Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Georgesoros on September 29, 2017, 01:48:38 AM
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That's the same thing Venezuela did and now it's in a mess. Power is a very intoxicating thing. Once you unchecked power It's even worse. Just ask Trump or Putin.
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Ruto is now officially the president because Ouru loves drinking too much. Ouru should be very worried about his legacy instead of being called SOB. People are called SOB's all the time but you do not abuse your power and take away their liberty and torture them. It now seems like it cannot happen to him but this Kenya is a tinderbox. With the number of unemployed youth doing nothing, lawlessness can break very quickly and then even the secret killing squad cannot put it back.
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If you tell them that they will tell you they have the numbers forgetting those numbers on their side is a bunch of unemployed 'business men'
Ruto is now officially the president because Ouru loves drinking too much. Ouru should be very worried about his legacy instead of being called SOB. People are called SOB's all the time but you do not abuse your power and take away their liberty and torture them. It now seems like it cannot happen to him but this Kenya is a tinderbox. With the number of unemployed youth doing nothing, lawlessness can break very quickly and then even the secret killing squad cannot put it back.
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That's the tried-and-true path on the continent, the land of the most and most bizarre "constitutional amendments" and changes to the law. Always starts small-small, always ends with plenty of blood and tears. But, hey, who cares about that right now. What matters right now, as has always been the case, is power or access to power---via sucking up big time---with the main goal being big-time eating. It's actually sort or "eerie" to see the same missteps happen again, in slow motion.
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Parliament job is to make or ammend laws to solve real problems.
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Some amendments make sense. Why would an RO fail to sign off results?
Hang them by their gonads
Others are pure crap
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I know you're trying to remain fair and balanced - which to me is impossible undertaking considering NASA are making unreasonable demands and wild claims- but which ones are of the proposed amendments are pure crap?
Others are pure crap
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You amend laws to make a democracy stronger not to weaken it. Kenya is heading the current Venezuela way. Even Chavez, as a marxist as he was, believed in fairness and never changed laws to benefit his kind.
BTW Moi had the majority and did the same thing and by the time he was finished........
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You amend laws to make a democracy stronger not to weaken it. Kenya is heading the current Venezuela way. Even Chavez, as a marxist as he was, believed in fairness and never changed laws to benefit his kind.
BTW Moi had the majority and did the same thing and by the time he was finished........
Yep. If the judge says you broke the law, you just make the crime legal and problem solved. The Kenyan way.
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You amend laws to make a democracy stronger not to weaken it. Kenya is heading the current Venezuela way. Even Chavez, as a marxist as he was, believed in fairness and never changed laws to benefit his kind.
BTW Moi had the majority and did the same thing and by the time he was finished........
There was a guy here last week trying to lay claim to a new identity as one who is appalled by rigging. I told him I could not buy his tricks. If you want to know him, find the only person cheering the creation of rigging and the reversal of ALL the provisions of inter-party agreement in summer 2016.
I just have a problem treating such rubble with respect.
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The one is where the RO at the polling station must complete 34A and sign it or face prosecution. The clear intention is to force RO's to sign 34A's by force even when they disagree with the figure placed in them by security people. Its back to 2007 when Kivuitu was forced to announce the elections. Its ironic that at that time Martha Karua was the enforcer and the other day she was being blocked from entering the court room to file a petition against a thief. That's how things change quickly.
I know you're trying to remain fair and balanced - which to me is impossible undertaking considering NASA are making unreasonable demands and wild claims- but which ones are of the proposed amendments are pure crap?
Others are pure crap
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Biwott used to be a strong man, but he dies quietly leaving the country in the same rumble. Had he given power to the people we could be a South Korea, but he amassed wealth at the expense of Kenya. The percentage of poor Kenyans is far greater than 10yrs ago and its climbing. A critical mass will make the country as chaotic as Nigeria. Nigeria has a big economy but daily chaos reign - no water, reliable infrastructure etc.
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The one is where the RO at the polling station must complete 34A and sign it or face prosecution. The clear intention is to force RO's to sign 34A's by force even when they disagree with the figure placed in them by security people. Its back to 2007 when Kivuitu was forced to announce the elections. Its ironic that at that time Martha Karua was the enforcer and the other day she was being blocked from entering the court room to file a petition against a thief. That's how things change quickly.
I know you're trying to remain fair and balanced - which to me is impossible undertaking considering NASA are making unreasonable demands and wild claims- but which ones are of the proposed amendments are pure crap?
Others are pure crap
Yep ROs will be presented with jubilee prepared forms 34As and will be sent to jail if they refuse to sign.
Thieving bastards.
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I also found this suspect. Say Jubilee is wary of NASA moles posing as RO or PO - to sabotage the elections by refusing to sign or stamp the forms - the proper thing would be to require POs and ROs be personally required to append reasons for failure to sign/stamp forms. Perhaps through affidavit. Jail for failure to sign is just too suspect.
Pundit what is your spin to this?
The one is where the RO at the polling station must complete 34A and sign it or face prosecution. The clear intention is to force RO's to sign 34A's by force even when they disagree with the figure placed in them by security people. Its back to 2007 when Kivuitu was forced to announce the elections. Its ironic that at that time Martha Karua was the enforcer and the other day she was being blocked from entering the court room to file a petition against a thief. That's how things change quickly.
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Your friend says that is how Uhuru expands democracy. I am surprised you haven't cheered him
I also found this suspect. Say Jubilee is wary of NASA moles posing as RO or PO - to sabotage the elections by refusing to sign or stamp the forms - the proper thing would be to require POs and ROs be personally required to append reasons for failure to sign/stamp forms. Perhaps through affidavit. Jail for failure to sign is just too suspect.
Pundit what is your spin to this?
The one is where the RO at the polling station must complete 34A and sign it or face prosecution. The clear intention is to force RO's to sign 34A's by force even when they disagree with the figure placed in them by security people. Its back to 2007 when Kivuitu was forced to announce the elections. Its ironic that at that time Martha Karua was the enforcer and the other day she was being blocked from entering the court room to file a petition against a thief. That's how things change quickly.
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I didn't realize supporting politicians anonymously makes us friends. I am what you call an independent. Can't stand the sheeple ideology on either side.
Your friend says that is how Uhuru expands democracy. I am surprised you haven't cheered him
I also found this suspect. Say Jubilee is wary of NASA moles posing as RO or PO - to sabotage the elections by refusing to sign or stamp the forms - the proper thing would be to require POs and ROs be personally required to append reasons for failure to sign/stamp forms. Perhaps through affidavit. Jail for failure to sign is just too suspect.
Pundit what is your spin to this?
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Independent about what? The moral equivalency you are trying to draw is infuriating. You cannot be independent or neutral to injustice. There is a reason why genuine democracies such as the US makes it very difficult for the majority to change the rules. The rethuglicans have a genuine majority in all three branches of government and yet they cannot wake up one morning and change the rules to favor them. They are having problems even changing Obamacare. The majority you have in the Kenyan parliament is not legitimate. Other than the rigging, democracy envisioned an independent legislature. This legislature is not independent. It is controlled by Ouru and Ruto who literally bought them. This is NOT a majority as envisioned by the concepts and principles of democracy and should not be treated as such. Its like treating "kalongolongo" (somebody translate please) as real food.
I didn't realize supporting politicians anonymously makes us friends. I am what you call an independent. Can't stand the sheeple ideology on either side.
Your friend says that is how Uhuru expands democracy. I am surprised you haven't cheered him
I also found this suspect. Say Jubilee is wary of NASA moles posing as RO or PO - to sabotage the elections by refusing to sign or stamp the forms - the proper thing would be to require POs and ROs be personally required to append reasons for failure to sign/stamp forms. Perhaps through affidavit. Jail for failure to sign is just too suspect.
Pundit what is your spin to this?
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I also found this suspect. Say Jubilee is wary of NASA moles posing as RO or PO - to sabotage the elections by refusing to sign or stamp the forms - the proper thing would be to require POs and ROs be personally required to append reasons for failure to sign/stamp forms. Perhaps through affidavit. Jail for failure to sign is just too suspect.
Pundit what is your spin to this?
Robina,
This is one I totally support.
Tell me how practical it is for a PO to procure an affidavit and probably scan it together with the form 34A explaining why they couldn’t sign. If you are intimidated into signing off cooked results but you muster the courage not to, is the solution to send the same unsigned?
We had clear cases of sabotage where ROs for no reason vanished with forms 34Bs or refused to sign them but went ahead to scan and send them.
We have intimidation claims which are unproven vs sabotage claims evidenced by unsigned forms. Please propose something sensible to cure sabotage.
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I know you're trying to remain fair and balanced - which to me is impossible undertaking considering NASA are making unreasonable demands and wild claims- but which ones are of the proposed amendments are pure crap?
Others are pure crap
Manual transmission.
Saying hard originals are final shifts hacking from electronic to physical.
An RO can be intercepted and ordered or bribed into changing the original document after transmission. I think the risk of interference is way higher dealing with physical forms in this case as opposed to breaching VPNs and what have you
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Robina,
This is one I totally support.
Tell me how practical it is for a PO to procure an affidavit and probably scan it together with the form 34A explaining why they couldn’t sign. If you are intimidated into signing off cooked results but you muster the courage not to, is the solution to send the same unsigned?
We had clear cases of sabotage where ROs for no reason vanished with forms 34Bs or refused to sign them but went ahead to scan and send them.
We have intimidation claims which are unproven vs sabotage claims evidenced by unsigned forms. Please propose something sensible to cure sabotage.
vooke - this law shifts the burden of proof to the IEBC officials and not the culprits - which we know are the political parties.
There are two factors here - mistrust of NASA saboteurs and fear of intimidation/coercion by Jubilee state agents. For the first elections are done in broad daylight with media, agents & observers present. Party agents - including Jubilee's - take photos, copies, etc of the results. If they are cooked the PO or RO should simply refuse to append signature. If NASA had produced any originals to rebut the cooked forms the judges should have summoned the POs or ROs involved.
Find out why an IEBC officer did not sign a form - and punish them with that information only if culpable. Not a blanket presumption of guilt as the amendment does. Like the law of assault - which expressly exempts self-defence from fault - provide explicit protection for conscientious decisions not to sign bogus results. Of course should you find corrupt PO refused to sign the form for dubious reason - by say Jubilee agent forms showing no evidence of cooking - 5years is OK. Equally plain lack of signature or stamp should not invalidate results.
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I know you're trying to remain fair and balanced - which to me is impossible undertaking considering NASA are making unreasonable demands and wild claims- but which ones are of the proposed amendments are pure crap?
Others are pure crap
Manual transmission.
Saying hard originals are final shifts hacking from electronic to physical.
An RO can be intercepted and ordered or bribed into changing the original document after transmission. I think the risk of interference is way higher dealing with physical forms in this case as opposed to breaching VPNs and what have you
Couple manual with 5 years for not stamping or signing and you have big problems.
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That is the debate, isn't it? You are convinced Jubilee's majority is illegitimate while am not. MPs can change laws and that is exactly their mandate. The minority needs to engage and ensure any amendments are reasonable and pass muster. For instance public participation or judicial and IEBC independence can be petitioned in court if breached. Sorry parliament is not illegitimate just because NASA cannibalized itself. If Ruto "bought" MPs :) that's a separate item. You can sue the bought individuals.
Independent about what? The moral equivalency you are trying to draw is infuriating. You cannot be independent or neutral to injustice. There is a reason why genuine democracies such as the US makes it very difficult for the majority to change the rules. The rethuglicans have a genuine majority in all three branches of government and yet they cannot wake up one morning and change the rules to favor them. They are having problems even changing Obamacare. The majority you have in the Kenyan parliament is not legitimate. Other than the rigging, democracy envisioned an independent legislature. This legislature is not independent. It is controlled by Ouru and Ruto who literally bought them. This is NOT a majority as envisioned by the concepts and principles of democracy and should not be treated as such. Its like treating "kalongolongo" (somebody translate please) as real food.
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Kichwa yawa. Your wishes are not the law :) The SCOK decision shows our judicial independence. Petition parliament's legitimacy in court and see how fast your motion will tossed out. What you have in Kenya is psycophancy - unlike the US where McCain bulks at Trump on ObamaCare. Psycophancy is not illegitimacy.
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I know you're trying to remain fair and balanced - which to me is impossible undertaking considering NASA are making unreasonable demands and wild claims- but which ones are of the proposed amendments are pure crap?
Others are pure crap
Manual transmission.
Saying hard originals are final shifts hacking from electronic to physical.
An RO can be intercepted and ordered or bribed into changing the original document after transmission. I think the risk of interference is way higher dealing with physical forms in this case as opposed to breaching VPNs and what have you
This is the elephant in the room. Electronic transmission was specifically created to cure this problem. Now, electronic transmission is reduced to color commentary. If any form is modified on the way, it will differ with the electronic record and override it. It also means IEBC doesn't have to explain why forms were not transmitted. It makes it obvious that the jubilant perceives some sort of benefit from the inability to keep a lid on what's going on.
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I know you're trying to remain fair and balanced - which to me is impossible undertaking considering NASA are making unreasonable demands and wild claims- but which ones are of the proposed amendments are pure crap?
Others are pure crap
Manual transmission.
Saying hard originals are final shifts hacking from electronic to physical.
An RO can be intercepted and ordered or bribed into changing the original document after transmission. I think the risk of interference is way higher dealing with physical forms in this case as opposed to breaching VPNs and what have you
This is the elephant in the room. Electronic transmission was specifically created to cure this problem. Now, electronic transmission is reduced to color commentary. If any form is modified on the way, it will differ with the electronic record and override it. It also means IEBC doesn't have to explain why forms were not transmitted. It makes it obvious that the jubilant perceives some sort of benefit from the inability to keep a lid on what's going on.
Yep, and we can only read mischief in removing the electronic transmission. Please note that odinga has since found out that 1) only two kiems kits transmitted through the server that they l briefly looked at.
2) The rest of the kit transmitted and diverted by safcom to France. Those results have never come back.
We are dealing with very serious criminals
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I know you're trying to remain fair and balanced - which to me is impossible undertaking considering NASA are making unreasonable demands and wild claims- but which ones are of the proposed amendments are pure crap?
Others are pure crap
Manual transmission.
Saying hard originals are final shifts hacking from electronic to physical.
An RO can be intercepted and ordered or bribed into changing the original document after transmission. I think the risk of interference is way higher dealing with physical forms in this case as opposed to breaching VPNs and what have you
This is the elephant in the room. Electronic transmission was specifically created to cure this problem. Now, electronic transmission is reduced to color commentary. If any form is modified on the way, it will differ with the electronic record and override it. It also means IEBC doesn't have to explain why forms were not transmitted. It makes it obvious that the jubilant perceives some sort of benefit from the inability to keep a lid on what's going on.
Yep, and we can only read mischief in removing the electronic transmission. Please note that odinga has since found out that 1) only two kiems kits transmitted through the server that they l briefly looked at.
2) The rest of the kit transmitted and diverted by safcom to France. Those results have never come back.
We are dealing with very serious criminals
Bryan,
I don't believe that. As in IEBC - or rather people within it with the right permissions - does not need safaricom to divert its own data to wherever it wants. But I think we are in agreement something very shady happened with whatever data was coming from the KIEMS kit - otherwise we would have seen it by now. Given their behavior with the court order, you almost can't rule out anything, including the possibility that even the so called server access was pure bullshit(meaning they could have shared any crap from any server anywhere).
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vooke - this law shifts the burden of proof to the IEBC officials and not the culprits - which we know are the political parties.
There are two factors here - mistrust of NASA saboteurs and fear of intimidation/coercion by Jubilee state agents. For the first elections are done in broad daylight with media, agents & observers present. Party agents - including Jubilee's - take photos, copies, etc of the results. If they are cooked the PO or RO should simply refuse to append signature. If NASA had produced any originals to rebut the cooked forms the judges should have summoned the POs or ROs involved.
Find out why an IEBC officer did not sign a form - and punish them with that information only if culpable. Not a blanket presumption of guilt as the amendment does. Like the law of assault - which expressly exempts self-defence from fault - provide explicit protection for conscientious decisions not to sign bogus results. Of course should you find corrupt PO refused to sign the form for dubious reason - by say Jubilee agent forms showing no evidence of cooking - 5years is OK. Equally plain lack of signature or stamp should not invalidate results.
Robina,
What are the realistic chances of a PO being intimidated into signing a form 34A ,scanning and sending it while in the presence of agents,media,and other 3-5 polling clerks,not to mention at least one cop per class?
You are going to compromise everyone there to have your way. So there’s no excuse not to sign.
But it is easier to compromise everyone especially in strongholds.
That’s why I maintain sabotage risk is way too high as opposed to intimidation. Besides, intimidation is difficult to prove. Imagine 10 ROs going under only to surface a week later claiming their lives was threatened hence they couldn’t sign. Who? They was standing outside shouting at me
If the amendment is passed, saboteurs will do more than just soiling the form. The intimidators will have an uphill task of compromising everyone inside the station during counting
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This is the elephant in the room. Electronic transmission was specifically created to cure this problem. Now, electronic transmission is reduced to color commentary. If any form is modified on the way, it will differ with the electronic record and override it. It also means IEBC doesn't have to explain why forms were not transmitted. It makes it obvious that the jubilant perceives some sort of benefit from the inability to keep a lid on what's going on.
We have trust issues.
I suggest going forward all presidential candidates to set up private email addresses and the kits to be configured to send them the scans right from the kits.
Think about it, a PO can order a repeat counting exercise till all agents are satisfied. But the form 34A once prepared and signed is final in that only a court can challenge it. That’s why they pin a copy outside the polling station for all and sundry. It is no longer confidential or classified.
So, why not send it to candidates emails right away?
Gmail I think takes up to 15GB which is more than enough to mail 40K forms
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Kichwa
what she means by "independent" is she does not a Pundit. SHE won't support ineptitude and house clearly involved in malfeasance.
The day i see an independent judiciary is the day Kenya will be free from robbery by politicians. Some in SCOK are independent but how about the lower courts?
That is the debate, isn't it? You are convinced Jubilee's majority is illegitimate while am not. MPs can change laws and that is exactly their mandate. The minority needs to engage and ensure any amendments are reasonable and pass muster. For instance public participation or judicial and IEBC independence can be petitioned in court if breached. Sorry parliament is not illegitimate just because NASA cannibalized itself. If Ruto "bought" MPs :) that's a separate item. You can sue the bought individuals.
Independent about what? The moral equivalency you are trying to draw is infuriating. You cannot be independent or neutral to injustice. There is a reason why genuine democracies such as the US makes it very difficult for the majority to change the rules. The rethuglicans have a genuine majority in all three branches of government and yet they cannot wake up one morning and change the rules to favor them. They are having problems even changing Obamacare. The majority you have in the Kenyan parliament is not legitimate. Other than the rigging, democracy envisioned an independent legislature. This legislature is not independent. It is controlled by Ouru and Ruto who literally bought them. This is NOT a majority as envisioned by the concepts and principles of democracy and should not be treated as such. Its like treating "kalongolongo" (somebody translate please) as real food.