly are Africans doing for themselves to ensure that they will not need "emergency band aid" in the future.

Please stop telling me how the USA and the EU have failed, especially when they keep getting told to fuck off with neo-colonial imperialism, because Africa is now sovereign-and-independent.      I would rather hear about

(a) what Africans have been doing to succeed; and

(b) what Africans plan to do for the future, beyond the never-ending "the situtaion is desperate now; the international community needs to do something".

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Development. Sustainable Development. Human development. Just look at what Chinese are doing. That railway line will reduce travel cost and time.. and multiplier effect on everything including

I was tempted to ask for details about this "multiplier effect", but you have a funny way with numbers, and i don't think we'll get far on cooked-up figures.

Sustainable development?   Human development?  Very funny. Even your Great China itself first focused on being able to feed its people, as did other Asians nations that have done so much better than us.

The SGR will reduce time and cost, eh?  Kenya, 50 years ago, had a perfectly decent railway.  Narrow-gauge.  After failing to maintain and properly use it, the "bright" solution is a costly new line.  Standard-gauge.

Kenya's Great SGR will allow speeds of 80-120 kph.   Fantastic.  A Japanese railway expert that the EAC countries asked for advice had this to say: (a) the focus on gauge is misplaced and unnecessary; (b) Japan has for years had had higher speeds on narrow-gauge, 130-160 kph; and (c) unless maintenance is taken seriously, this is a futile exercise.  [He emphasized the last point, on which African history speaks for itself.]

Elsewhere you have claimed that the West have for years been building roads and railways that them went to the dogs.   And the Chinese ones?  Will they be made of hyper-special steel and tarmac that is not only self-maintaining but also edible during famines and drinkable at times of thirst?


My fundamental view is not about West vs. East.
  It is about how we can uplift ourselves?   You say the West has failed in 50 years?  As I see it, if true, it should confirm the dangers of relying on others. 

I want us to work feeding ourselves, our children not dying from easily-preventable diseases, and so on and so forth. And, as far as I can tell, much of the basics do not require stadiums or railway lines.  But they do require that we change some thinking and priorities.   

I'd like imagine an Africa beyond saidia-saidia-saidia.  The next 50 years to be radicaly different from the last 50 years of sovereign-and-independent.   And looking at the historical facts, I will not share your enthusiasm for Kung Fu.

You say that

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Africa is basket case beggar who is incredibly corrupt and irresponsible..this is supported by overwhelming evidence..am not prepared to argue about.

Indeed. 

Only Africans will change that, and they better start working on it.  Serious, hard work. Neither Chinese loans nor Western aid come with a cure-all for incredible corruption and irresponsibility.   

Kung Fu as the Great Saviour?   I visit that country often, and they have nothing but contempt for us and our apparent inability to improve our lot. 

Instead of a dubious "discussion" on whether to bend over for pink sausage or to bend over for spring-roll, how about one on standing upright, as human beings?     
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2015, 08:38:17 AM »
Now you've tied yourself in knots. You're now all over. You have been defending western AID  but now you have look for easy way out...the corrupt African leaders and it's people.

US, West, China and everyone else (including you) has been through where we have been...and they've needed help..genuine help along the way.

What we need are genuine friends offering genuine help...China to me appear such.

There is no doubt that after 15yrs engagment with Africa. Africa is now rising..classic example..Ethiopia has been growing at double digit..when US and EU long declared it the classic Africa basket case that was annually begging food in their annual famine festival.

Look at countries growing at double digit in Africa..and you'll find their engagment with China is very deep.

We were late into the Chinese gravy but thank goodness we are on it now. The future can only be bright with SGR, with modern roads, with more electricity, with better security.

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More hair splitting. 

Feel free to call it that.  But, please, indulge me and "split hairs" by answering questions like:

"China will, China will, China.  When will they? 

Kenyans still routinely beg for food.  Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems? 

Where are all those factories in Kenya?  Last I heard, your were bragging about the  trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.

Kenyan children are dying like flies from illnesses caused by nothing more than the lack of clean drinking water.   Where in Kenya are those Chinese "massive water supply systems"?


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Perhaps we can flip this. Tell us one AID project by any western partners you're really proud of. I can barely count five in my one hand despite 50yrs of assistance to Africa.

You really need to give up on this West-vs-East nonsense.  Try to imagine Africans doing for Africans.  But I will indulge you ....

First: I am not proud of any kind of aid, from the West or elsewhere.   I find it a painful and shameful embarrassment that we endlessly keep begging for something as basic as food, that our children keep dying like flies from the lack of something as simple as clean drinking water ...   ... and all the time people keep yelling about sovereign and independent.   50 years, and it's still going on.   

I think we should do for ourselves.   As I said, before you tell me how we will have a railway for 100 years, tell me how we will feed ourselves for 100 years.

Second: I have already tried to point this out ... it is not for the West or East to take responsibility for Africa.  So it is infantile to demand explanations for why their assistance has not worked; instead, one should carefully look at those getting assistance. 

Saidia, saidia, saidia,  ... and if we continue to mess up, it is your fault and we'll turn East!  Sigh. Some rethinking is necessary here.

Third: Having said that, there are some things I am grateful for, given that African "leaders" are devoted to everything except the welfare of their citizens, and some of those citizens are unable to free themselves from the saidia-saidia mentality.

Since this is a Kenyan forum, I will give you 4 examples, on different scales:

(1) Food aid: I hate to think of the numbers that would be dead by now if it had not been for a positive response to the perpetual saidia-saidia-saidia, always accompanied by gut-wrenching photos of filthy, skeletal people surrounded with flies.

That this food aid is never---and will never be---a permanent solution is not a reflection on those who provide it. It says more about those who chose to focus on other things.  And, for sure nobody ever lived by eating steel from a railway line or a brick from a stadium wall.

(2) HIV/AIDS: Kenya's future development will depend on its ability to, at the very least keep alive a substantial chunk of its most productive populace, and a fair bit of that is infected. 

Kenyans should be very grateful that the USA is doing so much, by way of paying for ARVs (and other interventions) for so many.  True, it's not a stadium or a railway; but to my mind it is far better to be alive without those than to be six feet under the Chinese SGR.

(3) Education: Kenyans have been very excited about free primary-school education.   That's actually largely funded by the Nasty West.   Still, this being Kenya, some things seem inevitable:

(4) Malaria:  I took note of your derision of USAID mosquito-nets.  I grew up in a malaria-endemic part of Kenya, and I know what it can do to people even if it does not kill them. So I am grateful that while the GoK has been doing bugger-all, USAID has done a great deal in that area.  That's more Kenyans who will still be alive to ride on the Chinese SGR.

Quote
Now you have this wierd notion of what development really is. For you development is what handing a beggar food..not taking the beggar out of the street. I am not sure what development philosophy this belongs to..it look to me like emergency band aid...that US and EU have been conducting in Africa for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not have any such notion.  My notion is that Africans need to start by focusing on such basic things as being able to feed themsleves. The beggar should stop waiting to be taken "out of the street" and instead walk out on his own two feet.

I will not repeat what is above---that the "emergency band aid" has saved countless lives.  If the USA and the EU have been involved in non-working "emergency band aid" for 50 years, the most pressing questions have to be these:

(a) Why is Africa perpetually in need of "emergency band aid", after 50 years of its "leaders" shouting about sovereign-and-independent.

(b) What exactly are Africans doing for themselves to ensure that they will not need "emergency band aid" in the future.

Please stop telling me how the USA and the EU have failed, especially when they keep getting told to fuck off with neo-colonial imperialism, because Africa is now sovereign-and-independent.      I would rather hear about

(a) what Africans have been doing to succeed; and

(b) what Africans plan to do for the future, beyond the never-ending "the situtaion is desperate now; the international community needs to do something".

Quote
Development. Sustainable Development. Human development. Just look at what Chinese are doing. That railway line will reduce travel cost and time.. and multiplier effect on everything including

I was tempted to ask for details about this "multiplier effect", but you have a funny way with numbers, and i don't think we'll get far on cooked-up figures.

Sustainable development?   Human development?  Very funny. Even your Great China itself first focused on being able to feed its people, as did other Asians nations that have done so much better than us.

The SGR will reduce time and cost, eh?  Kenya, 50 years ago, had a perfectly decent railway.  Narrow-gauge.  After failing to maintain and properly use it, the "bright" solution is a costly new line.  Standard-gauge.

Kenya's Great SGR will allow speeds of 80-120 kph.   Fantastic.  A Japanese railway expert that the EAC countries asked for advice had this to say: (a) the focus on gauge is misplaced and unnecessary; (b) Japan has for years had had higher speeds on narrow-gauge, 130-160 kph; and (c) unless maintenance is taken seriously, this is a futile exercise.  [He emphasized the last point, on which African history speaks for itself.]

Elsewhere you have claimed that the West have for years been building roads and railways that them went to the dogs.   And the Chinese ones?  Will they be made of hyper-special steel and tarmac that is not only self-maintaining but also edible during famines and drinkable at times of thirst?


My fundamental view is not about West vs. East.
  It is about how we can uplift ourselves?   You say the West has failed in 50 years?  As I see it, if true, it should confirm the dangers of relying on others. 

I want us to work feeding ourselves, our children not dying from easily-preventable diseases, and so on and so forth. And, as far as I can tell, much of the basics do not require stadiums or railway lines.  But they do require that we change some thinking and priorities.   

I'd like imagine an Africa beyond saidia-saidia-saidia.  The next 50 years to be radicaly different from the last 50 years of sovereign-and-independent.   And looking at the historical facts, I will not share your enthusiasm for Kung Fu.

You say that

Quote
Africa is basket case beggar who is incredibly corrupt and irresponsible..this is supported by overwhelming evidence..am not prepared to argue about.

Indeed. 

Only Africans will change that, and they better start working on it.  Serious, hard work. Neither Chinese loans nor Western aid come with a cure-all for incredible corruption and irresponsibility.   

Kung Fu as the Great Saviour?   I visit that country often, and they have nothing but contempt for us and our apparent inability to improve our lot. 

Instead of a dubious "discussion" on whether to bend over for pink sausage or to bend over for spring-roll, how about one on standing upright, as human beings?     

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #45 on: February 10, 2015, 10:16:27 AM »
Why do folks take WB or IMF or UN to be part of Western AID/Gov. Those are global mulitateral insitutions where kenya and 200 other countries have shareholding. The US & EU does misuse them for political reasons..but without strong arm [like vetos and refusal to increase WB/IMF capital]..their influence at those institutions would be at par with other countries.

Thankfully China has not only rolled out their own banks but have worked with BRICS to develop banks that can respond to 21st century development issues...

Banks not afraid to lent 10B dollars to poor basket case African country.

Here we have a circuitous debate which reveals the following: Beijing is flexing her muscles in Africa and, in turn, Africans are becoming heavily indebted to Beijing. On the SGR project, Kenya funded a mere 10% (correct me if am wrong), and Exim Bank of China financed the balance through two separate loans to be repaid by the GoK from future rail revenues; thus it is conceivable that Beijing will be running the SGR as a concession.

Meanwhile, last week, Kenya turned to the Bretton Woods institutions and received the Fund's imprimatur sealing a $504.3m Stand-Buy Agreement and a smaller $194m Stand-By Credit Facility. Of note upon reading a snippet of the deal is the following: [the] new precautionary financing arrangements would provide a policy anchor for continued macroeconomic and institutional reforms...[and] durable poverty reduction. To achieve the latter, we are likely to see more cleaning up of Kibera, Mathare and other slums in a quest to appease the Fund and The Bank. Wazees in hamlets, townships and villages all across Kenya will see a rise in their monthly allowances from Nairobi.

The proof is in the IMF Conditionality.


Unless I am missing something I would hope not to be one of..."the folks who take WB or IMF or UN to be part of Western AID/Gov." The distinction is important. The essence of my point was to draw the clear distinction that whereas the recent IMF-GoK loan agreement was noted for its transparency, unfortunately, the loan agreement for the SGR negotiated between Beijing and Nairobi was shrouded in opacity. Notwithstanding the fact that as a matter of public policy in a democratic state, it would not be asking too much if the political class had taken just a little bit of time to educate the wananchi about the supposed merits of the project and the use of their hard earned shillings.

Inasmuch as I do not dispute your second point-- that the two Bretton Woods institutions have been misused for political reasons by the US and EU-- there is absolutely no guarantee that the envisaged BRICs bank - the New Development Bank - will not fall victim to the same vagaries of politics as the aforementioned. As the biggest shareholder in the bank Beijings power cannot or will not be gainsaid. That's how institutions are/work.

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2015, 04:28:58 PM »
Now you've tied yourself in knots. You're now all over. You have been defending western AID  but now you have look for easy way out...the corrupt African leaders and it's people.

First:   Your argument has been that the West has failed in Africa because the aid it has given Africa has done much good. I hope I have helped you see the flaw in your reasoning.   And seeing that flaw does not require a determination of whether the aid has worked or not.

Second: What knots?   It appears that you have not been reading much of what I wrote, although in some places I put in red bold font by way of encouraging.   Here is some of it again, in the original red bold font:

Anyway, one more time:

(1) It is not the West's responsibility to take care of Africa.   So it is absurd to keep saying that they have failed in Africa.

(2) If whatever money the West has put into Africa has gone to waste---and that is yet to be established objectively---then it is not the West that has failed; it is the recipients.

(3) Africans---at least those like you who seem to think so---need to give up this idea that either the West or the East will save them.   They need to start doing for themselves, and a good place to start would be to feed themselves instead of having to rely on perpetual begging.

(4) Africa needs to first focus on human development.  One can eat or drink a stadium or a railway.


and

Africa has to start taking human development much more seriously.  Until that happens, the place  will remain a perpetual basket case of beggars---shiny new railway and stadium, from borrowed money, but can't even feed themselves.


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The future can only be bright with SGR, with modern roads, with more electricity, with better security.

If you say so.   But try to throw in some small things like food.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #47 on: February 10, 2015, 05:43:49 PM »
I believe no matter who does what for Kenya.  Nothing is going to change for the better until the Kenyan realizes he is nobody's burden.  There are no shortcuts.  No country has ever been developed by another.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #48 on: February 10, 2015, 06:57:15 PM »
Maybe cuttting Moonki vaunted AID and replacing it with Chinese Loans (to be re-paid with interest) and Investment(if profitable) will help Africans do that. Kenyan is doing fairly well in that regard..from 90s when AID formed 50% of the budget..to now when we self-finance 95%.

Moonki AID in the meantime is mostly entrenching dependency sydrome in places like Ukambani, Nyanza (now-HIV/Globla fund) and most of northern kenya...folks have become so used to free yellow maize...it seem impossible how one can teach them about no short cuts.

Geographically about 2/3 of kenya landmass has been on WFP/Kenya gov yellow maize (from Illinois) for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!

That is what Moonki is celebrating....while deriding Chinese loans and investments.


I believe no matter who does what for Kenya.  Nothing is going to change for the better until the Kenyan realizes he is nobody's burden.  There are no shortcuts.  No country has ever been developed by another.

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #49 on: February 10, 2015, 10:16:46 PM »
I believe no matter who does what for Kenya.  Nothing is going to change for the better until the Kenyan realizes he is nobody's burden.  There are no shortcuts.  No country has ever been developed by another.

And that's what the political class in Kenya fails to capture. Putting their eggs in one basket--China-- will come a cropper for several reasons:

- China will not meddle in Kenyan or African internal affairs until her interests are threatened; they now have combat soldiers in South Sudan.

- The current account deficit between Beijing and Nairobi has been increasing on a year-on-year basis.

- Having a president lacking in critical thinking skills percolates to the rest of the populace. Uhuru rants at the AU about supposedly declining Western powers then turns around and begs them to lift their travel advisories. The cornerstone of tourism in Kenya? The vilified declining powers + Japan.

- An immense 36,000 Chinese tourists visited Kenya in 2014. And that is without a travel advisory.


Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2015, 11:07:56 PM »
Maybe cuttting Moonki vaunted AID and replacing it with Chinese Loans (to be re-paid with interest) and Investment(if profitable) will help Africans do that. Kenyan is doing fairly well in that regard..from 90s when AID formed 50% of the budget..to now when we self-finance 95%.

He, he, he ... So you too have been swallowing that little trick.    Budget/Off-Budget is just a game.   Are those billions (dollars) in grants included in this 95% budget?

Please go back and look at what actually happened.   At some point,  GoK made the deliberate decision that most aid would not be included in the budget ... supposedly because it is not guaranteed.   So almost all of it is now "off-budget", and you have the situation where USAID alone--no need to consider others---spends far more on Kenyan health than GoK spends in its budget, but GoK can still say it is funding ninety-whatever-percent of the health budget.

The real reality is when donors warn, as they did this week, that people should not fuck with  their money:

http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Donors-warn-counties-on-fund-use/-/1064/2619986/-/cofvy6/-/index.html

And sometimes they mean business, such as when they cut off the money for the "free primary education from the serikali yetu" because some  of it was getting eaten.

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Geographically about 2/3 of kenya landmass has been on WFP/Kenya gov yellow maize (from Illinois) for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!

Yellow maize for 50 years, eh?   And 2/3 of the landmass?   Wow.   And instead of being concerned about starting to figure out  to how feed themselves, quite a few Kenyans are jerking off  about Kung Fu railway, as if they will be able to eat that?    Amazing.  Truly amazing.   Always, China will, China will, China will.   When will we?

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deriding Chinese loans and investments.

The Great Chinese Stuff again?     Once again:

"China will, China will, China.  When will they? 

Kenyans still routinely beg for food.  Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems? 

Where are all those factories in Kenya?  Last I heard, your were bragging about the  trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.

Kenyan children are dying like flies from illnesses caused by nothing more than the lack of clean drinking water.   Where in Kenya are those Chinese "massive water supply systems"?


Now, scroll back along this thread, and if you see anything in red bold font, do this:

READ IT!
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Offline RV Pundit

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Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2015, 06:40:43 PM »
Kagame butts in
Kagame is a charismatic man.  And a bad leader.  The kind who will never permit the country to function without him.  They usually leave the scene, a trail destruction in their wake.  Their "good works" don't survive beyond their regime.

He is right that Africa should prefer trade rather than aid.  The truth is Rwanda has been trading for a long time.  Mostly things that come from the ground.  Rwandans are not making things or providing services that other people want.

You would think that cheap labor would be a start.  But you will never see any of the things that cheap labor makes coming from Rwanda.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2015, 07:12:36 PM »
Kagame is a funny man.    It would be hard to imagine how Rwanda could survive without foreign aid ... and Mr. Kagame has done what to wean them off?.    Put aside the freebie grants that are not even in the budget ... Rwanda's official budget has for long been financed by foreigners ... by up to 48%-50%.   Lately, it has been down to "just" 40%.

Here's a man who knows something about both Kagame and Rwanda's economy:

""  (David Himbara, Jan 2015)

http://qz.com/327694/why-i-quit-as-rwandan-president-paul-kagames-economic-advisor-tyranny-and-lies/

"I resigned not only because he was tyrannizing the nation, but also because he asked me to tamper with the truth about the economy."

Rwanda's so-called economic miracle is nothing more than a lot of aid for a relatively small population.    And on the side, there is also some money from little things like sending "peacekeepers" to all sorts of places.

This is Africa, and asante ya punda ni? So, naturally, Kagame, like his aid-dependent buddy, Museveni, is one of the toughest talkers against "imperialism" and "neo-colonialism".      But it is not clear that he can indefinitely milk the collective guilt that the world feels over the 1994 genocide.
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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2015, 07:49:19 PM »
You would think that cheap labor would be a start.  But you will never see any of the things that cheap labor makes coming from Rwanda.

That can be extrapolated to most of The Beloved Continent, which once again seems to be missing the boat.  Hardly anybody makes anything anywhere.   Cheap Chinese junk is preferred, but nobody seems to be interested in learning any useful lessons from Kung Fu ... not even when it comes to self-sufficiency in food. 

Kung Fu has done well from its cheap labour, which has led to all sorts of folks having their manufacturing down there, not to mention the tidy sums to be made from selling cheap-made junk to suckers.   But wages are rising, and even Kung Fu himself is now beginning to outsource the really low-end stuff to "lesser" Asian countries.   And Africa?

The rising wages in China should have been opportunity for African countries to step in and fill the gap, given the large number of youthful idlers that the continent has.   That has not happened.   Instead, those who used to outsource to Kung Fu are now heading to places like Vietnam, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, etc..   And Kung himself is doing the same

Another thing:


Putting aside "economic benefits", a large and young populace that is mostly is idle is a ticking time-bomb, even in reasonably-adjusted places like Kenya. In fact it is even worse in places like Kenya, where education, access to technology (TV and internet) etc. makes the youth more aware of the external world and keeps raising expectations.
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
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Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2015, 08:09:27 AM »
Kagame butts in
Kagame is a charismatic man.  And a bad leader.  The kind who will never permit the country to function without him.  They usually leave the scene, a trail destruction in their wake.  Their "good works" don't survive beyond their regime.

He is right that Africa should prefer trade rather than aid.  The truth is Rwanda has been trading for a long time.  Mostly things that come from the ground.  Rwandans are not making things or providing services that other people want.

You would think that cheap labor would be a start.  But you will never see any of the things that cheap labor makes coming from Rwanda.

That's one rambling and utterly incoherent speech by Kagame. He is your typical African leader - lives in a world of platitudes.

Offline Reticent Solipsist

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2015, 08:28:46 AM »
You would think that cheap labor would be a start.  But you will never see any of the things that cheap labor makes coming from Rwanda.

That can be extrapolated to most of The Beloved Continent, which once again seems to be missing the boat.  Hardly anybody makes anything anywhere.   Cheap Chinese junk is preferred, but nobody seems to be interested in learning any useful lessons from Kung Fu ... not even when it comes to self-sufficiency in food. 

Kung Fu has done well from its cheap labour, which has led to all sorts of folks having their manufacturing down there, not to mention the tidy sums to be made from selling cheap-made junk to suckers.   But wages are rising, and even Kung Fu himself is now beginning to outsource the really low-end stuff to "lesser" Asian countries.   And Africa?

The rising wages in China should have been opportunity for African countries to step in and fill the gap, given the large number of youthful idlers that the continent has.   That has not happened.   Instead, those who used to outsource to Kung Fu are now heading to places like Vietnam, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, etc..   And Kung himself is doing the same

Another thing:


Putting aside "economic benefits", a large and young populace that is mostly is idle is a ticking time-bomb, even in reasonably-adjusted places like Kenya. In fact it is even worse in places like Kenya, where education, access to technology (TV and internet) etc. makes the youth more aware of the external world and keeps raising expectations.

It seems rather obvious why the Kenyatta government (and Kibaki's) would opt for Chinese mega projects - the lack of probity and the concomitant opportunities for rent seeking. Chinese technology is 100% inferior to that of the Japanese; ersatz in all facets.

Recently in S.E. Asia, the Burmese decided that they's had enough of Chinese duplicity and arrogance. They opted for the Japanese to construct the Myanmar-Cambodian Rail. http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/learning-from-news/461169/thai-japan-railway-to-link-burma-cambodia

Note how the project has linkages and spin-offs, including an integrated steel mill. That's how you develop an economy.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2015, 04:50:14 PM »
I know this is a slightly different subject, here is OECD aid at a glance http://www.oecd.org/countries/kenya/aid-at-a-glance.htm.

I hadn't realized how much Kenya receives from the US - it's one of the biggest recipients from that source.

"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2015, 05:31:15 PM »
I hadn't realized how much Kenya receives from the US - it's one of the biggest recipients from that source.

USA aid to Kenya rose very rapidly from the time a certain fellow got into the White House.   I recall a US Congressional budget hearing in which the USAID person stated that the figures had been increasingly so rapidly that they could hire people fast enough to manage the Kenyan file.

The figures you give are actually probably conservative and don't include all the amounts.   For example, I believe the 2011 figures don't include about another $200 million in emergency humanitarian relief.
     
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Offline RV Pundit

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Re: Kenya Bends Ready For Chinese Tarimbo
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2015, 09:01:50 AM »
The question remain where has 700M USD gone?