Nipate
Forum => Controversial => Topic started by: vooke on June 17, 2015, 08:49:24 AM
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Hello Daily Bread,
Hope your week is fabulous so far. Mine is slightly dull but it is well. I know you don't believe it but I read lots of Adventist literature. So am reading Great Controversy and I run into this quote
The books of record in heaven, in which the names and the deeds of men are registered, are to determine the decisions of the judgment. Says the prophet Daniel: ‘The judgment was set and the books were opened’ [Dan. 7:10]. The Revelator, describing the same scene, adds: ‘Another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things, which were written in the books, according to their works.’ Revelation 20:12.
Great Controversy,Ellen White, page 480-481
Let's look at Daniel and Rwvelation.
Daniel 7:10 (KJV)
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened
Revelation 20:12 (KJV)
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works
So in Daniel, 'books were opened', and in Revelation, 'another book was opened'. EGW tells us this is the SAME SCENE, same event.
Question, do you believe the event described in Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 20:12 are one and the SAME?
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Yes, the judgment in which the Lord considers the books depicted in Daniel 7 and Revelation 20 is one. You have previously asked about the investigative judgment which is highlighted in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_judgment
I'm mighty glad you're reading the Great Controversy and other Adventist publications. I hope you have a Bible with you to begin with (fundamentally) and to compare with what the prophet writes.
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Yes, the judgment in which the Lord considers the books depicted in Daniel 7 and Revelation 20 is one. You have previously asked about the investigative judgment which is highlighted in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_judgment
I'm mighty glad you're reading the Great Controversy and other Adventist publications. I hope you have a Bible with you to begin with (fundamentally) and to compare with what the prophet writes.
Hi Daily Bread,
I have several antique KJVs, one always in my glove compartment and an iPad full of all these fancy versions. I use the Olive app. But I discovered that technology makes me lazy, I don't have to memorize, just google a phrase from the app and voila!
Please confirm this. You like EGW believe both Rev 20:12 judgement and Daniel 7:10 judgement or books opening are the *SAME event?
* by SAME I mean, let's say you have two kids, Brian and Adelaide. You are mama Brian and you are mama Adelaide. Mama Brian= Mama Adelaide. So Rev 20:12=Daniel 7:10
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Now you're beginning to sound like Dr Trick Kwesons. I said yes and meant it. Can you get to the point?
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Now you're beginning to sound like Dr Trick Kwesons. I said yes and meant it. Can you get to the point?
No please, no trick questions I promise.
Revelation 20:1-12 New International Version (NIV)
The Thousand Years
20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
The Judgment of Satan
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Look closely at events leading up to v12.
Investigative Judgement is happening all along these events if it terminates in v12
Let's look at these events briefly;
1. Satan bound for 1,000 years- v1-3
2. Resurrection of the saints- v4 also called FIRST RESSURECTION-v5
3. A 1,000 years reign-v6
4. Satan released after 1,000 years-v7
Would you agree that ALL these events occur concurrently with IJ seeing you equate Daniel 7:10 with Rev 20:12?
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I need to read more. Several clarifications:
1. There is a judgment that takes place before the second coming (Rev 22:12 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.) For the reward to be with Him, He will have determined who gets it, a form of judgment.
2. For there to be saints ruling and judging in the millennium (1,000 yrs), it necessarily means God will have judged who the saints are (from the books mentioned in Daniel and Revelation).
3. Satan will have been judged by the end of the 1,000 yrs. (Rev 20: 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.)
4. The investigative judgment begins in 1844. That;s a whole sermon.
Judgment will take place. Am I ready? Are you ready?
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Hi Daily Bread,
Investigative Judgement ends with the Second Advent according to EGW (citation later)Please look at Revelation 20 and tell me where you would place the second Advent.
Specifically, is it before or after the 1,000 years?
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Daily Bread,
Here are the citations I promised;
The work of the investigative judgment and the blotting out of sins is to be accomplished before the second advent of the Lord.......
......When the investigative judgment closes, Christ will come, and His reward will be with Him to give to every man as his work shall be
Great Controversy, Page 485
When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven.
Great Controversy, Page 490
I think two things are quite clear according to EGW;
1.Investigative Judgement ends BEFORE Christ's return
2. Investigative Judgement ends or at least is active in Revelation 20:12
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EGW writes that the investigative judgement began in 1844 and ends before Christ's return (she quotes several verses in the GC Chapter - Facing Life's Record). She invites us to look into the meaning of Hebrews 6-9, Exodus, Leviticus 16 (Day of Atonement, Christ's intercession in the heavenly sanctuary), Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and several NT books (Acts, Mark, Corinthians, I Peter...).
Judgement is a complex matter and does not begin and end all at once. The Bible depicts several judgement scenes.
1. First, according to prophecy beginning in 1844, Christ enters the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary (the Millerites had misinterpreted this to mean the Second Coming - the Great Disappointment of 1844). Christ begins with reviewing the lives of the dead, everyone who has ever lived and confessed Christ (including Adam).
2. The judgement then moves to the living (Ezekiel and Peter describe this).
Scenes 1 and 2 are the investigative judgement in which people's actions, thoughts and decisions are reviewed against the high standard of God's law, as well as sins confessed and forsaken by the atoning blood of Christ, determine who will be saints in heaven.
3. Christ comes with "My reward" at the Second Coming to take the saints home. Judgement has been done and the verdict declared in favor of the saints and against the wicked, both living and dead. Christ comes to wake up and take home the righteous dead as well as the righteous living to be with Him 1,000 yrs. The wicked dead are killed by His bright appearing.(I Cor 15:50; I Thess 4:15--).
By this time, Satan and his followers have had no chance to defend themselves in open court.
4. During the millennium, the saints also do judgement, this time not to decide who will become saints but to review the books and "confirm" or vindicate God's righteous judgement against the dragon, the beast, the false prophet and the wicked. They also vindicate God's judgement in declaring them His saints. Satan is bound 1,000 years in a desolate earth at that time and cannot access the wicked dead to tempt them, nor can he reach the saints who are in heaven.
5. After 1,000 years, the wicked dead are raised in the second resurrection to receive their judgement along with Satan, the beast and the false prophet (whose judgement and fate will have been decided by the time of the Second Coming). This is the "open court" scene in which Satan and the wicked admit that God is indeed righteous and His judgement is fair.
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EGW writes that the investigative judgement began in 1844 and ends before Christ's return (she quotes several verses in the GC Chapter - Facing Life's Record). She invites us to look into the meaning of Hebrews 6-9, Exodus, Leviticus 16 (Day of Atonement, Christ's intercession in the heavenly sanctuary), Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and several NT books (Acts, Mark, Corinthians, I Peter...).
There are many Bible verses that show several judgment scenes.
1. First, according to prophecy beginning in 1844, Christ enters the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary (the Millerites had misinterpreted this to mean the Second Coming). He begins with reviewing the lives of the dead, everyone who has ever lived and confessed Christ (including Adam).
2. The judgment then moves to the living (Ezekiel and Peter describe this). Scenarios 1 and 2 are the investigative judgment proper in which people's actions, thoughts and decisions are reviewed against the high standard of God's law, as well as sins confessed and forsaken by the atoning blood of Christ, determine who will be saints in heaven.
3. Christ comes with "My reward" at the Second Coming to take the saints home. Judgement has been done in favor of the saints and against the wicked, both living and dead. Christ comes to wake up and take home the righteous dead as well as the righteous living to be with Him 1,000 yrs. The wicked dead are killed by His bright appearing.(I Cor 15:50; I Thess 4:15--).
4. During the millennium, the saints also do judgement, this time not to decide who will become saints but to review the books and "confirm" or vindicate God's righteous judgement against the dragon, the beast, the false prophet and the wicked. They also vindicate God's judgement in declaring them His saints. Satan is bound 1,000 years in a desolate earth at that time and cannot access the wicked dead to tempt them, nor can he reach the saints who are in heaven.
5. After 1,000 years, the wicked dead are raised in the second resurrection to receive their judgement along with Satan, the beast and the false prophet (whose judgement and fate will have been decided by the time of the Second Coming).
Hello Daily Bread,
I wish you could respond to the questions I raised.
1. We have established that you like EGW believe Rev 20:12 and Dan 7:10 are one and the same event.
2. We have Also seen from EGW writings that IJ terminates (shortly) BEFORE Second Advent/Coming
You also state thus;
Christ comes to wake up and take home the righteous dead as well as the righteous living to be with Him 1,000 yrs
And my question is, WHEN/WHERE is this in Revelation 20?
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Rev 20 takes place in heaven after the Second Coming and after the second resurrection. It is a scene in heaven before the throne of the Almighty God. It is in some ways an "open court" because no previous opportunity had been given to "hear" the wicked, Satan, the beast and the false prophet, nor had there been any chance for Satan and his followers to meet the victims of their reign of terror and their Advocate before the righteous Judge. This is the first and only scene all the players (the Accused, the Victims, the Advocate, the Judge, the angels as witnesses) in this judgement/courtroom get to meet. This is the FINAL judgement as opposed to the investigative judgement that takes place earlier.
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Rev 20 takes place in heaven after the Second Coming.
I think this statement is partly incorrect. There are some parts of Revelation 20 that happen on earth.
But working with this, it means Revelation 20:12 event of 'books opened' happens AFTER the second coming right?
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Rev 20 takes place in heaven after the Second Coming.
I think this statement is partly incorrect. There are some parts of Revelation 20 that happen on earth.
But working with this, it means Revelation 20:12 event of 'books opened' happens AFTER the second coming right?
1. Which parts of Rev 20 happen on earth? Are they also judgement scenes?
2. Yes, the books are opened after the second coming.
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Rev 20 takes place in heaven after the Second Coming.
I think this statement is partly incorrect. There are some parts of Revelation 20 that happen on earth.
But working with this, it means Revelation 20:12 event of 'books opened' happens AFTER the second coming right?
1. Which parts of Rev 20 happen on earth? Are they also judgement scenes?
2. Yes, the books are opened after the second coming.
Please ignore the location bit so as not to distract for now.
So if books are opened after the second coming and this very event is the one recorded in Daniel 7:10 which is Investigative Judgement, does that mean IJ continues well past the second coming?
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Rev 20 takes place in heaven after the Second Coming.
I think this statement is partly incorrect. There are some parts of Revelation 20 that happen on earth.
But working with this, it means Revelation 20:12 event of 'books opened' happens AFTER the second coming right?
1. Which parts of Rev 20 happen on earth? Are they also judgement scenes?
2. Yes, the books are opened after the second coming.
Please ignore the location bit so as not to distract for now.
So if books are opened after the second coming and this very event is the one recorded in Daniel 7:10 which is Investigative Judgement, does that mean IJ continues well past the second coming?
The investigative judgement does not take place after the Second Coming. The location is an important consideration because more than one event can take place at the same scene (place/location).
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The investigative judgement does not take place after the Second Coming. The location is an important consideration because more than one event can take place at the same scene (place/location).
Ok.
1. Are you saying the 'same scene' means same location not the same event?
2. And are you saying Daniel 7:10 judgement is not Revelation 20:12 judgement?
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Hi Daily Bread,
Another funny Monday after some serious 4-day outreach ending yesterday in Ruiru.
If you are comfortable enough, please respond the questions I raised above. If you find them offensive, kindly let me know and point out the offensive bit(s)
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Ruiru? Were you preaching or doing logistics?
Daniel 7 describes the investigative judgement. Rev 20 describes the final judgement. It is the same scene but different (yet very closely related and inseparable) events of judgement. I should have paid closer attention to your wording. What's your point?
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Ruiru? Were you preaching or doing logistics?
Daniel 7 describes the investigative judgement. Rev 20 describes the final judgement. It is the same scene but different (yet very closely related and inseparable) events of judgement. I should have paid closer attention to your wording. What's your point?
I asked the question twice and you answered in the affirmative.
Look at your response;
Yes, the judgment in which the Lord considers the books depicted in Daniel 7 and Revelation 20 is one.
Do you STILL stand by this statement?
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I stand by that statement recognising that like I said before, judgement is a long and complex issue and the Bible depicts it as such. What I see now is that I should have paid closer attention to your wording (scene and event). Are you now saying it was a trick question?
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I stand by that statement recognising that like I said before, judgement is a long and complex issue and the Bible depicts it as such. What I see now is that I should have paid closer attention to your wording (scene and event). Are you now saying it was a trick question?
So you reckon 'same scene' means anything but the same event as far as EGW is concerned?
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I stand by that statement recognising that like I said before, judgement is a long and complex issue and the Bible depicts it as such. What I see now is that I should have paid closer attention to your wording (scene and event). Are you now saying it was a trick question?
So you reckon 'same scene' means anything but the same event as far as EGW is concerned?
Semantics. Get to the point.
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I stand by that statement recognising that like I said before, judgement is a long and complex issue and the Bible depicts it as such. What I see now is that I should have paid closer attention to your wording (scene and event). Are you now saying it was a trick question?
So you reckon 'same scene' means anything but the same event as far as EGW is concerned?
Semantics. Get to the point.
The point is you reversed yourself midway
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Hi Daily Bread,
Caught another usage of the 'same scene' elsewhere on GC.
Besides the coming of the Lord to His temple, Malachi also foretells His second advent, His coming for the execution of the judgment, in these words: "And I will come near
Page 426
to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not Me, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 3:5. Jude refers to the same scene when he says, "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds." Jude 14, 15.
Great Controversy, page 426-427
What do we make of this, Malachi 3:5 and Jude 14,15?
It is the same scene but different (yet very closely related and inseparable) events of judgement.
'Same scene BUT different (yet very closely related and inseparable) events'?
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The point is you reversed yourself midway
I've reversed myself so many times in life that my reversals on Nipate are a drop in the ocean. That can't be the point. You had a point before I responded to your post. That's the point I'm looking for.
Matthew 25 is also a judgement scene complete with goats and sheep. Superficial reading may lead to the (false) conclusion that before judgement begins, all persons will be turned into goats and sheep (so the scene must be one of pasture and the event is grazing?). We gotta read with understanding.
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The point is you reversed yourself midway
I've reversed myself so many times in life that my reversals on Nipate are a drop in the ocean. That can't be the point. You had a point before I responded to your post. That's the point I'm looking for.
Matthew 25 is also a judgement scene complete with goats and sheep. Superficial reading may lead to the (false) conclusion that before judgement begins, all persons will be turned into goats and sheep (so the scene must be one of pasture and the event is grazing?). We gotta read with understanding.
What does 'same scene' mean?
You have two examples to work with