Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: Kadame7 on September 15, 2017, 08:27:13 PM
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Very interesting debate between Orengo and Kindiki. I was watching after looking at Orengo's twirrer to see his criticism of John Kerry that I found out about here, then I saw talks about his appearance on Larry Madowo's show and decided to take a listen. Apparently, it was yesterday. What I noticed is that from 46.33, Prof. Kindiki makes that argument about "no one has produced evidence of different results at the polling station from those announced by IEBC" and Orengo plainly contradicts him, claims they had numerous affidavits and copies of original form 34 As showing just that, A LOT OF IT, he says, but best of all, TABLED BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT.
Do you guys think he's lying about the documentation they presented at the SCOK? Remember it was being mocked for being thousands, too much to handle etc when it was presented. But you guys mock me for saying these forms may not be on the internet as photos but they were before the court. vooke even called me a blind guide leading the blind just today, claiming there was nothing like this in the petition. I expressed my thoughts that the focus on the process may have been a simple matter of strategy and Pundit laughed at me and concluded it's my faulty memory because everyone has looked for this info and none can find it.
So do you guys think Orengo just went on TV and lied about what they filed at the SCOK registry and served on each and every party in the petition?
Anyway, I'm glad to still be able to brag that my memory continues to faithfully serve me as my ever reliable tool, however fallible. :D I knew I didn't imagine this though I couldn't place it.
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They look for evidence to confirm their beliefs, not to expand their knowledge of the event. It's not likely they would pay attention to Orengo's claims or what he presents in the SCOK. vooke will even defer to jubilant beliefs, or just hang himself by his nutsack, before he would acknowledge the notion that SCOK could have arrived at its decision on the basis of evidence.
I will celebrate the independence of the SCOK without gloating over their misery.
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kadame,
I was at home and I watched about all the oral submissions. I never heard this. So without these forms and without any or missing their mention during the orals I rightly dismissed them.
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They look for evidence to confirm their beliefs, not to expand their knowledge of the event. It's not likely they would pay attention to Orengo's claims or what he presents in the SCOK. vooke will even defer to jubilant beliefs, or just hang himself by his nutsack, before he would acknowledge the notion that SCOK could have arrived at its decision on the basis of evidence.
I will celebrate the independence of the SCOK without gloating over their misery.
Why so bitter negro?
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My Dear Kadame
You did not invite me but I have gate crashed anyway: Always good to go when they start serving - they never notice! :D
Kindiki and many other Jubilee folks did not pay attention to the petition. They assumed that the judges will take bribes and the whole thing would go away. Sadly even the advocates acted in line with this belief.
I will help you with hints and nudges:
Read this:
[pdf]http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/assets/filemanager_uploads/A%20-%20Presidential%20Petitions%202017/Rulings/Scrutiny%20of%20forms%2034Bs.pdf[/pdf]
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kadame,
I was at home and I watched about all the oral submissions. I never heard this. So without these forms and without any or missing their mention during the orals I rightly dismissed them.
It was widely mentioned at the hearings.
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They look for evidence to confirm their beliefs, not to expand their knowledge of the event. It's not likely they would pay attention to Orengo's claims or what he presents in the SCOK. vooke will even defer to jubilant beliefs, or just hang himself by his nutsack, before he would acknowledge the notion that SCOK could have arrived at its decision on the basis of evidence.
I will celebrate the independence of the SCOK without gloating over their misery.
Yes, I understand. I'm not asking them to BELIEVE Orengo's evidence or rely on it: The claims here have been that this evidence SIMPLY DOESN'T EXIST. You can hear Kindiki repeating the same claim, though of course, I note he wasn't part of the petition group. The idea is NASA has not made claims or tabled evidence to show that results were changed. That's all I'm countering here. It's the standard Jubilant narrative about "it was all about process, not numbers, nobody has complained about the numbers", to summarise NASA claims as Jubilants see them.
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They look for evidence to confirm their beliefs, not to expand their knowledge of the event. It's not likely they would pay attention to Orengo's claims or what he presents in the SCOK. vooke will even defer to jubilant beliefs, or just hang himself by his nutsack, before he would acknowledge the notion that SCOK could have arrived at its decision on the basis of evidence.
I will celebrate the independence of the SCOK without gloating over their misery.
Why so bitter negro?
I am bitter about Larry Madowo treating the discussion as if he is discussing a socialite's fake tits. And your hypocrisy. For a while there you even had kadame and others(not including myself) fooled about your neutrality.
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They look for evidence to confirm their beliefs, not to expand their knowledge of the event. It's not likely they would pay attention to Orengo's claims or what he presents in the SCOK. vooke will even defer to jubilant beliefs, or just hang himself by his nutsack, before he would acknowledge the notion that SCOK could have arrived at its decision on the basis of evidence.
I will celebrate the independence of the SCOK without gloating over their misery.
Why so bitter negro?
I am bitter about Larry Madowo treating the discussion as if he is discussing a socialite's fake tits. And your hypocrisy. For a while there you even had kadame and others(not including myself) fooled about your neutrality.
I'm Larry 'vooke' Madowo
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kadame,
I was at home and I watched about all the oral submissions. I never heard this. So without these forms and without any or missing their mention during the orals I rightly dismissed them.
It was widely mentioned at the hearings.
Omorlo,
Mention any of Babu's lawyers who mentioned it and I will share the clip here. I swear it was never mentioned
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They look for evidence to confirm their beliefs, not to expand their knowledge of the event. It's not likely they would pay attention to Orengo's claims or what he presents in the SCOK. vooke will even defer to jubilant beliefs, or just hang himself by his nutsack, before he would acknowledge the notion that SCOK could have arrived at its decision on the basis of evidence.
I will celebrate the independence of the SCOK without gloating over their misery.
Yes, I understand. I'm not asking them to BELIEVE Orengo's evidence or rely on it: The claims here are that this evidence SIMPLY DOESN'T EXIST. You can hear Kindiki repeating the claim, though of course, I note he wasn't part of the petition group. The idea is NASA has not made claims or tabled evidence to show that results were changed. That's all I'm countering here. It's the standard Jubilant narrative about "it was all about process, not numbers", to summarise NASA claims as Jubilants see them.
Got ya. I just think it's possible to completely shield yourself from unpleasant facts and part of that involves denialism. You could even share video of Uhuru bribing and threatening Chiloba to make sure the outcome is favorable and it will not surprise me to see someone bending over backwards to explain it away.
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James Orengo
[pdf]http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/assets/filemanager_uploads/A%20-%20Presidential%20Petitions%202017/Rulings/Registrar%20Scrutiny%20Report%20Pursuant%20to%20the%20Orders%20of%20the%20Supreme%20Court%20of%20Kenya%2029082017.pdf[/pdf]
kadame,
I was at home and I watched about all the oral submissions. I never heard this. So without these forms and without any or missing their mention during the orals I rightly dismissed them.
It was widely mentioned at the hearings.
Omorlo,
Mention any of Babu's lawyers who mentioned it and I will share the clip here. I swear it was never mentioned
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Let me know your verdict :D :D :D :D
You know it is really shameful that Kindiki can call himself a professor, sit in court daily and come out unaware that Forms 34A came up.
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Let me know your verdict :D :D :D :D
Monday morning
He takes the first 40min. You may want to help me by pointing out where
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kadame,
I was at home and I watched about all the oral submissions. I never heard this. So without these forms and without any or missing their mention during the orals I rightly dismissed them.
It was widely mentioned at the hearings.
Omollo
Most neurologists will tell you that people listen to answer not to comprehend whats being said. So even if he listened to the whole thing, he was only looking for what he wanted to hear.
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Let me know your verdict :D :D :D :D
You know it is really shameful that Kindiki can call himself a professor, sit in court daily and come out unaware that Forms 34A came up.
Their position is that form 34 As were scrutinized only for "minor errors" and discrepancies between them and form 34 Bs, but that NASA did not produce alternative copies from their own agents and others to show different results/documents than those presented by IEBC. They were like, that's the sole indicator for rigging and everything else is DOA. That only one copy of each result exists, basically, and the debate is only that mistakes were in the entering, tallying etc. Orengo is saying that they DID produce these alternative copies and tabled them before the court along with the sworn testimony of agents. He says they focused on 34 Bs due to the very short time. Yes, I'll brag again and say, when I said these decisions were matters of strategy, I wasn't wrong. :D
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There was not enough time during the oral argument to fully describe each and every evidence submitted and marked into the record. The petitioners emphasized in their oral argument what they believed needed further elaboration and explanation. This case was already decided. It was amazing to hear Kindiki argue that the president had full powers and was no longer interim because of the nullification of the elections. That is why the president was bragging that he is a sitting president. The constitution clearly makes him an interim president from the date of general elections until he is sworn in. Which part of that is so hard to understand.
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Just put the evidence here.Otherwise you're asking us to trust Orengo.we don't need a lot of them..we need just maybe 10 or 20.. otherwise whatever orengo gave..iebc n jubilee responded and there was no such evidence adduced.The petition is still online.Otherwise we wait for scok wakora judgement where they claim the process was fault but to best of my recollection nobody has impugne the content of the forms
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Just put the evidence here.Otherwise you're asking us to trust Orengo.
I'm not askin you to believe Orengo's evidence. I'm not even asking that you admit these NASA copies were not forgeries themselves, seeing as you haven't even seen them. But do you doubt what he says about filing docs purporting to be these copies?
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It simple.we have vibrant social media and iebc portal...if election was massively rigged...any nyaboke or moraa would have easily compared what she saw in some polling station..and what iebc have.I an yet to see one such single evidence.All we are hearing is evidence as powerful as this is hidden in middle of nasa evidence.Why deploy agents if not to produce such evidence.No rigging took place.SCOk went for form instead of substance..and I agree with njoki n Ojwang strong dissent.I. pity someone like Lenaola. Coz he is young but is career is over.
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Read the Regitsrar's report point number 34.
I assume ALL of you read the affidavits :D He who did not can speak up and I will try to point to the affidavit.
Here is how it worked:
NASA was NOT engaged in recounts and Form 34A is NOT a recount. 4000 Form 34A represent close to 3 million votes. It is enough ton show a sample (and here you can ask Pundit to calculate what % 3M votes represent).
The focus then turned to Form 34B where ALL were examined.
For details of how the Majority interpreted the errors (unless you want Omollosque Opinion) wait for the judgment.
It is however clear that the votes that could not be accounted for in form 34A far exceed the difference between Uhuru and Raila. The difference in 34B is over 5 million votes.
I am bored with all this as I paid 100% attention and for me it is history. Jubilee people are slow and will take time to get simple facts in their heads. BUT good luck
My last contribution. Have to sleep early Kanisani (SDA Fanatic Kesho)
Let me know your verdict :D :D :D :D
You know it is really shameful that Kindiki can call himself a professor, sit in court daily and come out unaware that Forms 34A came up.
Their position is that form 34 As were scrutinized only for "minor errors" and discrepancies between them and form 34 Bs, but that NASA did not produce alternative copies from their own agents and others to show different results/documents than those presented by IEBC. They were like, that's the sole indicator for rigging and everything else is DOA. That only one copy of each result exists, basically, and the debate is only that mistakes were in the entering, tallying etc. Orengo is saying that they DID produce these alternative copies and tabled them before the court along with the sworn testimony of agents. He says they focused on 34 Bs due to the very short time. Yes, I'll brag again and say, when I said these decisions were matters of strategy, I wasn't wrong. :D
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You are impervious!
Define RIGGING and then we proceed from there.
It simple.we have vibrant social media and iebc portal...if election was massively rigged...any nyaboke or moraa would have easily compared what she saw in some polling station..and what iebc have.I an yet to see one such single evidence.All we are hearing is evidence as powerful as this is hidden in middle of nasa evidence.Why deploy agents if not to produce such evidence.No rigging took place.SCOk went for form instead of substance..and I agree with njoki n Ojwang strong dissent.
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This issue received less than negligible mention in the written submission
93. On the contrary Form 34A submitted by the Petitioners’ agent in respect of Getare Tea Buying Centre Polling Station Number 1 of2 in Nyari Bari Masaba Constituency has no corresponding reflection in Form 34B
94. In addition in Nyabieyo Primary School Polling Station; Nyanchenge Primary polling station number 1 of 2 in Bobasi Constituency; Cheptoroi polling station 2 of 3 within Njoro Constituency in Nakuru County; Kaptembwo Primary polling station number 4 of 8 within Nakuru Town West Constituency; Kiyanka Primary polling station number 2 of 2 within Igembe South Constituency; Nkiriana polling station number 1 of 2 within Igembe North Constituency; Dandora III City Council Hall polling station number 9 of 9 within Embakasi North Constituency; Jetview polling station and Mulolongo polling station both in Mavoko Constituency; Gem Constituency; Turkana Central Constituency; Bomet Central Constituency; Turbo Constituency all show a substantive deduction of votes from the Petitioners.
http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/assets/filemanager_uploads/A%20-%20Presidential%20Petitions%202017/amicus/Petitioners%20Written%20Submissions.pdf
So the claim of thousands of forms 34A directly obtained by NASWA agents,and that was altered is still unverified.
Quite possible Jimmy was bluffing
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This issue received less than negligible mention in the written submission
93. On the contrary Form 34A submitted by the Petitioners’ agent in respect of Getare Tea Buying Centre Polling Station Number 1 of2 in Nyari Bari Masaba Constituency has no corresponding reflection in Form 34B
94. In addition in Nyabieyo Primary School Polling Station; Nyanchenge Primary polling station number 1 of 2 in Bobasi Constituency; Cheptoroi polling station 2 of 3 within Njoro Constituency in Nakuru County; Kaptembwo Primary polling station number 4 of 8 within Nakuru Town West Constituency; Kiyanka Primary polling station number 2 of 2 within Igembe South Constituency; Nkiriana polling station number 1 of 2 within Igembe North Constituency; Dandora III City Council Hall polling station number 9 of 9 within Embakasi North Constituency; Jetview polling station and Mulolongo polling station both in Mavoko Constituency; Gem Constituency; Turkana Central Constituency; Bomet Central Constituency; Turbo Constituency all show a substantive deduction of votes from the Petitioners.
http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/assets/filemanager_uploads/A%20-%20Presidential%20Petitions%202017/amicus/Petitioners%20Written%20Submissions.pdf
So the claim of thousands of forms 34A directly obtained by NASWA agents,and that was altered is still unverified.
Quite possible Jimmy was bluffing
Got it. Orengo on TV claimed he filed and served Jubilee and IEBC docs he never filed and served. Because he did not argue the point in his submissions. We understand each other.
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Read the Regitsrar's report point number 34.
I assume ALL of you read the affidavits :D He who did not can speak up and I will try to point to the affidavit.
Here is how it worked:
NASA was NOT engaged in recounts and Form 34A is NOT a recount. 4000 Form 34A represent close to 3 million votes. It is enough ton show a sample (and here you can ask Pundit to calculate what % 3M votes represent).
The focus then turned to Form 34B where ALL were examined.
For details of how the Majority interpreted the errors (unless you want Omollosque Opinion) wait for the judgment.
It is however clear that the votes that could not be accounted for in form 34A far exceed the difference between Uhuru and Raila. The difference in 34B is over 5 million votes.
I am bored with all this as I paid 100% attention and for me it is history. Jubilee people are slow and will take time to get simple facts in their heads. BUT good luck
My last contribution. Have to sleep early Kanisani (SDA Fanatic Kesho)
Let me know your verdict :D :D :D :D
You know it is really shameful that Kindiki can call himself a professor, sit in court daily and come out unaware that Forms 34A came up.
Their position is that form 34 As were scrutinized only for "minor errors" and discrepancies between them and form 34 Bs, but that NASA did not produce alternative copies from their own agents and others to show different results/documents than those presented by IEBC. They were like, that's the sole indicator for rigging and everything else is DOA. That only one copy of each result exists, basically, and the debate is only that mistakes were in the entering, tallying etc. Orengo is saying that they DID produce these alternative copies and tabled them before the court along with the sworn testimony of agents. He says they focused on 34 Bs due to the very short time. Yes, I'll brag again and say, when I said these decisions were matters of strategy, I wasn't wrong. :D
The scrutiny involved documents supplied by IEBC during the petition, and not NASWA agents which are the subject of the thread. NASWA agents provided next to nothing that was at variance with IEBC scans
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Read the Regitsrar's report point number 34.
I assume ALL of you read the affidavits :D He who did not can speak up and I will try to point to the affidavit.
Here is how it worked:
NASA was NOT engaged in recounts and Form 34A is NOT a recount. 4000 Form 34A represent close to 3 million votes. It is enough ton show a sample (and here you can ask Pundit to calculate what % 3M votes represent).
The focus then turned to Form 34B where ALL were examined.
For details of how the Majority interpreted the errors (unless you want Omollosque Opinion) wait for the judgment.
It is however clear that the votes that could not be accounted for in form 34A far exceed the difference between Uhuru and Raila. The difference in 34B is over 5 million votes.
I am bored with all this as I paid 100% attention and for me it is history. Jubilee people are slow and will take time to get simple facts in their heads. BUT good luck
My last contribution. Have to sleep early Kanisani (SDA Fanatic Kesho)
Let me know your verdict :D :D :D :D
You know it is really shameful that Kindiki can call himself a professor, sit in court daily and come out unaware that Forms 34A came up.
Their position is that form 34 As were scrutinized only for "minor errors" and discrepancies between them and form 34 Bs, but that NASA did not produce alternative copies from their own agents and others to show different results/documents than those presented by IEBC. They were like, that's the sole indicator for rigging and everything else is DOA. That only one copy of each result exists, basically, and the debate is only that mistakes were in the entering, tallying etc. Orengo is saying that they DID produce these alternative copies and tabled them before the court along with the sworn testimony of agents. He says they focused on 34 Bs due to the very short time. Yes, I'll brag again and say, when I said these decisions were matters of strategy, I wasn't wrong. :D
Omollo, they admit all that. They just claim it was scrutiny based on forms IEBC provided only. Orengo is saying they presented alternative docs to the court from agents. vooke and Pundit say he is lying.
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This issue received less than negligible mention in the written submission
93. On the contrary Form 34A submitted by the Petitioners’ agent in respect of Getare Tea Buying Centre Polling Station Number 1 of2 in Nyari Bari Masaba Constituency has no corresponding reflection in Form 34B
94. In addition in Nyabieyo Primary School Polling Station; Nyanchenge Primary polling station number 1 of 2 in Bobasi Constituency; Cheptoroi polling station 2 of 3 within Njoro Constituency in Nakuru County; Kaptembwo Primary polling station number 4 of 8 within Nakuru Town West Constituency; Kiyanka Primary polling station number 2 of 2 within Igembe South Constituency; Nkiriana polling station number 1 of 2 within Igembe North Constituency; Dandora III City Council Hall polling station number 9 of 9 within Embakasi North Constituency; Jetview polling station and Mulolongo polling station both in Mavoko Constituency; Gem Constituency; Turkana Central Constituency; Bomet Central Constituency; Turbo Constituency all show a substantive deduction of votes from the Petitioners.
http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/assets/filemanager_uploads/A%20-%20Presidential%20Petitions%202017/amicus/Petitioners%20Written%20Submissions.pdf
So the claim of thousands of forms 34A directly obtained by NASWA agents,and that was altered is still unverified.
Quite possible Jimmy was bluffing
Got it. Orengo on TV claimed he filed and served Jubilee and IEBC docs he never filed and served. Because he did not argue the point in his submissions. We understand each other.
It is not in the written submissions nor in the oral. Your smoking gun is a subsequent quote in a show. That's more relevant that the actual documents filed in court. Ok
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This issue received less than negligible mention in the written submission
93. On the contrary Form 34A submitted by the Petitioners’ agent in respect of Getare Tea Buying Centre Polling Station Number 1 of2 in Nyari Bari Masaba Constituency has no corresponding reflection in Form 34B
94. In addition in Nyabieyo Primary School Polling Station; Nyanchenge Primary polling station number 1 of 2 in Bobasi Constituency; Cheptoroi polling station 2 of 3 within Njoro Constituency in Nakuru County; Kaptembwo Primary polling station number 4 of 8 within Nakuru Town West Constituency; Kiyanka Primary polling station number 2 of 2 within Igembe South Constituency; Nkiriana polling station number 1 of 2 within Igembe North Constituency; Dandora III City Council Hall polling station number 9 of 9 within Embakasi North Constituency; Jetview polling station and Mulolongo polling station both in Mavoko Constituency; Gem Constituency; Turkana Central Constituency; Bomet Central Constituency; Turbo Constituency all show a substantive deduction of votes from the Petitioners.
http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/assets/filemanager_uploads/A%20-%20Presidential%20Petitions%202017/amicus/Petitioners%20Written%20Submissions.pdf
So the claim of thousands of forms 34A directly obtained by NASWA agents,and that was altered is still unverified.
Quite possible Jimmy was bluffing
Got it. Orengo on TV claimed he filed and served Jubilee and IEBC docs he never filed and served. Because he did not argue the point in his submissions. We understand each other.
It is not in the written submissions nor in the oral. Your smoking gun is a subsequent quote in a show. That's more relevant that the actual documents filed in court. Ok
What part of strategy do you not get? Orengo was lead counsel of the petitioner, he's the one that filed the docs and the one that decided with others on strategy. It's not like he is an Othorong'ong'o on the streets. You're basically saying he did not file docs he says he filed and is plain lying about something Ahmednassir, Ngatia, PLO, Muite and all can just embarrass him in a tweet for. What contradiction do you see between the filing these docs and those submissions? You seem to be asking me to decide which one I believe like I can only choose one. And submissions are not the only "actual documents in court"...have you gone through the thousands of documents presented at the registry?
Lastly, do you know the meaning of a smoking gun? Again, as I said to Pundit, no one is asking you to accept that such docs are authentic...just wondered if you still believed they were non-existent after Orengo rebuffed this idea re Kindiki on TV yesterday. I got my answer, that's all.
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Show me the evidence.Orengo this or that is like reading Omollo online farts.
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Listening to this argument one can clearly present a case study of how people think when th re is clear facts. It's like watching Trump. The guy makes up his mind and looks for facts supporting evidence. And even when there's are no facts, he still sticks to his notion of evidence. Clearly a case of narcissistic behaviors.
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Let me know your verdict :D :D :D :D
You know it is really shameful that Kindiki can call himself a professor, sit in court daily and come out unaware that Forms 34A came up.
Their position is that form 34 As were scrutinized only for "minor errors" and discrepancies between them and form 34 Bs, but that NASA did not produce alternative copies from their own agents and others to show different results/documents than those presented by IEBC. They were like, that's the sole indicator for rigging and everything else is DOA. That only one copy of each result exists, basically, and the debate is only that mistakes were in the entering, tallying etc. Orengo is saying that they DID produce these alternative copies and tabled them before the court along with the sworn testimony of agents. He says they focused on 34 Bs due to the very short time. Yes, I'll brag again and say, when I said these decisions were matters of strategy, I wasn't wrong. :D
If it counts for something, I understand why you are bragging. Because I also understand what you mean when you say what was canvassed was a matter of strategy. A winning strategy. Where it mattered.
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This issue received less than negligible mention in the written submission
93. On the contrary Form 34A submitted by the Petitioners’ agent in respect of Getare Tea Buying Centre Polling Station Number 1 of2 in Nyari Bari Masaba Constituency has no corresponding reflection in Form 34B
94. In addition in Nyabieyo Primary School Polling Station; Nyanchenge Primary polling station number 1 of 2 in Bobasi Constituency; Cheptoroi polling station 2 of 3 within Njoro Constituency in Nakuru County; Kaptembwo Primary polling station number 4 of 8 within Nakuru Town West Constituency; Kiyanka Primary polling station number 2 of 2 within Igembe South Constituency; Nkiriana polling station number 1 of 2 within Igembe North Constituency; Dandora III City Council Hall polling station number 9 of 9 within Embakasi North Constituency; Jetview polling station and Mulolongo polling station both in Mavoko Constituency; Gem Constituency; Turkana Central Constituency; Bomet Central Constituency; Turbo Constituency all show a substantive deduction of votes from the Petitioners.
http://www.judiciary.go.ke/portal/assets/filemanager_uploads/A%20-%20Presidential%20Petitions%202017/amicus/Petitioners%20Written%20Submissions.pdf
So the claim of thousands of forms 34A directly obtained by NASWA agents,and that was altered is still unverified.
Quite possible Jimmy was bluffing
Got it. Orengo on TV claimed he filed and served Jubilee and IEBC docs he never filed and served. Because he did not argue the point in his submissions. We understand each other.
It is not in the written submissions nor in the oral. Your smoking gun is a subsequent quote in a show. That's more relevant that the actual documents filed in court. Ok
What part of strategy do you not get? Orengo was lead counsel of the petitioner, he's the one that filed the docs and the one that decided with others on strategy. It's not like he is an Othorong'ong'o on the streets. You're basically saying he did not file docs he says he filed and is plain lying about something Ahmednassir, Ngatia, PLO, Muite and all can just embarrass him in a tweet for. What contradiction do you see between the filing these docs and those submissions? You seem to be asking me to decide which one I believe like I can only choose one. And submissions are not the only "actual documents in court"...have you gone through the thousands of documents presented at the registry?
Lastly, do you know the meaning of a smoking gun? Again, as I said to Pundit, no one is asking you to accept that such docs are authentic...just wondered if you still believed they were non-existent after Orengo rebuffed this idea re Kindiki on TV yesterday. I got my answer, that's all.
Strategy theory is nonsensical
Why would they make copies of thousands of these documents and present them in court only to fail mentioning them both in the orals and written submissions in the first place? There simply were none save for the 20 or so
NASWA deployed agents,and I estimated they did so in less than half of the polling stations,who sent both copies and independent scans. Next t nil of these were altered. So they added zero value to their case and ended up never being mentioned precisely because of that.
Why would I believe they was existent,because Jimmy said long after the case, and nobody is rebuffing him?
I'm not aksin you to revise your beliefs. I really don't care what you believe;just keep on scraping the bottom of the barrel, you may save face 8)
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Listening to this argument one can clearly present a case study of how people think when th re is clear facts. It's like watching Trump. The guy makes up his mind and looks for facts supporting evidence. And even when there's are no facts, he still sticks to his notion of evidence. Clearly a case of narcissistic behaviors.
Damn right,
Someone imagined thousands of independently collected forms 34A was altered,and this was mentioned in court. They have been busy looking for 'facts supporting evidence'. Neither Oral submissions nor written submissions will stand in their way
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Jubilidiots are a hilarious bunch. My reading of this is as follows: Orengo discovers that there are fake 1k bob notes in circulation and all available evidence shows that they are coming from cbk vaults. He runs to court claiming that there are fake currency notes coming out of cbk. Maraga sends the registrar to inspect the currency in the vaults and confirms that some are missing serial numbers, others missing the chief cashier's signature. Some even have juha kalulu portraits! She reports this to maraga who then agrees with Orengo that indeed there are fake 1k bob notes in the cbk vaults.
Jubilidiots refuse to accept this conclusion and insist that Orengo (a basic raia) shows them some real 1k bob notes that prove that the cbk notes are indeed fake.
Jesus Christ.
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This case was already litigated and we know who won.
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Strategy theory is nonsensical
Why would they make copies of thousands of these documents and present them in court only to fail mentioning them both in the orals and written submissions in the first place? There simply were none save for the 20 or so
NASWA deployed agents,and I estimated they did so in less than half of the polling stations,who sent both copies and independent scans. Next t nil of these were altered. So they added zero value to their case and ended up never being mentioned precisely because of that.
Why would I believe they was existent,because Jimmy said long after the case, and nobody is rebuffing him?
I'm not aksin you to revise your beliefs. I really don't care what you believe;just keep on scraping the bottom of the barrel, you may save face 8)
Wow, lol. That was a quick and mighty turn to rudeness wasnt it? Its ok pastor. Dont mess your christianity over an online debate.
Now, which 20 or so? How did you come up with that number? The debate on nipate has been you all have not seen even one so they can't possibly exist.
About face-saving, sure coz you think I need that. I'm not as desperate to be proven right, I'm afraid. Its the easiest thing in the world for me to say, oops! I didn't know. Kumbe! So don't you worry about my face :D. She and I will be alright whatever arguments we win or lose.
But it's still interesting that "face-saving" should come from the one claiming to know more about the petition docs than the counsels involved because you read some submissions online. And here you say, like a "boss", ati the strategy "theory" is nonsense. No wonder Jubilee lost. Did you not hear the guy who made the submissions say that they DECIDED to concentrate on "CONSTITUENCY results" due to the constrains of time?
Orengo and company filed EVERYTHING not knowing which if ANY of their requests would be granted. They found the court favourable and got access to the "vaults" of IEBC itself. They spent a good deal of their time and energy finding the many glaring and obvious errors in the documents already admitted by the IEBC itself, chosing to rely on these as they COULD NOT BE DISPUTED rather than get into endless debates about which documents, theirs or IEBC's, were genuine/forged. I remember Muite saying:They signed! Let them bring their agents here to tesify that these are fake and not their signatures.
Anyway, I got my answer: Orengo lied. If you read my OP, that's all I asked. The bitterness is therefore unnecessary. Thanks for answering: both the OP and the 20 docs Orengo has (in advance).
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Listening to this argument one can clearly present a case study of how people think when th re is clear facts. It's like watching Trump. The guy makes up his mind and looks for facts supporting evidence. And even when there's are no facts, he still sticks to his notion of evidence. Clearly a case of narcissistic behaviors.
Damn right,
Someone imagined thousands of independently collected forms 34A was altered,and this was mentioned in court. They have been busy looking for 'facts supporting evidence'. Neither Oral submissions nor written submissions will stand in their way
Please. I didnt bother looking. I knew I read it somewhere, never claimed I heard it in court, just the opposite in fact. So the problem is the idea there are "thousands" such docs not that they exist. Got it.
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Strategy theory is nonsensical
Why would they make copies of thousands of these documents and present them in court only to fail mentioning them both in the orals and written submissions in the first place? There simply were none save for the 20 or so
NASWA deployed agents,and I estimated they did so in less than half of the polling stations,who sent both copies and independent scans. Next t nil of these were altered. So they added zero value to their case and ended up never being mentioned precisely because of that.
Why would I believe they was existent,because Jimmy said long after the case, and nobody is rebuffing him?
I'm not aksin you to revise your beliefs. I really don't care what you believe;just keep on scraping the bottom of the barrel, you may save face 8)
Wow, lol. That was a quick and mighty turn to rudeness wasnt it? Its ok pastor. Dont mess your christianity over an online debate.
Now, which 20 or so? How did you come up with that number? The debate on nipate has been you all have not seen even one so they can't possibly exist.
About face-saving, sure coz you think I need that. I'm not as desperate to be proven right, I'm afraid. Its the easiest thing in the world for me to say, oops! I didn't know. Kumbe! So don't you worry about my face :D. She and I will be alright whatever arguments we win or lose.
But it's still interesting that "face-saving" should come from the one claiming to know more about the petition docs than the counsels involved because you read some submissions online. And here you say, like a "boss", ati the strategy "theory" is nonsense. No wonder Jubilee lost. Did you not hear the guy who made the submissions say that they DECIDED to concentrate on "CONSTITUENCY results" due to the constrains of time?
Orengo and company filed EVERYTHING not knowing which if ANY of their requests would be granted. They found the court favourable and got access to the "vaults" of IEBC itself. They spent a good deal of their time and energy finding the many glaring and obvious errors in the documents already admitted by the IEBC itself, chosing to rely on these as they COULD NOT BE DISPUTED rather than get into endless debates about which documents, theirs or IEBC's, were genuine/forged. I remember Muite saying:They signed! Let them bring their agents here to tesify that these are fake and not their signatures.
Anyway, I got my answer: Orengo lied. If you read my OP, that's all I asked. The bitterness is therefore unnecessary. Thanks for answering: both the OP and the 20 docs Orengo has (in advance).
Just about every respondents' lawyer asked for this and none was forthcoming.
Strategy remains pure nonsense because there's every reason to include these documents and no reason to omit them. And Nyangasi did inject them in his affidavit,and only came to about 20.
Contigent filing? You probably know better, can you file stuff totally not referenced to in the petition,written submissions and affidavits and then introduce it as need arises?
I have not claimed to know more than Orengo but I clearly recall what he said. It is along this reasoning we wondered why hacking theory was conspicuously missing from the Petition and its submissions.
You probably heard of these documents outside the court just as server logs. But NASWA released the server logs and they was debunked. Nobody is saying the documents are not there,we just wonder how such incriminating evidence was kept off the public,kept off the submissions and petition,and conclude it is not there
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Just about every respondents' lawyer asked for this and none was forthcoming.
Strategy remains pure nonsense because there's every reason to include these documents and no reason to omit them. And Nyangasi did inject them in his affidavit,and only came to about 20.
Contigent filing? You probably know better, can you file stuff totally not referenced to in the petition,written submissions and affidavits and then introduce it as need arises?
I have not claimed to know more than Orengo but I clearly recall what he said. It is along this reasoning we wondered why hacking theory was conspicuously missing from the Petition and its submissions.
You probably heard of these documents outside the court just as server logs. But NASWA released the server logs and they was debunked. Nobody is saying the documents are not there,we just wonder how such incriminating evidence was kept off the public,kept off the submissions and petition,and conclude it is not there
Well, I have seen here more than once a challenge to produce just one photo, just ten, that's all you need etc. Same as Kindiki's claim that not even one person swore an affidavit, etc etc. This is why I kept asking if you guys doubt they exist after what Orengo said. For if they were there, even the 20 you mention, which if I'm understanding you WERE mentioned, then the challenge for just one or a few photos wouldnt make sense. After all, even these are not floating around on the web in photo form.
Apparently this whole time, you only doubted that there were many, not that they were there. Understood. But this is not what I read on this board severally.
As for me, I saw a few videos of the proceedings and read the scrutiny and ICT reports to decide my stance on this case. I never claimed that this particularly was mentioned in court, I only saw maybe 2 hours of video of the proceedings, tops. But I knew I read this somewhere and did not imagine it, and was simply delighted to hear that confirmed by a counsel.
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Just about every respondents' lawyer asked for this and none was forthcoming.
Strategy remains pure nonsense because there's every reason to include these documents and no reason to omit them. And Nyangasi did inject them in his affidavit,and only came to about 20.
Contigent filing? You probably know better, can you file stuff totally not referenced to in the petition,written submissions and affidavits and then introduce it as need arises?
I have not claimed to know more than Orengo but I clearly recall what he said. It is along this reasoning we wondered why hacking theory was conspicuously missing from the Petition and its submissions.
You probably heard of these documents outside the court just as server logs. But NASWA released the server logs and they was debunked. Nobody is saying the documents are not there,we just wonder how such incriminating evidence was kept off the public,kept off the submissions and petition,and conclude it is not there
Well, I have seen here more than once a challenge to produce just one photo, just ten, that's all you need etc. Same as Kindiki's claim that not even one person swore an affidavit, etc etc. This is why I kept asking if you guys doubt they exist after what Orengo said. For if they were there, even the 20 you mention, which if I'm understanding you WERE mentioned, then the challenge for just one or a few photos wouldnt make sense. After all, even these are not floating around on the web in photo form.
Apparently this whole time, you only doubted that there were many, not that they were there. Understood. But this is not what I read on this board severally.
As for me, I saw a few videos of the proceedings and read the scrutiny and ICT reports to decide my stance on this case. I never claimed that this particularly was mentioned in court, I only saw maybe 2 hours of video of the proceedings, tops. But I knew I read this somewhere and did not imagine it, and was simply delighted to hear that confirmed by a counsel.
Cool.
Before the petition NASWA claimed there was thousands of these forms mutilated and altered,and they had proof,and JUBILEE's challenge was show us some. They never did.
When Kindiki asked this question,Orengo responded that there was MANY in court but we find very few. MANY is relative but out of 40K forms,I'd think it's unreasonable to call tens of them many.
Given NASWA charges IEBC with altering results in favor of Uhunye,I'd have expected every one of these documents to count.
In my opinion, it is extreme stupidity cooking forms 34A that have been pinned to polling station and was shared to party agents. Like it's so easy to catch IEBC. So I really feel that even IF IEBC rigged Uhunye in,that was not one of the means. So I'm naturally skeptical,which is not helped by absence of these documents.
PS
I think NASWA independently collected some 5K forms 34A as per some affidavit I have read. Initially,I estimated they did about 15-20K
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Contigent filing? You probably know better, can you file stuff totally not referenced to in the petition,written submissions and affidavits and then introduce it as need arises?
I guess you introduced this a bit later, didnt see it: If Orengo filed docs Im sure they are mentioned/attached to affidavits. But there is no rule about what you should mention in submissions. Submissions are your own arguments and you can emohasize and even ignore things as you see fit for your argument. But you said these were mentioned in an affidavit somewhere, but they were few. Orengo doesnt have to mention them in the submissions if he doesnt think they are necessary to make his case.
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Convoluted logic. So he did present that evidence (not see it personally) but it was just a filler?
Orengo doesnt have to mention them in the submissions if he doesnt think they are necessary to make his case.
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Convoluted logic. So he did present that evidence (not see it personally) but it was just a filler?
Orengo doesnt have to mention them in the submissions if he doesnt think they are necessary to make his case.
You were asking for just 10 yesterday. Will 20 do? Yes, no one HAS to say any particular thing in their submissions. But Ive scanned it in vooke's link and see they mentioned it in passing. My "convoluted logic" was simply that if IEBC provided their own docs and these alone proved my point, I wouldnt feel it necessary to emphasize disputed copies from agents. Maybe thats dumb to you, its not to me.
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Yes I saw Vooke claims there are 10 or couple. I'd love to see them. I don't mean human errors - where Uhuru or Raila or Dida get added or reduced some votes...according to IEBC..the total of those errors they admitted were around 1,000 votes. Those are random human errors. What we are looking for is for you to bring evidence that say Nyamira or Kisii was rigged as you strongly suspect.
You were asking for just 10 yesterday. Will 20 do? Yes, no one HAS to say any particular thing in their submissions. But Ive scanned it in vooke's link and see they mentioned it in passing. My "convoluted logic" was simply that if IEBC provided their own docs and these alone proved my point, I wouldnt feel it necessary to emphasize disputed copies from agents. Maybe thats dumb to you, its not to me.
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Yes I saw Vooke claims there are 10 or couple. I'd love to see them. I don't mean human errors - where Uhuru or Raila or Dida get added or reduced some votes...according to IEBC..the total of those errors they admitted were around 1,000 votes. Those are random human errors. What we are looking for is for you to bring evidence that say Nyamira or Kisii was rigged as you strongly suspect.
You were asking for just 10 yesterday. Will 20 do? Yes, no one HAS to say any particular thing in their submissions. But Ive scanned it in vooke's link and see they mentioned it in passing. My "convoluted logic" was simply that if IEBC provided their own docs and these alone proved my point, I wouldnt feel it necessary to emphasize disputed copies from agents. Maybe thats dumb to you, its not to me.
Pundit, how would different forms than those presented amount to simple "human errors"? If you have two different forms both purporting to be the one form 34A of polling station X, there's no room for human errors. One of them is fake. Or both. Fake isn't simple, clerical or as you say "human" errors, its human interference. What you are talking about is difference in mathematics, not different forms.
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Totally agree. That evidence I haven't seen. I am talking about difference btw text-in data, form 34A and form 34B - transcription errors. I am yet to see this allegation that NASA agent form 34A or 34B - is different from IEBC 34A or 34B.
Pundit, how would different forms than those presented amount to simple "human errors"? If you have two different forms both purporting to be the one form 34A of polling station X, there's no room for human errors. One of them is fake. Or both. Fake isn't simple, clerical or as you say "human" errors, its human interference. What you are talking about is difference in mathematics, not different forms.
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This case was already litigated and we know who won.
Wasn't it. But I am not one quibble about how people deal with grief.
On a different note, if I were so inclined, I would see myself as an SDA. They do not suffer crooks and thugs gladly.
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...and there is a reason why we have a supreme court otherwise the litigations would continue to ad nauseam.
This case was already litigated and we know who won.
Wasn't it. But I am not one quibble about how people deal with grief.
On a different note, if I were so inclined, I would see myself as an SDA. They do not suffer crooks and thugs gladly.
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Let's hope the justices don't wear kid gloves for us this time... with vague details about stuffing. If Uhuru rigged just tell us in plain English - in station X, Uhuru's votes were 200 but there is a forgery saying 600. We want to know this.
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Where a form lacks;
1. The signature of the Returning Officer
2. security features
3. accuracy by misrepresenting the figures from Form 34A
It is by law a forgery whose contents are null and void.
The problem with Jubilee is they have their own case which for some reason they failed to present. They concentrated on a non existent case. May be it is because every time they tried to respond to the NASA case the failed miserably and exposed themselves.
Pundit familiarize yourself with Raila's petition and pay heed to the pleadings. If you find that he made a claim and failed to prove it, wake me up. Otherwise this recount propaganda is going nowhere. Uhuru did not make an application for a recount (perhaps he was expecting NASA to do so). Uhuru Kenyatta OPPOSED the application to review Forms 34 in its entirety. His agents did not record an significant objections to the findings of the Registrar.
Totally agree. That evidence I haven't seen. I am talking about difference btw text-in data, form 34A and form 34B - transcription errors. I am yet to see this allegation that NASA agent form 34A or 34B - is different from IEBC 34A or 34B.
Pundit, how would different forms than those presented amount to simple "human errors"? If you have two different forms both purporting to be the one form 34A of polling station X, there's no room for human errors. One of them is fake. Or both. Fake isn't simple, clerical or as you say "human" errors, its human interference. What you are talking about is difference in mathematics, not different forms.
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Jubilee through NIS concentrated on forging Form 34. Some had serious arithmetic errors but most were FORGERIES. They were NOT the original forms. Where the form is a forgery, the details on it are of no use and it is a waste of time to seek to count the votes on it.
For example if currency note is fake, does it matter if the amount on it is 10 or 10K? All that Raila had to do is show sufficient number of forms and how many votes were affected.
There is no summary of the Form 34A in the report. However NASA had prepared one. I have it somewhere. The judges obviously looked at the raw data and arrived at a similar conclusion that NASA made. Over 5 million votes were affected by discrepancies in both Form 34 A and B. Take those from Uhuru and give Jirongo and We end up with a runoff between Raila and Jirongo - theoretically
Pundit, how would different forms than those presented amount to simple "human errors"? If you have two different forms both purporting to be the one form 34A of polling station X, there's no room for human errors. One of them is fake. Or both. Fake isn't simple, clerical or as you say "human" errors, its human interference. What you are talking about is difference in mathematics, not different forms.