Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: patel on June 08, 2015, 07:58:56 AM
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Tony Gachoka just found out, James Bond owns them all in kenya from senior politicians, senior police to the judges. In kenya where a village chicken thief is celebrated more than Olympic champion, Wanjigi is king.
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Very powerful. The man was well connected in the Moi regime. In the Kibaki regime he rose up to be the man behind Anglo Leasing. Now in the Kenyatta regime he is in mafia language "Il supremo" ("the supreme one").
Just look for his images in the internet and you will see how had it is to get more than one image of this faceless fellow.
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Githongo fled Kenya after this character politely offered him a taste of the afterlife. According to wikileaks.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06NAIROBI944_a.html
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Githongo fled Kenya after this character politely offered him a taste of the afterlife. According to wikileaks.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06NAIROBI944_a.html
Am still amazed by the thoroughness of bazungu
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Githongo fled Kenya after this character politely offered him a taste of the afterlife. According to wikileaks.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06NAIROBI944_a.html (https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06NAIROBI944_a.html)
Am still amazed by the thoroughness of bazungu
They just do their job. What is amazing to me is how Angloleasing culprits are still walking. Not just walking but actually demanding and getting payments.
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Termie
Anglo Leasing and Goldenberg can never be addressed by the current political class.
Had Raila come to power in 2007, the VP would have been Mudavadi. In event PNU stayed in power and Saitoti was there. Mudavadi was also deeply inside Anglo Leasing. Now Obure has been negotiating for a way out while Mudavadi has already secured a Stay Out of Jail Card. He helped Uhuru cut off Raila and has agreed to do it again.
Unless you have a coup - Samuel Doe style - and parade these people and ask them to confess so they are jailed instead of being shot, their hubris is so huge they can't imagine being brought for trial.
There are ways of dealing with Jimmy however I doubt that he has the amount of power attributed to him. He like Sonko must be some extortionist who shakes down deal makers using Uhuru's name. He may have gained access to one of the EJK units - something that is easy when one has some coins and the right number to call.
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https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/06NAIROBI944_a.html
Staggering figures:
The $700 million at stake in the subset of corrupt deals investigated by Githongo alone far exceeds annual donor assistance flows to Kenya, a country which recently asked the international community for $230 million in emergency food aid and in which 56% of the population lives on a dollar a day or less.
It is such that make me chuckle when I am told that rich countries have a "moral obligation" to help places like Kenya and people go as far as complaining that they aren't getting enough "help".
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Who stole the money..the victims of poverty or the fat cats. Didn't the fat cats who stole the money not use international connections? Doesn't they rich countries not have the moral obligation to help us fight graft by nailing the international friends of Wanjigis and of course help the poor victims of the same graft.
It is such that make me chuckle when I am told that rich countries have a "moral obligation" to help places like Kenya and people go as far as complaining that they aren't getting enough "help".
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I partially agree. However note that Kenya has been very uncooperative when it comes to being helped to nab thieves. Here are some recent examples
1. Justice Nyamu outlaws seeking such help from Switzerland - to protect Kamani, Wanjigi etc
2. Okemo and Gichuru - free men. They are even parading the fact that they were never charged in Kenya as proof of their "innocence"
3. Poland demands the extradition of Kabogo / Joho for drugs - Even the media went dumb
One can't expect the developed countries to help if the government has placed itself as the protector of these shadowy figures.
Who stole the money..the victims of poverty or the fat cats. Didn't the fat cats who stole the money not use international connections? Doesn't they rich countries not have the moral obligation to help us fight graft by nailing the international friends of Wanjigis and of course help the poor victims of the same graft.
It is such that make me chuckle when I am told that rich countries have a "moral obligation" to help places like Kenya and people go as far as complaining that they aren't getting enough "help".
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You're just describing our corruption complex. That doesn't stop the developed nations from nailing their own including banks where the money is kept. Swiss for instance doesn't need Africa blood money and should have long ago repatriated the billions parked there..to countries like Kenya, Congo,Nigeria and etc. They can change the law to take evidence from non-gov actors and declare assets held by foreigners to be illegal. You cannot demand evidence of judicial action from a corrupt justice system.
The victim here remain the poor kenyan tax payer being fleeced. He or she deserve all the help. Of course it our primary responsibility as kenyans to help our selves..and we have been doing remarkably well by sacking 70% of Mps and political class.
I partially agree. However note that Kenya has been very uncooperative when it comes to being helped to nab thieves. Here are some recent examples
1. Justice Nyamu outlaws seeking such help from Switzerland - to protect Kamani, Wanjigi etc
2. Okemo and Gichuru - free men. They are even parading the fact that they were never charged in Kenya as proof of their "innocence"
3. Poland demands the extradition of Kabogo / Joho for drugs - Even the media went dumb
One can't expect the developed countries to help if the government has placed itself as the protector of these shadowy figures.
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The Swiss have in the past launched suo moto investigations leading to the repatriation of stolen money. I have in mind the Philippines' Marcos billions and the Abacha loot.
Kenya has never made any request for repatriation of funds. All that is required is a simple note from the government - even on a toilet paper - delivered to the ministry of foreign affairs, of Swiss Embassy. NGOs could also file a complaint with any police station in Switzerland and it will be acted upon. The law is such that it cannot be ignored without consequences!
You're just describing our corruption complex. That doesn't stop the developed nations from nailing their own including banks where the money is kept. Swiss for instance doesn't need Africa blood money and should have long ago repatriated the billions parked there..to countries like Kenya, Congo,Nigeria and etc. They can change the law to take evidence from non-gov actors and declare assets held by foreigners to be illegal. You cannot demand evidence of judicial action from a corrupt justice system.
The victim here remain the poor kenyan tax payer being fleeced. He or she deserve all the help. Of course it our primary responsibility as kenyans to help our selves..and we have been doing remarkably well by sacking 70% of Mps and political class.
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Doesn't they rich countries not have the moral obligation to help us fight graft by nailing the international friends of Wanjigis and of course help the poor victims of the same graft.
On what basis do you say that they have a moral obligation?
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What do you understand first by moral obligation. For me it means doing something you do not have to do. Because it a good thing to do.Nobody will hold them legally. But morally they are as bankrupt as wanjigi.
What I understand here is simple. Here is rich developed country whose systems [anglo leasing didn't have addresses in karatina and the money was wired outside the country] are being used to fleece a poor third world country. Swiss and Brits have moral obligation to nap Wanjigi and his friends who opened phoney companies under their jurisdiction,using phoney addresses in the same places, bank accounts, and got money wired directly.
At worse they can arrest them for money laundering. That remain the only hope against some of our powerful characters. If Wanjigi assets are seized..abroad...there is some chance..we will get something back.
Of course we know what Brits and Swiss do..turn a blind eye...as they set them phoney islands like cayman to fleece poor countries.
On what basis do you say that they have a moral obligation?
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Would the swiss allow terrorist to do the same. And wait for some toilet paper. The swiss, the brits and most of developed world benefits from grand corruption in third world...whatever they returned from Abacha loot was very little.
Why does developed world allows criminals to use their banking system to loot in the first place.
Where is their Know your Customer.
The Swiss have in the past launched suo moto investigations leading to the repatriation of stolen money. I have in mind the Philippines' Marcos billions and the Abacha loot.
Kenya has never made any request for repatriation of funds. All that is required is a simple note from the government - even on a toilet paper - delivered to the ministry of foreign affairs, of Swiss Embassy. NGOs could also file a complaint with any police station in Switzerland and it will be acted upon. The law is such that it cannot be ignored without consequences!
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Jersey tried to nap Samuel Gichuru and Chris Okemo. The cash is still pending in Kenyan courts now a few years as the two fugitives enjoy their stolen loot. We cannot only blame the wazungus for our shortcomings as you can see in this case it is us blocking the road to our own justice.
Why does developed world allows criminals to use their banking system to loot in the first place.
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What do you understand first by moral obligation. For me it means doing something you do not have to do.
I take understand it to mean what one would find in, say, a reasonable dictionary or the like:
"A duty which one owes, and which he ought to perform, but which he is not legally bound to fulfill."
Elsewhere, I find additional helpful information:
"A moral obligation is a duty or responsibility someone feels honor-bound to perform because of personal beliefs and values."
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-a-moral-obligation.htm
"Generally speaking, when someone says of an act that it is a "moral obligation," they refer to a belief that the act is one prescribed by their set of values".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_obligation
And so on, most other definitions being largely similar.
Here is why I ask:
The notion of "moral obligation" will vary from person to person and place to place; there is no absolute. In the particular matter, the people in the rich countries may well ask why they should help when a government that is engaged in the theft of $700 million at the very same time is begging for $230 million from others. So when one insists that in such a case they have a "duty" to help, one may well ask "on what basis?".
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Why does developed world allows criminals to use their banking system to loot in the first place.
Their banks exist to make money for their people. Why should it be their concern if others elsewhere steal money from their people and bank it with them?
At worse they can arrest them for money laundering.
Arrest them where and how? Where are Okemo and Gichuru right now?
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No business be it bank or whatever exist to make money from illegal proceeds...be they corruption(crime) or drugs or terrorism. They have turn a blind eye on third world corruption..because it doesn't affect them..except when immigrants like you ran there and cause problems. Otherwise they have zero tolerance for money from drugs or terror activities.
The fact of matter is that our fat cats are using most of the time foreigners[mostly EU] to fleece us.
Their banks exist to make money for their people. Why should it be their concern if others elsewhere steal money from their people and bank it with them?
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There is nothing to debate about this. Already the developed world accept their moral obligation by donating AID to us and lecturing us about ABCD. They do not have to donate their money to feed or clothe us..but they do it anyway. They should extend the same generosity into pursuing criminals like Angoleasing.
The notion of "moral obligation" will vary from person to person and place to place; there is no absolute. In the particular matter, the people in the rich countries may well ask why they should help when a government that is engaged in the theft of $700 million at the very same time is begging for $230 million from others. So when one insists that in such a case they have a "duty" to help, one may well ask "on what basis?".
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Lesson learnt. Next time have unsealed warrants and then nap them fat cats on their foreign trips. They can even be invited to Jersey, they'll promptly show up and arrested. You cannot give up. You cannot allow that cynical myopic negativity to derail a country.
Jersey tried to nap Samuel Gichuru and Chris Okemo. The cash is still pending in Kenyan courts now a few years as the two fugitives enjoy their stolen loot. We cannot only blame the wazungus for our shortcomings as you can see in this case it is us blocking the road to our own justice.
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There is nothing to debate about this. Already the developed world accept their moral obligation by donating AID to us and lecturing us about ABCD. They do not have to donate their money to feed or clothe us..but they do it anyway.
That is just an assumption that itself may be debated; indeed, you will find volumes written by some who claim that there are insidious motives behind the "aid". In general, it should not be necessarily assumed that the donation of money, food, clothes, or whatever---at any level--is necessarily out of a sense of moral obligation. An example is the deaths in the endless deaths in the Mediterranean Sea and other desperate forms of illegal immigration: there are those who argue that European countries should do more to help African countries. Why? So that they don't have poor Africans crowding their "nice" cities.
In any case, even if we were to accept that some have a sense of "moral obligation" in such matters, on what basis should is it to be assumed that such is without limit? As it is, you will find citizens of those rich countries increasingly complaining that their money is being "wasted".
At the root of my comments is need for African countries to end this idea that they can mess up as they like, but they will still be OK because others have a "moral obligation" to see them through.
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You're just describing our corruption complex. That doesn't stop the developed nations from nailing their own including banks where the money is kept. Swiss for instance doesn't need Africa blood money and should have long ago repatriated the billions parked there..to countries like Kenya, Congo,Nigeria and etc. They can change the law to take evidence from non-gov actors and declare assets held by foreigners to be illegal. You cannot demand evidence of judicial action from a corrupt justice system.
The victim here remain the poor kenyan tax payer being fleeced. He or she deserve all the help. Of course it our primary responsibility as kenyans to help our selves..and we have been doing remarkably well by sacking 70% of Mps and political class.
I partially agree. However note that Kenya has been very uncooperative when it comes to being helped to nab thieves. Here are some recent examples
1. Justice Nyamu outlaws seeking such help from Switzerland - to protect Kamani, Wanjigi etc
2. Okemo and Gichuru - free men. They are even parading the fact that they were never charged in Kenya as proof of their "innocence"
3. Poland demands the extradition of Kabogo / Joho for drugs - Even the media went dumb
One can't expect the developed countries to help if the government has placed itself as the protector of these shadowy figures.
The Swiss could definitely do more. They could for instance streamline their laws and lower the bars to deal with African thieves ruthlessly. Same with other countries where these thieves invest their loot. Denying them and their families opportunities to travel would also go a long way; to them, Kenya is just a place to loot.
That aside, there is no rationalizing people like Okemo and other known crooks being on very cozy terms with this regime, which if IEBC is believable, got over 50% of the vote. Or paying out money to Anglo-leasing after AG intentionally lets a winnable case die in Switzerland.
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Lesson learnt. Next time have unsealed warrants and then nap them fat cats on their foreign trips. They can even be invited to Jersey, they'll promptly show up and arrested. You cannot give up. You cannot allow that cynical myopic negativity to derail a country.
I think their main concern was that Okemo and Gichuru had broken laws in their countries. I doubt that they care whether Kenya is getting "derailed" or not. Nor do I see why that should care; it is Kenyans who should.
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You're asking for the impossible. The African is unable to deal with high level graft because it involves all the fat cats from the judges to the president. Therefore why would you insist on banging your head on the wall.
This is like FIFA. Sepp Blatter owned the damn thing like some of these characters basically own Kenya.
I think if developed world classify corrupt proceedings like they do with terror or drugs; we can defeat at least half of our thieves; they'll find increasingly very few safe heavens;
Bottomline: Wanjigi can only be brought down by FBI or someone of such clout. Not even Mumbi Ngugi will survive taking down those kind of criminals. And there is prima facia evidence these thugs have used developed world systems to loot...so why not nab them?
At the root of my comments is need for African countries to end this idea that they can mess up as they like, but they will still be OK because others have a "moral obligation" to see them through.
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The Swiss could definitely do more. They could for instance streamline their laws and lower the bars to deal with African thieves ruthlessly. Same with other countries where these thieves invest their loot. Denying them and their families opportunities to travel would also go a long way; to them, Kenya is just a place to loot.
This doesn't solve the fundamental problem. A good example is the case of Nigeria: the Swiss recovered hundreds of millions and returned them to Nigeria. There they got promptly stolen again! That is why the USA government is insisting that the near-$500 million they have recently recovered will return to Nigeria only in a way that the USA sees fit.
As long as the thieves are free, busy, and thriving, recovering and returning money will have a very limited effect.
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You're impossible. The point is still the same. They want Okemo and Gichuru extradiated to face trial. Chance are..Okemo and Gichuru..will buy their way out in kenya and stick within our borders. So for Jersey the next time they want to nab a kenyan for any crimes in their jurisdiction..just don't publicize the proceedings for warrants.
I think their main concern was that Okemo and Gichuru had broken laws in their countries. I doubt that they care whether Kenya is getting "derailed" or not. Nor do I see why that should care; it is Kenyans who should.
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You're asking for the impossible. The African is unable to deal with high level graft because it involves all the fat cats from the judges to the president. Therefore why would you insist on banging your head on the wall.
I insist on banging my head on the wall because:
(a) I believe that it is only Africans who can solve their fundamental problems, such as corruption. One country cannot solve the problem of "moral deficits" in another country.
(b) I believe that at some point, the average African will reach a point where he will act to bring about change---for example, by considering things like character and integrity when choosing those who would lead.
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Your beliefs are wrongs. Those in position to help now; should help now. FBI for instance helped FIFA. They didn't wait for Africa and third world corrupt football managers to do it..in year 2090.
That in summary is a moral obligation. You can help now. Help now.
I insist on banging my head on the wall because:
(a) I believe that it is only Africans who can solve their fundamental problems, such as corruption. One country cannot solve the problem of "moral deficits" in another country.
(b) I believe that at some point, the average African will reach a point where he will act to bring about change---for example, by considering things like character and integrity when choosing those who would lead.
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Your beliefs are wrongs.
Which beliefs are wrong? That only the African can solve his fundamental problems? I have yet to see any evidence that anyone else can or will solve them.
Those in position to help now; should help now.
Why?
FBI for instance helped FIFA. They didn't wait for Africa and third world corrupt football managers to do it..in year 2090
The USA did not act to help FIFA or because anyone in the USA particularly cares about football. It acted purely out of legal self-interest, i.e. that certain US laws had been broken and the US banking system had been abused. The real legal issue is not so much that they ate chicken, but that they had the chicken plucked in the USA.
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...and we have been doing remarkably well by sacking 70% of Mps and political class.
The "sacking rate" at elections has certainly been impressive. But I wouldn't call it "remarkably well" when the sacked are then replaced with a similar or worse lot. Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. That cycle needs to be broken, and it is where Kenyans need to wake up at some point.
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So you think our corrupt fatcats have not broken US and EU laws? That is rich coming from you. The point is very simple. Everyone should do their part. Africans will do their part considering the circumstances and the resources. Developed world ought to do their part too. Let everyone help. Esp those with more abilities.
The USA did not act to help FIFA or because anyone in the USA particularly cares about football. It acted purely out of legal self-interest, i.e. that certain US laws had been broken and the US banking system had been abused. The real legal issue is not so much that they ate chicken, but that they had the chicken plucked in the USA.
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There won't be any sudden waking up...unless we go for coup...we will slowly improve our leadership cadre. I personally think we are improving based on indicators I see around. Probably the first parliament of 60s had 10 degree holders..now it probably has 10 non-degree holders. But we need all the help as we improve.
The "sacking rate" at elections has certainly been impressive. But I wouldn't call it "remarkably well" when the sacked are then replaced with a similar or worse lot. Doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results. That cycle needs to be broken, and it is where Kenyans need to wake up at some point.
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No business be it bank or whatever exist to make money from illegal proceeds...be they corruption(crime) or drugs or terrorism. They have turn a blind eye on third world corruption..because it doesn't affect them..except when immigrants like you ran there and cause problems. Otherwise they have zero tolerance for money from drugs or terror activities.
Zero tolerance? Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that HSBC, one of the world's largest banks, admitted to knowingly laundering drug money from Colombia and Mexico and paid a $1.9 billion fine to the USA?
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I mean the GOV. Not the banks. The job of any gov is to regulate business including banks to ensure they are not engaged in criminal aiding activities like opening accounts purposefully for laundering money from Africa. Fed acted against the bank. Now that is what we need to here more. US feds can replace the lecture on corruption with real action on corruption in third world countries by making it hard for the corrupt to roam the free world.
Zero tolerance? Wasn't it just a couple of years ago that HSBC, one of the world's largest banks, admitted to knowingly laundering drug money from Colombia and Mexico and paid a $1.9 billion fine to the USA?
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So you think our corrupt fatcats have not broken US and EU laws? That is rich coming from you.
What gives you the idea that I think that? What I stated is that the USA is not acting in the FIFA case because it cares to help FIFA; the focus is on those US laws that have been broken.
But if I may ask: what US laws do you think "our corrupt fatcats" might have broken?
The point is very simple. Everyone should do their part. Africans will do their part considering the circumstances and the resources. Developed world ought to do their part too. Let everyone help. Esp those with more abilities.
This is the part I have problems with: "should", "ought to", etc. As long as their interests are not harmed and their laws are not broken, why the "should" and "ought to"?
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US feds can replace the lecture on corruption with real action on corruption in third world countries by making it hard for the corrupt to roam the free world.
Why should the USA care as long as US interests are not harmed?
The other thing you have to keep in mind is the US judiciary: the mere fact that some fellow is thoroughly corrupt in some third-world place does not mean the US government can do as it pleases. The serious criminals have the means to buy serious legal muscle, and the US Department of Justice has sometimes found itself at the end of some very hard tackles.