Author Topic: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide  (Read 3238 times)

Offline Ka-Bella

  • Regular
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Reputation: 72
Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« on: February 23, 2015, 11:00:14 AM »
In reading around the net on differences between Sunni and Shia Muslims when it comesto extremism, I found this article written a couple of years ago. It makes sense to me. Here: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/sunni-and-shia-terror-a-difference-that-matters/

Shia and Sunni extremism do not express themselves the same way, it seems. The Wahabbi Salafist nonsense (Sunni extremism) is the stuff everyone across the globe is dealing with  in some form, from Al-Shabaab to Boko Haram to Al-Qaeda to the Pakistani Taliban groups and Chechen ones in Russia to the ones in India and the Philipines and Indonesia, to the monster ISIS/ISIL to the random attacks in the West, like the idiot who beheaded a soldier on the streets of London.

But we hardly ever encounter Shia extremism in any form outside Iran/Iraq where the majority population is Shia and itaexpression even then tends to sectarian violence with Sunnis. This writer says that Shia extremism is more organizational/state-centered with tangible regime-based goals. Very political, sophisticated too. He says it is much more akin to the IRA than your typical Wahabbi suicide-bomber/decapitator. I think it makes sense.

Compare fighter groups like Hezbollah (Shia) and Hamas (Sunni) for example, that many would consider to have legitimate causes. Both have essentially been engaged in the same struggle against Israel on behalf of Palestinians. At least, this was the case before the current CIA-inspired Mid-Eastern chaos drew them to Syria to fight Sunni fighters in aid of Asad, Iran's ally.

But in terms of organization and operations and methods of warfare, Hezbollah is much more like a typical army than Hamas. And despite Iran having become one of America's enemies since the Shah was deposed in 79, you never hear of a Shiah Muslim randomly killing a person simply because he's in some kind of abominable/unacceptable religious tradition or lack thereof, including foreigners in their midst. The suffering of Iranians, like Saudis, has much to do with the state itself, like in any typical dictatorship,except this particular kind has a religious expression like in mideveal Europe.

That author thought back then (2013) that lumping Shiahs and Sunnis together (when speaking of extremism) was a mistake. He seems to think that Shiahs, even extremist ones, are in general much less whacko than Wahabbi terrorists. He would appear to think it much easier/wiser to negotiate and ally with Iranians (much to Isreal's chagrin) than any brand of Salafist Jihadism. Having seen the kind of world ISIS is ushering into the world, I tend to agree.

Majority Sunnis in Egypt are totally anti-ISIS. (They get like 3-4% approval rating in Egypt, a majority Sunni country). I think majority Sunnis elsewhere are the same way. In fact, my understanding is that without the rich Saudis indirectly supporting/sponsoring Wahabbism (a kind of radical revolution that took place within Sunni Islam in Saudi Arabia about a century ago kinda like an Islamic "protestantism"  as I've seen it described, and not at all the majority in Sunni Islam) much of modern Sunni terrorism wouldn't exist.

Obama recently got into trouble for declining to admit that ISIS were Islamic. I think it's better to call them Wahabbi extremists (though Al-Qaeda would protest!) or if not then at most, Sunni extremists, rather than simply pretending that it is not religion that motivates ISIS. It is religion, but it is just one ( a minority, even within Sunni Islam) among the expressions of Islam.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/sunni-and-shia-terror-a-difference-that-matters/

Offline Omollo

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 7143
  • Reputation: 13780
  • http://www.omollosview.com
    • Omollosview
Re: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2015, 11:32:10 AM »
Ka Bella

It is a poorly guarded secret. Most of the money financing these Wahhabis from Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the Gulf states where the brand of Islam is very strong. However Saudi Arabia is a "friend" of the US - at least the ruling family says so. That has meant the US and others have kept off. Saudi Arabia leadership has consultations with Israel and they cooperate in a number of areas. That means Israel also looks the other side as money pours. It is a situation I have never quite understood.

I was stationed in the region for a short while and I never saw any place with so much alcohol pretending to have forbidden the stuff!

That said, I think there is need to re-examine what we mean by extremism. I think legitimate concerns such as the oppression of the Palestinians should not constitute "extremism". The term "Extremism" has replaced "Communism" as the bogeyman for the West and many dictatorships. Take Egypt's Al Sisi - an unapologetic dictator who is fast buying himself legitimacy by selling his credentials as an anti-extremist leader! Never mind that his actions in Egypt have led to the extremism he now claims to fight!

Closer home, you have Karangi using the same to line up his pockets.
... [the ICC case] will be tried in Europe, where due procedure and expertise prevail.; ... Second-guessing Ocampo and fantasizing ..has obviously become a national pastime.- NattyDread

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2015, 11:33:28 AM »
Ka-bella,
I think Islam (of whatever shade) is just mere cover for what essentially is a political power struggle in the Arab/Persian world. Muslims are peaceful and progressive in ASIA (Malaysia, Indonesia, etc).

What need to happen in Arab/Persian world is the separation of religion from state. This happen some 300-500yrs in Europe and America..and now the Pope and it's church is just strictly a religion...when it was a state..you had crusaders and pope knights doing what ISIS are doing..in the holy name of Pope and GOD.

For seperation to happen..democracy must strive...the mosque/imams/islamic leaders must stop being the only way citizens in a islamic country can express themselves.

Middle east (mostly) need modern constitution with all the institutions that we've got here in Africa...and elsewhere.

The west (mainly British, Frenc and Russia..and later USA) have created this mess....from the day they split Ottoman empire in 1918...and allowed tribal leaders and islamic leaders..to carve out small regional fiefdom..to the mess in Isreal..and eventually the discovery of Oil....middle east people have been failed...by West looking the other side as long as oil and isreal are okay.

What do the people of middle east and such areas have...against heriditary or military rules...the MOSQUE..the only place people can congregate and speak their minds freely in any of those dictatorship.

The same way Europe, Asia, Latin America and Africa dealt with dictatorship and military rule..is the only way to solve the middle east problems.

Islam or Christianity or Atheist...are human..intrinsically humane...they are being pushed to become inhumane..by conspiracy of military dictatorship in cahoot with the west.

The west have to accept democracy even if  initially people will reward ISIS or Muslim brotherhood or Alshabaab with a win....but of course with Isreal...the west will blockade democracy...like they did in Egypt..a country that was emerging from Mubarak military dictatorship into a democracy.

The few democratic countries in middle east and magreb are progressive....Tunisia and Algeria..are some of example..that democracy can work there too.

The solution is not demonize Islam...it to demand middle east countries...allow FREE PRESS, FREE AND FAIR REGULAR ELECTIONS, Multiple political parties competing on policy, Parliament, Judiciary, Federalism and Devolution (to deal with tribal and secratian issues)...once you've done that....islam will be relegated to what church is in kenya...a place to hang out in Sundays if you have nothing better to do.

A UNSC resolution for example that blockade Oil from any of middle east country and any military purchase if they have not established a constitution with modern bill of rights and open democratic system....will in short time...deal with islamic extermism.

Offline Ka-Bella

  • Regular
  • *
  • Posts: 60
  • Reputation: 72
Re: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2015, 01:52:07 PM »
Thanks for the contributions, gentlemen. Here's what wikipedia says of Wahhabism and their connection to Saudi Arabia. Fascinating! I had got the date wrong, it's two centuries, not one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabism

Quote


Offline Mr Mansfield.

  • VIP
  • Mega superstar
  • *
  • Posts: 268
  • Reputation: 205
Re: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2015, 11:22:32 AM »
Four issues,

(1) Artificial states,The Arab states were created after the defeat of the ottoman empire by the French and British under sykes-picot agreement,they merged antagonistic tribes to form nations which has led to continued violence since that period of time,same thing happened to Africa,what needs to be done is review boundaries and form new states,

(2) The USA/Europe Foreign policy,For them to retain their dominance in Arab world,crisis must be manufactured and this can only be done through control of antagonistic tribes in the artificial states,

(3) Israeli,It must ensure there is a divided Arab world to reduce opposition,

(4) Religion,The West/Christian wants a weak Arab world/Islam to ensure Islam doesn't spread,if you look at most parts of North Africa UAE and Muslim Europe,Islam based principles have been on a decline,If you also look on a global scale,The west turning a blind eye on salafists and sponsoring opposition groups which have metarmophosised into terror groups has given Islam a bad name which will further weaken it while the west uses counter terrorism to maintain influence,

Without Prejudice.

Offline RV Pundit

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 37009
  • Reputation: 1074446
Re: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2015, 02:53:42 PM »
Islam is a tool.It's a tool that powerful force uses to whip the mass or discard when they do not need it.Islam' role during the Ottoman empire was quite diminished. During ottoman empire, christians and Jews, enjoyed equal rights.It' the western powers (read British, French and US) who looking for a foothold in Ottoman empire (mostly in Arab areas) sought to use Islamic fundamentalist and tribal leaders to forment rebellion to throw out Ottoman empire.

This new fundementalist is a creation of the west....right from 1914..till today.

Offline Kim Jong-Un's Pajama Pants

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 8727
  • Reputation: 106254
  • An oryctolagus cuniculus is feeding on my couch
Re: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2015, 10:13:03 PM »
Once you remove the Palestinian issue, the rest of the chaos is medieval lunacy.  It may have had causes elsewhere, related to resources and geopolitics.  But medieval lunacy is now the engine.
"I freed a thousand slaves.  I could have freed a thousand more if only they knew they were slaves."

Harriet Tubman

Offline MOON Ki

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 2667
  • Reputation: 5780
Re: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2015, 01:21:46 AM »
Once you remove the Palestinian issue, the rest of the chaos is medieval lunacy.  It may have had causes elsewhere, related to resources and geopolitics.  But medieval lunacy is now the engine.

Exactly. It has as much to do with past Western mischief as does today's "routine tribal clashes" and "traditional cattle-rustling" in today's undivided Kenya.

To be continued ...
MOON Ki  is  Muli Otieno Otiende Njoroge arap Kiprotich
Your True Friend, Brother,  and  Compatriot.

Offline Georgesoros

  • Moderator
  • Enigma
  • *
  • Posts: 4207
  • Reputation: 7043
Re: Islamic Extremism and the Shia/Sunni Divide
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2015, 06:40:53 PM »
Cant mix God and govt. Remember when Jesus said "give unto Cesars his" when pharisees wanted to corner him on religion and taxes? You can't mix science and Gods creationism. Let things of God be Gods and science me mans.