Nipate
Forum => Controversial => Topic started by: vooke on April 19, 2015, 05:41:12 PM
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Good afternoon church,
Am sorry am late, Kenya Powerless can't fix some power lines in under 48 hours.
John 4:24 (KJV)
God is a Spirit:.....
I want to share with us on the subject of the Holy Spirit. This topic is so wide that I have seen dissertations on it, big books, there is a discipline of theology called Pneumatology which focuses on Holy Spirit. I will do my best to present the Word with all simplicity so help me God. Starting next week. Maximum 3 weeks.
There is so some serious misunderstanding about Holy Spirit. Is it an 'it','Him'? Is there anything like Holy Spirit? Are there other Spirits outside Holy Spirit? And so forth.
Today as I was meditating on Hebrews a rather persistent theme came up. First, note Hebrews was written specifically to Christians. Look at these verses closely;
Hebrews 2:1 (KJV)
Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Hebrews 3:6 (KJV)
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrew 3:12 (KJV)
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God
Hebrews 4:1 (KJV)
Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it
In 2:1 there is a clear risk of losing what we have heard, in 3:6 we remain God's house if we hold on to the end,meaning letting go before means we are no longer God's house; in 3:12 there is a risk of departing from God, meaning you were with God in the first place; and in 4:1, there is a real risk of missing God's SABBATH/rest despite a clear opportunity being there.
The point is, it is not enough to make a confession of faith and to claim to be a Christian; walking with God is a MUST. Our relationship with God must not be a historical one, more like the guy who told his wife that like he assured her during their weddo 50 years ago, he still does no if anything changes he would let her know.
Judas was as close to Jesus as you can get. He finished very far away from Him. I will end by Paul;
2 Corinthians 13:5-6 (ESV)
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test! 6 I hope you will find out that we have not failed the test.
Are you still a Christian?
Have a blessed Lord's Day as we worship the Word of Life (1 John 1:1)
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http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4.htm
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Thank you for attending to church. Let the Word richly Indwell you.
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4.htm
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The point is, it is not enough to make a confession of faith and to claim to be a Christian; walking with God is a MUST. Our relationship with God must not be a historical one, more like the guy who told his wife that like he assured her during their weddo 50 years ago, he still does no if anything changes he would let her know.
vooke
Could you please elaborate further what you mean by the above statement....and what has it all got to do with the holy spirit? I have been hearing about the holy spirit a lot lately in church ..... A great Ghanian Rev was around and he preached on it a lot...... The first scripture I read about the holy spirit is when Jesus was breaking bread with the disciples right before he departed..."and they were filled with the holy ghost, and started speaking in tongues." When Jesus departed, he said he would send us a helper, who I assume is the holy spirit/holy ghost. Who is the holy spirit and how would you know if you have had an encounter with him/her....Is it the same as speaking in tongues? What are these gifts of the holy spirit?
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The point is, it is not enough to make a confession of faith and to claim to be a Christian; walking with God is a MUST. Our relationship with God must not be a historical one, more like the guy who told his wife that like he assured her during their weddo 50 years ago, he still does no if anything changes he would let her know.
vooke
Could you please elaborate further what you mean by the above statement....and what has it all got to do with the holy spirit? I have been hearing about the holy spirit a lot lately in church ..... A great Ghanian Rev was around and he preached on it a lot...... The first scripture I read about the holy spirit is when Jesus was breaking bread with the disciples right before he departed..."and they were filled with the holy ghost, and started speaking in tongues." When Jesus departed, he said he would send us a helper, who I assume is the holy spirit/holy ghost. Who is the holy spirit and how would you know if you have had an encounter with him/her....Is it the same as speaking in tongues? What are these gifts of the holy spirit?
Hi mya88,
Please note I mentioned Holy Spirit on passing. I was introducing the next sermon but We had the Nepal Earthquake and for that I postponed. Then the following Lord's Day I wasted my sleep watching Pacman and Money. Messed my weekend. I will share on it in due time hopefully coming Lord's Day.
I will try and answer your questions albeit not in as much details.
The reason I shared this sermon on the need to CONTINUE in Christ as opposed to a mere historical faith is because this is what Hebrews appear to exhort us to. As a believer, I become a Chriatian upon believing in Christ and confessing. But what next? Do we revert to the past life? No
Colossians 2:6-7 (ESV)
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, 7 rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving
Now to your questions.
1. Who/what is Holy Spirit?
Holy Spirit is God Himself. Holy Ghost is archaic English for Holy Spirit. Ghost=Spirit :)
2. It takes Holy Spirit transform us upon believing (born of the Spirit-John 3:6, Titus 3:5-6).
3. Every believer received a deposit, a seal an assurance of his inheritance in Christ and that is Holy Spirit dwelling in them (2 Cor 1:22)
What #1 and #2 means is Holy Spirit is active in EVERY believer's life. In fact we re told our bodies are His Temple
4. Over and above this common and basic I dwelling of a Holy Spirit in every believer, there is something called Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is the equivalent of water baptism; water all over you. Not every believer is baptized. This is what happened on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2.
5. Baptism is accompanied by manifestation of the Spirit namely spiritual gifts. Speaking in tongues is the commonest manifestation
6. So technically speaking in tongues is not having Holy Spirit because we all have that as believers. Tongues are manifestation of a different dimension the so called baptism. The many gifts of the Spirit are listed in 1 Corinthians 12-14
7. How do you get baptized?
There is no formula, just ask Nd you shall receive. What I have noted both from scriptures and real life is ignorance of this means you may miss it completely.
Will share more in due time. I can share a small book on the same for you. Please study it prayerfully and let me know whAt you find
http://www.substancechurch.com/sites/default/files/files/SkepticsGuideToTongues.pdf
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4. Over and above this common and basic I dwelling of a Holy Spirit in every believer, there is something called Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is the equivalent of water baptism; water all over you. Not every believer is baptized. This is what happened on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2
Vooke
I am more interested in #4. I have always known about #1 and #2, but this 4th dimension is what really has my attention. If it is equivalent to water baptism, why does someone need it if they have had the water baptism, as an adult or as a child? In the water baptism, even in adulthood, they schedule it and get it done…..Not quite the same with the Holy Ghost baptism. So are you saying you can have the Holy Spirit and never speak in terms? Somehow, it seems that part was being stressed more, which has me thinking that maybe if you have never spoken in other tongues, then you don’t have the Holy Spirit. Maybe be I have been ignorant all along, but it’s because I haven’t seen it explained to me in this way. Many people are clueless about these, most of them believers…..this convention awakened something I hadn’t felt in a while and I am a little curious. I will take time to find the book. Thanks.
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Vooke
I am more interested in #4. I have always known about #1 and #2, but this 4th dimension is what really has my attention. If it is equivalent to water baptism, why does someone need it if they have had the water baptism, as an adult or as a child? In the water baptism, even in adulthood, they schedule it and get it done…..Not quite the same with the Holy Ghost baptism. So are you saying you can have the Holy Spirit and never speak in terms? Somehow, it seems that part was being stressed more, which has me thinking that maybe if you have never spoken in other tongues, then you don’t have the Holy Spirit. Maybe be I have been ignorant all along, but it’s because I haven’t seen it explained to me in this way. Many people are clueless about these, most of them believers…..this convention awakened something I hadn’t felt in a while and I am a little curious. I will take time to find the book. Thanks.
Hi mya88,
I believe we should not be ignorant of these powerful aspects of Christianity.
Like any other doctrine, it has some aberrations and some are so crazy, it makes the teaching repulsive. But this need not be the case.
Why do we need this baptism?
Please look at Acts 1 and 2. Luke was quite a meticulous historian, captured so many details. Jesus himself as he ascended he COMMANDED the disciples go out into all the nations preaching the good news. This is called the Great Commision. But before that, he told them to wait for the Promise (Luke 24:49,Acts 1:4), for POWER,DUNAMIS
So the Baptism of Holy Spirit (BOHS) is actually a promise from Jesus. It was so crucial that the disciples waited for it before going out preaching. This means a believer is ill-equipped to operate in their assignment without the baptism, without the Promise. Note the baptism does not make you a Christian, it just empowers you as a Christian.Acts 19:1-6 shows believers who had NEVER heard about it. Once they did, they received the baptism. In Acts, many believers received the baptism upon laying on of hands by the apostles but others (Acts 10) by just hearing the word. I don't think we should be ignorant of something that's so crucial for our lives as believers
Must believers speak in tongues if they are baptized?
This is a controversial topic among Pentecostals. Why?
1. In 1 Corinthians 12-14 the biggest chunk of scriptures devoted to spiritual gifts (these are manifestations of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Please study the 3 chapters) Paul appears to suggest that not ALL people speak in tongues,they may operate in other giftings.
2. In all the RECORDED instances of the BOHS starting with Pentecost, speaking in tongues happened. All cases without exception. Paul ranks the gift much lower under prophecy btw. So from these two facts, it appears tongues are the most BASIC, and commonest
the #1 and #2 have caused huge rift among Pentecostals. Some churches teach they are MANDATORY and are INITIL EVIDENCE of BOHS. You see the BOHS is very visible, I will see mya88 bUbbling in Mandarin or tongues of angels :). In this camp, it is very easy to tell who has BOHS; they pray in tongues. But it also exerts immense pressure on the non-tongue speakers. They are made to feel small, sinners, stubborn....
Others believe they are not necessarily EVIDENCE of BOHS. these conservatives accommodate all. But the downside is, without physical proof of BOHS, one may claim to have been baptized without ever receiving it.
So both camps have their merits and demerits.
In my walk with Christ, I have discovered that the quickest way to receive the BOHS is not having 'powerful' MOGs lay hands on you ( which is OK) but rather, KNOWLEDGE and DESIRE. Learn all there is to about BOHS, and then aks the Father to baptize you. Don't fear, you won't go crazy and divorce your hubby the next day. You will be normal, only EMPOWERED.
The book I shared is a good starting point to learn about the gifts. It sort of demystifies it especially Tongues. Outside that book, I'd refer you to Acts especially 1&2 as well as the three 1Cor chapters (11-13)
As a child of God, this is your portion, it is yours for aksin. Tongues are very helpful in prayers which is one are we are all challenged. Your prayer life will never be the same.
Luke 11:13 (ESV)
13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Here is Peter explaining who can access the gift
Acts 2 :38-39 (ESV)
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.
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The falling....Whatsup with that?
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The falling....Whatsup with that?
That's interesting. I usually think these are details. Just like songs. Do we have any idea how they was singing back in the first century? Tempo, key.....no we don't yet we have exhortation to encourage each other with hymns and spiritual songs.
That said, personally, I discourage hunting for the tangible, visible signs; one may miss the big picture. But as usual, the flesh in US Is thrilled by ACTION...we are 'see then belief' more than 'believe then see' generation
As a caution, be very wary of what's not documented in the scriptures ; 'holy laughter' ,'gold dust annointing','gold teeth','falling',crazy dancing, spinning, howling....actually am skeptical of these...very skeptical
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Vooke
Hi mya88,
I believe we should not be ignorant of these powerful aspects of Christianity.
Like any other doctrine, it has some aberrations and some are so crazy, it makes the teaching repulsive. But this need not be the case.
Why do we need this baptism?
Please look at Acts 1 and 2. Luke was quite a meticulous historian, captured so many details. Jesus himself as he ascended he COMMANDED the disciples go out into all the nations preaching the good news. This is called the Great Commision. But before that, he told them to wait for the Promise (Luke 24:49,Acts 1:4), for POWER,DUNAMIS
So the Baptism of Holy Spirit (BOHS) is actually a promise from Jesus. It was so crucial that the disciples waited for it before going out preaching. This means a believer is ill-equipped to operate in their assignment without the baptism, without the Promise. Note the baptism does not make you a Christian, it just empowers you as a Christian.Acts 19:1-6 shows believers who had NEVER heard about it. Once they did, they received the baptism. In Acts, many believers received the baptism upon laying on of hands by the apostles but others (Acts 10) by just hearing the word. I don't think we should be ignorant of something that's so crucial for our lives as believers
Must believers speak in tongues if they are baptized?
This is a controversial topic among Pentecostals. Why?
1. In 1 Corinthians 12-14 the biggest chunk of scriptures devoted to spiritual gifts (these are manifestations of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Please study the 3 chapters) Paul appears to suggest that not ALL people speak in tongues,they may operate in other giftings.
2. In all the RECORDED instances of the BOHS starting with Pentecost, speaking in tongues happened. All cases without exception. Paul ranks the gift much lower under prophecy btw. So from these two facts, it appears tongues are the most BASIC, and commonest
the #1 and #2 have caused huge rift among Pentecostals. Some churches teach they are MANDATORY and are INITIL EVIDENCE of BOHS. You see the BOHS is very visible, I will see mya88 bUbbling in Mandarin or tongues of angels :). In this camp, it is very easy to tell who has BOHS; they pray in tongues. But it also exerts immense pressure on the non-tongue speakers. They are made to feel small, sinners, stubborn....
Others believe they are not necessarily EVIDENCE of BOHS. these conservatives accommodate all. But the downside is, without physical proof of BOHS, one may claim to have been baptized without ever receiving it.
So both camps have their merits and demerits.
In my walk with Christ, I have discovered that the quickest way to receive the BOHS is not having 'powerful' MOGs lay hands on you ( which is OK) but rather, KNOWLEDGE and DESIRE. Learn all there is to about BOHS, and then aks the Father to baptize you. Don't fear, you won't go crazy and divorce your hubby the next day. You will be normal, only EMPOWERED.
The book I shared is a good starting point to learn about the gifts. It sort of demystifies it especially Tongues. Outside that book, I'd refer you to Acts especially 1&2 as well as the three 1Cor chapters (11-13)
As a child of God, this is your portion, it is yours for aksin. Tongues are very helpful in prayers which is one are we are all challenged. Your prayer life will never be the same.
Luke 11:13 (ESV)
13 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
Here is Peter explaining who can access the gift
Acts 2 :38-39 (ESV)
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.
Vooke
That word Dunamis, I didn’t even know what it meant….the convention is actually called Dunamis T.C, lol. I am trying to figure this out from a clean slate without injecting Pentecostal denominations beef in it. I have heard talk about the holy spirit before, in fact I witnessed it severally as a child, but the people who spoke in tongues also did so much evil that I sort of thought it was just one other funny aspect of Christianity that you could ignore. After all even satan does attend church…..looking for those he wants to devour.
I have been doing some reading around. That book you suggested is interesting and easy to read. It’s taking me a while because some of these things you cannot just breeze through, you have to read, and re-read and compare notes……..it’s a bit overwhelming, but I want to read it now when it has my attention. If there is another level to Christianity/blessings that I have been missing out on, then I want to know. If it’s important in your prayer life, even better, because that is definitely the most challenging part of being a Christian. They say that the holy spirit prays to God on your behalf and can discern problems that may be coming your way or something like that.
I read 1 Corinthians 12-14 and saw all those gifts outlined. Some like healing , prophesying and discernment are so powerful they are not even debatable, yet to me it seems that in order to be able to do all these things, you must have had an encounter with the holy ghost, but if you do not speak in tongues, how would you know that you have heard this BOHS? Like you correctly allude to it, many who do not speak in tongues can just say they have been baptized without actually having BOHS.
Paul seems to suggest that there are many gifts of the spirit and actually ranks speaking in tongues lower, YET, in every instance in the bible, the people who were filled spoke in tongues…..To me that seems like it was a prerequisite or the most basic stage that someone should have achieved in their Christian walk, if indeed they have had BOHS. What I don’t understands is, what about those who do not speak in tongues who are made to feel like lesser Christians by those who do…..the pressure is amazing.
You also stated these: “Note the baptism does not make you a Christian; it just empowers you as a Christian.” But I thought being a Christian is prerequisite for BOHS, so whether it makes you a Christian or not is a non-issue. What other things do you have to do to receive?
About the hubby, I am not worried….I am the best thing that ever happened to him hahahah.
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Vooke
That word Dunamis, I didn’t even know what it meant….the convention is actually called Dunamis T.C, lol. I am trying to figure this out from a clean slate without injecting Pentecostal denominations beef in it. I have heard talk about the holy spirit before, in fact I witnessed it severally as a child, but the people who spoke in tongues also did so much evil that I sort of thought it was just one other funny aspect of Christianity that you could ignore. After all even satan does attend church…..looking for those he wants to devour.
I have been doing some reading around. That book you suggested is interesting and easy to read. It’s taking me a while because some of these things you cannot just breeze through, you have to read, and re-read and compare notes……..it’s a bit overwhelming, but I want to read it now when it has my attention. If there is another level to Christianity/blessings that I have been missing out on, then I want to know. If it’s important in your prayer life, even better, because that is definitely the most challenging part of being a Christian. They say that the holy spirit prays to God on your behalf and can discern problems that may be coming your way or something like that.
I read 1 Corinthians 12-14 and saw all those gifts outlined. Some like healing , prophesying and discernment are so powerful they are not even debatable, yet to me it seems that in order to be able to do all these things, you must have had an encounter with the holy ghost, but if you do not speak in tongues, how would you know that you have heard this BOHS? Like you correctly allude to it, many who do not speak in tongues can just say they have been baptized without actually having BOHS.
Paul seems to suggest that there are many gifts of the spirit and actually ranks speaking in tongues lower, YET, in every instance in the bible, the people who were filled spoke in tongues…..To me that seems like it was a prerequisite or the most basic stage that someone should have achieved in their Christian walk, if indeed they have had BOHS. What I don’t understands is, what about those who do not speak in tongues who are made to feel like lesser Christians by those who do…..the pressure is amazing.
You also stated these: “Note the baptism does not make you a Christian; it just empowers you as a Christian.” But I thought being a Christian is prerequisite for BOHS, so whether it makes you a Christian or not is a non-issue. What other things do you have to do to receive?
About the hubby, I am not worried….I am the best thing that ever happened to him hahahah.
hi mya88,
Yaani you was born in 1988?
Kidding :D
DUNAMIS is the Greek word for POWER and from the same word we get our English word DYNAMO. Look at this verse
Acts 1:8 King James Version (KJV)
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The word for power here is DUNAMIS. You can study more about it here (https://www.teknia.com/greek-dictionary/dynamis) and I guess that's why these Pentecostal meetings and churches use the name. It is in connection with Pentecost.
About Pentecostals and sin. One excuses for Christians and sin is, 'nobody is perfect'. I would not go that far but here is my take.
1. The one church where Spiritual gifts are mentioned at length is Corinthians. Studying the two epistles shows extremely carnal people. Just about all wickedness was found there; schism, fornication, idolatry.... So while we should not entertain carnality, it does not appear like BOHS effectively deals it a blow. I believe it takes more than BOHS.
2. Closely related to 1 is I believe excitement with the visible manifestation of BOHS makes us lazy, a sort of ' Holy Spirit is working in me, I can still speak in tongues even if am sinning so what!' attitude. BOHS in Acts 10 happened to guys hearing the gospel on the FIRST day and they spoke in tongues. Surely maturity in Christianity is a lifelong journey. I got born again one day and the next day I went to pray, I discovered I was praying in tongues. This was even BEFORE I properly understood salvation.
Point is manifestation of these gifts is no proof of your Christianity. I think it is Galatians 5:22-23 that talks of the fruit of the Spirit....true maturity is manifesting these and it is something the Spirit should be working in us OVER TIME.
About the book, there are hundreds of books on the subject but in my opinion, this is the best I have come across so far. As you said, it is easy to read. And I tend to AGREE with the author on ALL points which is rare for me. So whatever you see there vooke vouches for it. And then the author is a missionary. I don't mind theology and Greek and all that, but I have discovered that the books I find most valuable are those by ministers, practical Christianity that is does it for me. I mean we can waste the whole day here discussing the origin of demons and the historicity of Satan, but I'd rather somebody who ran into a demoniac.
How do you know you have BOHS?
For me, it is simple; your BOHS should be accompanied by at least one gift. I don't believe tongues are mandatory but I greatly treasure them and I believe they are almost universal. The reason being they help us in prayer and we all need prayers. I don't want to tell believers they are not baptized simply because I can't SEE it.Please allow me to share a few verses on tongues and prayers
1Corinthians 14:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1 Corinthians 14:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
Romans 8:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
So in Corinthians we are told when speaking in tongues you are speaking to God, you are praying. Romans is one of the most curious verses ever. Says God helps in our weaknesses(infirmities) and specifically the Spirit makes intercessions because we don't know how to pray as we should. How does the Spirit help us? By praying THROUGH us. It will be mya's spirit praying not her mind but those prayers will be coming from the Spirit, from God and most importantly, it is prayers according to the will of God.
It is important to not just pray but to pray ACCORDING to the will of God. Because only prayers made according to the will of God are heard!
1 John 5:14-15 King James Version (KJV)
14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us:
15 And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him.
Tongues really improve your prayer life. So much as I don't think it is a mandatory gift, it is one that everybody can greatly benefit from. Note the last Corinthians verse talking of praying with the spirit. Apart from prayerlife boost, your own spirit is strengthened
Jude 1:20King James Version (KJV)
20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Something about these gifts. There is a paradox; on one hand we are told in Corinthians that it is the Spirit of God who distributes the gifts on one hand, but on the other hand we are exhorted to DESIRE, to COVET the gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:11 King James Version (KJV)
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
1 Corinthians 12:31 King James Version (KJV)
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
So whatever gift you have, you can ask for more. Paul teaches tongue speakers should PRAY thT they may interpret. Start coveting tongues 8)
The reason I talked of BOHS not making you a Christian is important. It is because I have seen some believer looked down upon and basically being humiliated because they don't operate in any gift. Remember with/without BOHS, we are still believers and NOBODY should gloat over you over a GIFT! I have seen pride really eating up people who manifest gifts. This is wrong
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hi mya88,
Yaani you was born in 1988?
vooke
I am not that young, a bit older than that, 88 however played a defining moment in my young life. 8)
2. Closely related to 1 is I believe excitement with the visible manifestation of BOHS makes us lazy, a sort of ' Holy Spirit is working in me, I can still speak in tongues even if am sinning so what!' attitude. BOHS in Acts 10 happened to guys hearing the gospel on the FIRST day and they spoke in tongues. Surely maturity in Christianity is a lifelong journey. I got born again one day and the next day I went to pray.
This is the real reason many like me haven’t pay’d much attention to this BOHS. Because of this kind of attitude amongst believers. They do so much dirt and have nasty attitudes but on Sunday they are speaking in tongues in church…..how contradictory is that. If the holy spirit is supposed to help us with our infirmities, why is it that these people continue to go on living their lives as if nothing changed? Is it that they are not sensitive to the holy spirit?
I have read all those verses and indeed they encourage us to get BOHS. Romans even goes as far as asking as to covet these gifts. Corinthians says there are many gifts and speaking in tongues is just one of them. Paul however rates it lower than other gifts, even though ALL are important gifts. From reading the texts, I gather this much….Even though Paul rates it lower than those other gifts, speaking in tongues is stressed more in all these verses. Not many of them talk about prophesying to people, interpreting tongues, healing the sick, intercession et cetera. Why is that?
You also stated that “It is important to not just pray but to pray ACCORDING to the will of God. Because only prayers made according to the will of God are heard. “Are you saying that prayers that do not involve speaking in tongues are not heard by GOD? If speaking in tongues is speaking to God, who then are we speaking to when we aren’t speaking in tongues? Given that we are mostly praying from our minds and asking for the desires of our hearts.
The author of this script also states that
“The primary function of the Holy Spirit infilling is to continually receive supernatural power to be God’s witnesses regarding the coming kingdom of heaven”
This all sounds well and good, but what exactly is he saying? Again this is his own interpretation of it but What specifically does the Bible say about the “primary purpose” of the Infilling of the Holy Spirit? I am only in page 15.
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hi mya88,
Yaani you was born in 1988?
vooke
I am not that young, a bit older than that, 88 however played a defining moment in my young life. 8)
2. Closely related to 1 is I believe excitement with the visible manifestation of BOHS makes us lazy, a sort of ' Holy Spirit is working in me, I can still speak in tongues even if am sinning so what!' attitude. BOHS in Acts 10 happened to guys hearing the gospel on the FIRST day and they spoke in tongues. Surely maturity in Christianity is a lifelong journey. I got born again one day and the next day I went to pray.
This is the real reason many like me haven’t pay’d much attention to this BOHS. Because of this kind of attitude amongst believers. They do so much dirt and have nasty attitudes but on Sunday they are speaking in tongues in church…..how contradictory is that. If the holy spirit is supposed to help us with our infirmities, why is it that these people continue to go on living their lives as if nothing changed? Is it that they are not sensitive to the holy spirit?
I have read all those verses and indeed they encourage us to get BOHS. Romans even goes as far as asking as to covet these gifts. Corinthians says there are many gifts and speaking in tongues is just one of them. Paul however rates it lower than other gifts, even though ALL are important gifts. From reading the texts, I gather this much….Even though Paul rates it lower than those other gifts, speaking in tongues is stressed more in all these verses. Not many of them talk about prophesying to people, interpreting tongues, healing the sick, intercession et cetera. Why is that?
You also stated that “It is important to not just pray but to pray ACCORDING to the will of God. Because only prayers made according to the will of God are heard. “Are you saying that prayers that do not involve speaking in tongues are not heard by GOD? If speaking in tongues is speaking to God, who then are we speaking to when we aren’t speaking in tongues? Given that we are mostly praying from our minds and asking for the desires of our hearts.
The author of this script also states that
“The primary function of the Holy Spirit infilling is to continually receive supernatural power to be God’s witnesses regarding the coming kingdom of heaven”
This all sounds well and good, but what exactly is he saying? Again this is his own interpretation of it but What specifically does the Bible say about the “primary purpose” of the Infilling of the Holy Spirit? I am only in page 15.
Hi mya88,
Am not trying to decipher your age, just trying to be funny and it is not easy :)
About the conduct of tongue speakers, I don't think they are more wicked than others, only they are more readily stand out. If you went to a packed church and came out, you'd probably notice the preacher, his cute wife and choir. But waslk into a tongues session and the loudest stands out. So you are like, 'and how comes he is speaking in tongues?'
Please look at this verse;
Romans 11:29 (ESV)
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable
The context was Israel's covenant with God and the promises therein. But out of experience, I see this applying to spiritual gifts. They just don't vanish simply the moment you trip. A man of God may be fornicating and still preaching powerfully. All that God has built in your life won't disappear in a flash. And this is why some believers may persist in error. Some ministers live a lie for so long. But ultimately, you quench the Spirit and like Samson, you wake up one day and you are weak and all alone. Please focus on your own salvation and not others. Work out your own. BOHS is not a license to lasciviousness .
I think there are two reasons why there is much emphasis on this gift of tongues;
1. It was the commonest
2. It was the most abused
These two necessitated Paul to spend a disproportionate amount of time on it.
Note Paul is comparing tongues to prophecy, he measures the relative worth of each according to its value to the members of the church. Tongues without interpretation help/edify the speaker alone while prophecy edifies everyone. He even proposes that tongue speakers seek the gift of interpretation so others may gain from it. Interpreted tongues are as powerful as prophecy. Point is tongues are not exactly 'lower' than others.
About prayer. Am sorry I was not clear enough. What I mean is, There are many scriptures teaching us that God answers only what is in His will. If it is not, then He won't . I shared one of them. Jesus taught this as well. How do we know the Will of God? First is of course His Word. God won't go against His Word. For instance, He is against adultery. So a woman praying passionately for another woman's hubby won't be heard.
What that verse in Romans suggests is EVERYTHING we pray by the Spirit is the perfect will of God so it is bound to be answered. Our other prayers may/may not be according to his will. Let me aks. What have you been praying for over the last couple of days (apart from your meals)? Let's say a new job. But what is God's Will in this matter? See we have mya88 and God's will. Tongues are straight from the Spirit of God and He can't suffer you to pray contrary to Him because it would be wasteful.
About that statement, I believe it is derived from Acts 1:4. Jesus commanded the disciple to wait for the Promise. When the disciples push, he tells the. They shall receive Power/DUNAMIS and they shal be witnesses. Jesus held their witnessing till they received power. So obviously the Power is relevant for witnessing. You receive Power so you can be a stronger and bolder witness of Jesus here on earth.
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Vooke
By far 1corinthians 14 has been the most helpful in understanding this BOHS.
1Corinthins 14: 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. Now edify in another version means “builds himself up.” Is it then correct to assume that anyone who speaks in tongues does it for self-preservation in the body of Christ? Meaning, the spirit will intercede and strengthen him that he may remain steadfast in Christ. The other gifts however seem more directed towards the people i.e. prophesying is only helpful if it benefits another person or sends a message to another person. Healing is only important to those healed. These are signs that reinforce the word. The bible also says that you can still do these things and still fall short, especially if you don’t speak to God in tongues. So in essence, speaking in tongues is like a guide to help you in your Christian walk.
1 Corinthians 14:3 “but the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.”
However, I noticed also that Love superseded all these gifts
Verse 14 “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.” 15 “So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.” Now this here I do not understand…confusing as hell…
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Vooke
By far 1corinthians 14 has been the most helpful in understanding this BOHS.
1Corinthins 14: 4 Anyone who speaks in a tongue edifies themselves, but the one who prophesies edifies the church. Now edify in another version means “builds himself up.” Is it then correct to assume that anyone who speaks in tongues does it for self-preservation in the body of Christ? Meaning, the spirit will intercede and strengthen him that he may remain steadfast in Christ. The other gifts however seem more directed towards the people i.e. prophesying is only helpful if it benefits another person or sends a message to another person. Healing is only important to those healed. These are signs that reinforce the word. The bible also says that you can still do these things and still fall short, especially if you don’t speak to God in tongues. So in essence, speaking in tongues is like a guide to help you in your Christian walk.
1 Corinthians 14:3 “but the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.”
However, I noticed also that Love superseded all these gifts
Verse 14 “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.” 15 “So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding.” Now this here I do not understand…confusing as hell…
There is a popular teaching among Pentecostals I have heard so often but from scriptures I just can't see it. It claims there are TWO types of tongues; praying in tongues and speaking in tongues. Praying is just that whereas speaking is uttering some prophetic words only in a different language. It further claims that when Paul discouraged speaking in tongues without interpretation, he was talking about the latter otherwise praying in tongues don't need interpretation. When I look at it, I think it is just an ingenious way to excuse PUBLIC tongue speaking without interpretation, something Paul was against.
To your question, tongue speaking is essentially a 'selfish' gift, working just for you unlike others which serve the whole church. But this is only if nobody can interpret what you are saying. I regard tongues as some supercharged prayers. Prayer is very important for our walk with God and in that regard, tongues are very important at least on personal level.
Now that you mention love, Paul HYPOTHESIZES a loveless operation of the spiritual gifts and concludes all to be in vain. I think after the thrills of the physical manifestation of BOHS, he was cautious lest we get carried away and focus on what we can see. Remember I told you Corinthians were a messed up church yet they operated the giftings. Paul tells us LOVE is a more excellent way. I couldn't agree more.
What Paul is saying in this verse is expounding on how the gift of tongues works. Supposing you want to move your body say lift your hand. First, you THINK about it, then you 'command' your hand to move. Same with prayer. Before you utter anything, you THINK about it, then you move your mouth and vocal cords and words come out.
With tongues, your mind is completely dormant. You don't THINK what to say, your spirit, powered by the Spirit of God just issues 'instructions' to your mouth and you start speaking. Of course you are fully conscious and you can feel and hear yourself speaking. But your mind has no clue what's going on. This is what Paul meant by 'unfruitful mind' since it does not participate in the process. Tongues means languages, a new unlearned language. You can't possibly sing or pray in an unlearned language.
Paul in the previous verse 13 recommends pursuit of the gift of interpretation. When you get the gift of interpretation, you will be praying in a language you have never learned, and at the same time you will comprehend what you are saying. So your mind will be 'fruitful'. It's like you praying in Mandarin and understanding Mandarin momentarily.
Let me try a simple illustration
1. Normal prayer
Mind~~~~~>Mouth/vocal cords (mind is fruitful/full comprehension)
2. Praying in tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~>mouth/vocal cords (mind is 'unfruitful'/no comprehension)
3. Praying in and Interpreting tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~mouth/vocal cords~~~>your mind (mind is fruitful/comprehension)
-
With tongues, your mind is completely dormant. You don't THINK what to say, your spirit, powered by the Spirit of God just issues 'instructions' to your mouth and you start speaking. Of course you are fully conscious and you can feel and hear yourself speaking. But your mind has no clue what's going on. This is what Paul meant by 'unfruitful mind' since it does not participate in the process. Tongues means languages, a new unlearned language. You can't possibly sing or pray in an unlearned language.
Paul in the previous verse 13 recommends pursuit of the gift of interpretation. When you get the gift of interpretation, you will be praying in a language you have never learned, and at the same time you will comprehend what you are saying. So your mind will be 'fruitful'. It's like you praying in Mandarin and understanding Mandarin momentarily.
Let me try a simple illustration
2. Praying in tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~>mouth/vocal cords (mind is 'unfruitful'/no comprehension)
3. Praying in and Interpreting tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~mouth/vocal cords~~~>your mind (mind is fruitful/comprehension)
vooke, are you speaking from personal experience with tongues?
I am asking because I have always wanted to ask someone who does it, but never gotten the opportunity. I am usually confused about who is genuinely "speaking in tongues" and who is uttering gibberish, just out of "peer-pressure" or influence. Sometimes the language sounds far too simplistic to be a genuine language, so I doubt, but I also don't wish to offend the Holy Spirit just because it doesn't sound genuine to me....Man's wisdom is foolishness to God, afterall, Eespecially when it comes to that Spirit of God who "searches" both our spirit and the very depths of God and intercedes on our behalf in "sighs too deep" for us to fathom (Deep calls to deep), per Our Lord and St. Paul's revelations/teaching.
But you don't seem like a person who would knowingly lie about it, so I'm going to ask you: What exactly is this experience of uttering words or sounds that don't make sense in your normal spoken languages?
I mean:
-Does it "come to you" involuntarily or do you start deliberately and then in the process it comes up by itself as you speak?
-What does it feel like? What's going on with you DURING the process?
-What influence does it have on your own life personally, beyond the prayer session? Does it bring you peace, for example, or the other fruits of the Holy Spirit? etc etc
Stuff like that.....
-
vooke, are you speaking from personal experience with tongues?
I am asking because I have always wanted to ask someone who does it, but never gotten the opportunity.
Hi kadame (am not callings Bella, not now nor for the next two consecutive eternities).
Yes, am speaking from my own experience, and what I have heard others
I am usually confused about who is genuinely "speaking in tongues" and who is uttering gibberish, just out of "peer-pressure" or influence. Sometimes the language sounds far too simplistic to be a genuine language, so I doubt,
Critics of tongues claim that linguistic experts/science simply rules out any meaningful language out of tongues. First, the tongues are completely strange, 'no' language like that exists. Or the syllables, sentences, constructs and all that just can't don't meet the threshold of ANY language. They also claim that while first century tongues could be understood, 'nobody' understands these. There are also claims of fake tongues and of course counterfeits, right from hell.
About tongues being gibberish, I think given the over 3000 languages in the world not to mention hundreds if not thousands of extinct language, I can excuse tongues being gibberish. Then in 1 Cor 14 where Paul hypothesizes loveless exercise of the gifts, he mentions of 'tongues of Angels'. What this means to me is there is a possibility some tongues are not human at all and they don't have to fit the realms of linguists.
If you hear tongues often, you can catch some words, and mimic tongues. Some abuse of this gift include some sects giving you some words to repeat super fast so as to 'induce tongues'! Then I have heard stories of occultists praying in tongues in a congregation and CURSING members who of course can't hear nothing.
For all these reasons, your concerns are valid, but solution to abUSE is proper USE not disUSE.
but I also don't wish to offend the Holy Spirit just because it doesn't sound genuine to me....Man's wisdom is foolishness to God, afterall, Eespecially when it comes to that Spirit of God who "searches" both our spirit and the very depths of God and intercedes on our behalf in "sighs too deep" for us to fathom (Deep calls to deep), per Our Lord and St. Paul's revelations/teaching.
It is true. When Jesus performed miracles, the perplexed Jews when they could not deny they attributed them to Baalzebub (devil). Jesus said they were blaspheming the Holy Spirit. So it ia not wise to speak evil of what you don't understand-Jude 1:10
But you don't seem like a person who would knowingly lie about it, so I'm going to ask you: What exactly is this experience of uttering words or sounds that don't make sense in your normal spoken languages?
I mean:
-Does it "come to you" involuntarily or do you start deliberately and then in the process it comes up by itself as you speak?
-What does it feel like? What's going on with you DURING the process?
-What influence does it have on your own life personally, beyond the prayer session? Does it bring you peace, for example, or the other fruits of the Holy Spirit? etc etc
Stuff like that.....
I don't know how to describe the experience but I have tried and I will try.
Imagine reading an entire paragraph of Kinyarwanda of 200 words. Your mouth is uttering Kinyarwanda, you can hear yourself uttering something, but your mind has no idea what you saying unlike if you are vybing your guy in fluent Gusii 8)
At first it was involuntary but with time, you learn how to control yourself. There is a verse Paul's says the 'spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets' still with regard to order in public worship. You can stop and pray naturally or continue praying in tongues
The biggest impact of prayer is I think strength. And then at times peace especially over difficulties. The other one is conviction. Those nasty things/sins, the secret ones that I keep on doing, you are convicted pap!
I think in a nutshell it feels like am just from a date.....yes, an exhilarating romantic dinner. Prayer really is a romantic encounter with the Godhead.
How would you feel if you was being proposed to on top of Mt Kenya, if you was Sharon Mundia?
(http://www.capitalfm.co.ke/lifestyle/files/2015/05/IMG-20150505-WA0001.jpg)
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Vooke
“focus on you own salvation and not others.” :D You have spoken well. That is what I am trying to do, even as I compare notes. I am really rather perplexed that I have been around church all this time, and this issue as important as its turning out to be, has never been stressed that much. Or maybe, I have just not been that interested, based on what I have seen in the past. Either way, it’s a lousy excuse.
As important as this BOHS is, I am also surprised that it isn’t central theme in most deliverance churches. To add to it, there are very many scriptures that preach salvation and how to be saved without any discussion of BOHS. It feels likemy whole Christianity thing is coming into question. Could this explain why many Christians struggle so much with simple things such as prayer?
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you
Acts 19:2. “and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 4. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5. On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6: “ When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.”
The writer of the manuscript states that….”The fact that people haven’t yet experienced unknown tongues (or any other manifestation) could simply mean that they already have the baptism; and, they simply need to receive better teaching about receiving and “letting the manifestations out.” Why do some people need even more teaching to receive manifestation and some receive it without even asking? Is it that they have less faith or doubts in their hearts?
-
Vooke
“focus on you own salvation and not others.” :D You have spoken well. That is what I am trying to do, even as I compare notes. I am really rather perplexed that I have been around church all this time, and this issue as important as its turning out to be, has never been stressed that much. Or maybe, I have just not been that interested, based on what I have seen in the past. Either way, it’s a lousy excuse.
As important as this BOHS is, I am also surprised that it isn’t central theme in most deliverance churches. To add to it, there are very many scriptures that preach salvation and how to be saved without any discussion of BOHS. It feels likemy whole Christianity thing is coming into question. Could this explain why many Christians struggle so much with simple things such as prayer?
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you
Acts 19:2. “and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." 4. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5. On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6: “ When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.”
The writer of the manuscript states that….”The fact that people haven’t yet experienced unknown tongues (or any other manifestation) could simply mean that they already have the baptism; and, they simply need to receive better teaching about receiving and “letting the manifestations out.” Why do some people need even more teaching to receive manifestation and some receive it without even asking? Is it that they have less faith or doubts in their hearts?
Hi mya,
I hope you are not offended by the length of my posts. Am going through them and some appear really long. I know these are deep questions and we can't just gloss over. At the same time I'd hate to bore you to death with endless inshas.
When I said work out your own salvation, I did not mean we should turn a blind eye to Christianity practiced by others. I only meant that whatever you see in them should not affect your relationship with Christ. I always joke that even Jesus couldn't get a perfect church, he had a thief and a suicidal thug rolled into one in the name of Judas. One out of twelve.
There are three reasons I believe why BOHS is seldom mentioned:
1. Cessationism
2. Bad publicity
3. Ignorance
CESSATIONISM
This is a belief that the spiritual gifts ceased to be operational with the death of the apostles. It is believed that the gifts were to aid the church before the NT was penned and after this happened, the tongues became unnecessary, they expired. Evidence of this is;
(A) Observed diminishing of the gifts after the first century
(B) some scriptures that appear to suggest so. The foundational scripture for this?
1Corinthians 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease;as for knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
The verse insists the gifts are temporal; they will cease at some point when the 'perfect' comes.
The Cessationists claim that the 'perfect' means New Testament. The last book of NT, Revelation was penned between 69-96AD. All books were in circulation by the turn of the first century. By 150AD they had started compiling them and had a good idea what should be canonical and what shouldn't.
This position is quite popular among non-Pentecostals and over the entire Christian history . It is how they excuse absence of the giftings. But to me, it borders on fatalism; you wake up and read about gifts and crazy stuff but you can't see the same in you. You conclude they were not meant for you. Case closed 8)
I don't buy it because there is zero proof that the 'perfect' is the NT. That's a wild wild convenient speculation. And in any case, some of the giftings had nothing to do with scriptures. For instance healing. I keep on asking cessationists whether demons stopped possessing believers as soon as Revelation was penned, and what they would do if the ran into demoniac.
This teaching is responsible for the widespread ignorance of the BOHS. Why talk much about stuff that is 'irrelevant' for you?
2. BAD PUBLICITY
From Pentecost, BOHS has been abused and it was a major reason for 1 Corinthians epistle; to correct the excesses. Some guys take extreme position and ignore it all together. Like I sai, I believe the solution to abUSE is proper USE not disUSE
3. IGNORANCE
Just plain old i gnorance. BOHS is one thing you can sleep through if you are ignorant
Acts 19:1-6King James Version (KJV)
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Note these guys were believers and they had never heard nothing. They received immediately upon hearing Nd believing.
I sometimes think this ignorance is inspired by the devil because he knows the implication of BOHS.
Every time I look at Luke 24 and Acts 1-2, how Jesus suspended the Great Commission till BOHS, I get convinced that BOHS is a necessity and not a.....not reserve for the Christian nerds.
-
There is a popular teaching among Pentecostals I have heard so often but from scriptures I just can't see it. It claims there are TWO types of tongues; praying in tongues and speaking in tongues. Praying is just that whereas speaking is uttering some prophetic words only in a different language. It further claims that when Paul discouraged speaking in tongues without interpretation, he was talking about the latter otherwise praying in tongues don't need interpretation. When I look at it, I think it is just an ingenious way to excuse PUBLIC tongue speaking without interpretation, something Paul was against.
To your question, tongue speaking is essentially a 'selfish' gift, working just for you unlike others which serve the whole church. But this is only if nobody can interpret what you are saying. I regard tongues as some supercharged prayers. Prayer is very important for our walk with God and in that regard, tongues are very important at least on personal level.
Now that you mention love, Paul HYPOTHESIZES a loveless operation of the spiritual gifts and concludes all to be in vain. I think after the thrills of the physical manifestation of BOHS, he was cautious lest we get carried away and focus on what we can see. Remember I told you Corinthians were a messed up church yet they operated the giftings. Paul tells us LOVE is a more excellent way. I couldn't agree more.
What Paul is saying in this verse is expounding on how the gift of tongues works. Supposing you want to move your body say lift your hand. First, you THINK about it, then you 'command' your hand to move. Same with prayer. Before you utter anything, you THINK about it, then you move your mouth and vocal cords and words come out.
With tongues, your mind is completely dormant. You don't THINK what to say, your spirit, powered by the Spirit of God just issues 'instructions' to your mouth and you start speaking. Of course you are fully conscious and you can feel and hear yourself speaking. But your mind has no clue what's going on. This is what Paul meant by 'unfruitful mind' since it does not participate in the process. Tongues means languages, a new unlearned language. You can't possibly sing or pray in an unlearned language.
Paul in the previous verse 13 recommends pursuit of the gift of interpretation. When you get the gift of interpretation, you will be praying in a language you have never learned, and at the same time you will comprehend what you are saying. So your mind will be 'fruitful'. It's like you praying in Mandarin and understanding Mandarin momentarily.
Let me try a simple illustration
1. Normal prayer
Mind~~~~~>Mouth/vocal cords (mind is fruitful/full comprehension)
2. Praying in tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~>mouth/vocal cords (mind is 'unfruitful'/no comprehension)
3. Praying in and Interpreting tongues
Holy Spirit~~~>your spirit~~~~mouth/vocal cords~~~>your mind (mind is fruitful/comprehension)
vooke
I have heard of speaking in tongued and praying in tongues. I always assumed the two were the same thing and I haven't seen any significant distinction among-st the two. Why else would some one be speaking in tongues if they aren't praying....since this is a gift of self...to intercede to God on your behalf. I have also seen pastors who as they pray in tongues, they get a message from God and say it in plain English to whomever the message is for.
I never had questions of these kind before when it pertains to pastors especially those who are really called...... But reading Corinthians awakened me to the fact that anyone can have these gifts if they desire and ask for them.... but before the gift there must be BOHS. So why not empower people to pray for that BOHS so that they don't constantly need pastors or prophets to pray fr them?
-
Hi mya,
I hope you are not offended by the length of my posts. Am going through them and some appear really long. I know these are deep questions and we can't just gloss over. At the same time I'd hate to bore you to death with endless inshas.
When I said work out your own salvation, I did not mean we should turn a blind eye to Christianity practiced by others. I only meant that whatever you see in them should not affect your relationship with Christ. I always joke that even Jesus couldn't get a perfect church, he had a thief and a suicidal thug rolled into one in the name of Judas. One out of twelve.
There are three reasons I believe why BOHS is seldom mentioned:
1. Cessationism
2. Bad publicity
3. Ignorance
CESSATIONISM
This is a belief that the spiritual gifts ceased to be operational with the death of the apostles. It is believed that the gifts were to aid the church before the NT was penned and after this happened, the tongues became unnecessary, they expired. Evidence of this is;
(A) Observed diminishing of the gifts after the first century
(B) some scriptures that appear to suggest so. The foundational scripture for this?
1Corinthians 13:8-10 English Standard Version (ESV)
8 Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease;as for knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
The verse insists the gifts are temporal; they will cease at some point when the 'perfect' comes.
The Cessationists claim that the 'perfect' means New Testament. The last book of NT, Revelation was penned between 69-96AD. All books were in circulation by the turn of the first century. By 150AD they had started compiling them and had a good idea what should be canonical and what shouldn't.
This position is quite popular among non-Pentecostals and over the entire Christian history . It is how they excuse absence of the giftings. But to me, it borders on fatalism; you wake up and read about gifts and crazy stuff but you can't see the same in you. You conclude they were not meant for you. Case closed 8)
I don't buy it because there is zero proof that the 'perfect' is the NT. That's a wild wild convenient speculation. And in any case, some of the giftings had nothing to do with scriptures. For instance healing. I keep on asking cessationists whether demons stopped possessing believers as soon as Revelation was penned, and what they would do if the ran into demoniac.
This teaching is responsible for the widespread ignorance of the BOHS. Why talk much about stuff that is 'irrelevant' for you?
2. BAD PUBLICITY
From Pentecost, BOHS has been abused and it was a major reason for 1 Corinthians epistle; to correct the excesses. Some guys take extreme position and ignore it all together. Like I sai, I believe the solution to abUSE is proper USE not disUSE
3. IGNORANCE
Just plain old i gnorance. BOHS is one thing you can sleep through if you are ignorant
Acts 19:1-6King James Version (KJV)
19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Note these guys were believers and they had never heard nothing. They received immediately upon hearing Nd believing.
I sometimes think this ignorance is inspired by the devil because he knows the implication of BOHS.
Every time I look at Luke 24 and Acts 1-2, how Jesus suspended the Great Commission till BOHS, I get convinced that BOHS is a necessity and not a.....not reserve for the Christian nerds.
Vooke
I generally don’t care how long the post is if it has something that really interests me. It helps if you spread it out a bit for easy reading. I however get bore to sleep by endless rants about religion and what denomination does what. Personally I don’t even have a preference for denomination and I could belong to any as long as they are serious about that relationship with God and follows the bible. I am for these reason acutely aware that there are many bogus religions out there being formed to deceive followers…..more reason to be vigilant and to question any teaching. All churches I have gone to, since I was a teenager and could understand some things about God, I have witnessed people speaking in tongues. There was just nothing special in them that I could point out.
What blew my mind is how beneficial this gift is to any Christian all around and how it’s not mentioned in church at all or just in passing. Actually it took a pastor from another church in Africa to awaken this issue in me…….which is weird because thee thing has been in my face all along. I can’t understand why it was fleeting while it was around me all this time. Its like a veil was suddenly lifted, can’t explain it. Maybe it is indeed ignorance. But you may have a point about the devils hand in all these given that
ACTS 18: 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
I am not even aware of the cessationists movement that do not believe in miracles any more. I think that is a sad thing given the amount of suffering going on in the world today. This would have been a good time to have prophets and intercessors rise up and pray for our country.
Right before PEV, I another pastor from another country here in the US prophesied about Big angry Bears entering Kenya that he was seeing in a vision. He asked the congregation to pray for Kenya and needed Kenyans to start praying earnestly. Normally I wouldn’t pay much attention to such things, but every now and then I listen and look out for signs.
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http://biblehub.com/hebrews/4.htm
DB
Thank you for this site. Its turning out to be quite a useful tool in comparing scripture readings quickly.
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vooke
I have heard of speaking in tongued and praying in tongues. I always assumed the two were the same thing and I haven't seen any significant distinction among-st the two. Why else would some one be speaking in tongues if they aren't praying....since this is a gift of self...to intercede to God on your behalf. I have also seen pastors who as they pray in tongues, they get a message from God and say it in plain English to whomever the message is for.
I never had questions of these kind before when it pertains to pastors especially those who are really called...... But reading Corinthians awakened me to the fact that anyone can have these gifts if they desire and ask for them.... but before the gift there must be BOHS. So why not empower people to pray for that BOHS so that they don't constantly need pastors or prophets to pray fr them?
Hi mya,
I believe pastors/ministers are leaders, they teach you the word, how to pray, fast, evangelize and so forth. But this if not. He led can lead to DEPENDENCE, where members can't function without the pastors. Taken to extreme, you find cultish behavior here where a pastor controls just about every important part of a member's life.
So my job should to teach you how to DIY. But at the same time we must appreciate that BOHS was never meant to usurp a pastor's spiritual authority or even dispense with the need for corporate prayer or intercession. In Acts, long after BOHS, you will find the church praying for others. For instance,
Acts 12:5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.
Or even Paul requesting prayers for him
Ephesians 6:18-19 King James Version (KJV)
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;
19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,
A pastor should be the happiest when every member has received power so they can be witnesses and have victorious lives. The old adage that a flock of sheep led by a lion can conquer a pack of lions led by a sheep is true. A church more often than not can only rise as far as its pastor. So a pastor has a huge responsibility to get the best and the most out of each believer's life. But at the same time, believer has a job to study scriptures for themselves and not just depend on the pastor. Arrange for your own private fasts, prayer, devotion, bible study, interrogate your pastor's sermons too like the Bereans- Acts 17:11. The times when scriptures were in the hands of a few are long gone. this makes you more responsible for your beliefs.
Am glad you appreciate the availability of BOHS. Even among Pentecostals, there is a funny belief that only pastors should be sailing in the gifts. This is far from the truth. On Pentecost, 120 received the baptism. All the recorded BOHS instances after that show normal believers walking in it. Then in 1 Cor Paul addresses an entire church suggesting the gifts were operational in all and not just leadership.
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Vooke
I generally don’t care how long the post is if it has something that really interests me. It helps if you spread it out a bit for easy reading.
I will try my best to improve. Am glad this issue has really caught your attention. Please don't let it die like that as soon as something 'more interesting' comes along
I however get bore to sleep by endless rants about religion and what denomination does what.
I think debating doctrines is healthy. But of course it can get out of hand, minister more division than anything. My foundation is simple; anything I can't support from scriptures I should discard it asap. So am continuously examining my beliefs to see if they conform to scriptures. of course I can't examine my belief in a vacuum, I also look at other beliefs on the same subject.
Personally I don’t even have a preference for denomination and I could belong to any as long as they are serious about that relationship with God and follows the bible. I am for these reason acutely aware that there are many bogus religions out there being formed to deceive followers…..more reason to be vigilant and to question any teaching.
I like that.
Denominationalism has its pros and cons.
Any group of people meeting regularly daring faith will eventually develop some doctrines or their peculiar way of understanding scriptures. This uniformity helps in bonding and stability. I mean you can't be waking up today believing X and the next day you believe Y.
The cons is the conformity may actually blind you to the truth, because all you know is your denomination.
So I don't recommend dogmatism, a sort of my-denomination-is-right-and-yours-is wrong. Go to any church, learn their doctrines but keep an open mind knowing you will be answerable to God ALONE. Am a Pentecostal, I believe in some strands of Calvinism, others I don't, I have serious reservations on prosperity gospel, tithing...
When joining a church, I think you should have some minimums. I'd recommend this to anyone;
1.They must elevate scripture as their sole authority. And they must not just say so, they must act so.
2. Their Christology, who Christ be, he is God, uncreated, eternal.....
3. They MUST teach grace, salvation PURELY by Grace. Grace+works is a red flag
4. They Should be continuationist as far as BOHS is concerned.
5. They must be passionate about evangelism, reaching out
6. The reverence for their pastor/leader should be 'moderate'; they are men not mediators between you and God
All churches I have gone to, since I was a teenager and could understand some things about God, I have witnessed people speaking in tongues. There was just nothing special in them that I could point out.
What blew my mind is how beneficial this gift is to any Christian all around and how it’s not mentioned in church at all or just in passing. Actually it took a pastor from another church in Africa to awaken this issue in me…….which is weird because thee thing has been in my face all along. I can’t understand why it was fleeting while it was around me all this time. Its like a veil was suddenly lifted, can’t explain it. Maybe it is indeed ignorance. But you may have a point about the devils hand in all these given that
Interesting.
Something is lying in plain sight and we can't see it. But the cessationist movement which dominated Christianity since Reformation may be to blame. Here you can read all about Holy Spirit but at the back of your mind you think, 'this is not for me'. I really salute your curiosity. I dare say only God can arouse it.
ACTS 18: 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
I am not even aware of the cessationists movement that do not believe in miracles any more. I think that is a sad thing given the amount of suffering going on in the world today. This would have been a good time to have prophets and intercessors rise up and pray for our country.
Right before PEV, I another pastor from another country here in the US prophesied about Big angry Bears entering Kenya that he was seeing in a vision. He asked the congregation to pray for Kenya and needed Kenyans to start praying earnestly. Normally I wouldn’t pay much attention to such things, but every now and then I listen and look out for signs.
Agreed. The gift are as relevant as ever.
As a caution, please note there is something spectacular about them, something readily discernible with your 5 senses unlike say , forgiveness of sins. Look at this scripture
Matthew 9:1-7 English Standard Version (ESV)
Jesus Heals a Paralytic
9 And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. 2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 But Jesus, knowing[a] their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home.
Jesus is brought a paralytic and before healing him he forgives his sins. Nobody can see forgiven sins so it may be hard to believe he had actually forgiven him. He then states that forgiveness of sins is easier than healing and if he had done the former, the latter was no big deal. He healed him as well.
Point is the miraculous are spectacular. So they are magnets. You will see fake tongues, prophecies, healings and so forth. Even when they are genuine, believers may be distracted by these. BOHS is not an end to itself, it is a means to living a victorious life. That's something I'd emphasize
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Point is the miraculous are spectacular. So they are magnets. You will see fake tongues, prophecies, healings and so forth. Even when they are genuine, believers may be distracted by these. BOHS is not an end to itself, it is a means to living a victorious life. That's something I'd emphasize
vooke
I think that is the whole point, …”.living a victorious life.” I would think most if not all Christians would like to live a victorious life, maybe I am wrong. Life in itself is challenging and if you are a Christian and you are constantly struggling with issues just like anyone else, but you have that extra pressure to live life accordingly; it can be quite disheartening and you run the risk of running dry spiritually.
If “ there is a clear experience that goes beyond salvation that we should be seeking, an issue so important and distinct enough for the Apostle Paul to randomly ask disciples he hadn’t seen in a while, if they had “received the Holy Spirit” (it was in fact the first thing he asked)….. it would explains a lot of missing links in the life of many believers like me. Seems to me BOHS can help you deal with these issues…. Through POWER or strength, if nothing else……and the fact that it prays for you to the father according to his will …….. That is why it seems important to me. I will continue reading on it and learning as much as I could.
To receive this infilling means that we can receive both the fruits of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22) (such as joy, peace, and self-control) as well as the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:7-10)(such as miracles, healings, and supernatural impartations of wisdom and knowledge)
The church I attend is also Pentecostal although I have never bothered to find out the difference. Those minimum requirements for any church seem reasonable. What do you mean by this: ” Grace+works is a red flag.”
Jesus Heals a Paralytic
9 And getting into a boat he crossed over and came to his own city. 2 And behold, some people brought to him a paralytic, lying on a bed. And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Take heart, my son; your sins are forgiven.” 3 And behold, some of the scribes said to themselves, “This man is blaspheming.” 4 But Jesus, knowing[a] their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? 5 For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Rise and walk’? 6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins”—he then said to the paralytic—“Rise, pick up your bed and go home.” 7 And he rose and went home.
In that scripture, I noticed the man never asked Jesus to forgive his sins, all he hoped for was healing….Jesus then proceeds by forgiving his sins…..from reading that, one would conclude that forgiveness of sins was precursor (or that thing that must occur before) to healing
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Hi mya88,
It's been a while since I ran into somebody genuinely enquiring into BOHS. May the Lord richly reward you. He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek him- Heb 11:6. And I think the difference between Christians, effective Christians is how we differ in 'diligence'. Psalms 42:1 , as the dear panteth after the brook. That should be our portion.
Now, and am not preaching to you but challenging both of us, how much time do you spend with God in a day, time set apart be it prayer, bible study, praising? I think the most precious treasure under the sun is time, and as Jesus said, our hearts are where our treasures be. Whatever consumes most of my time, that's my treasure. Of course we got work, families and resting but I believe a true measure of a diligent God chaser is the amount they SACRIFICE to be with God. I fail badly so help me God. Sometimes I can watch 3 soccer matches in a row, buy my Empress some expensive junk impromptu, and then come Sunday, here I am haggling with God how much to give, and how I badly want to go home and 'rest'....am a work in progress I can tell you. Far from complete. Very far. In fact when I check out, I want my epitaph to read, 'End of Construction....thank you for your Patience'
Grace+ works.
Grace is a topic on its own and much has been written about it but it basically means UNMERITED. We are saved purely on God's expense. We don't deserve it. We never earned it. It is a 100% FREE gift. We don't wash us, clean up and then approach God, we come as we be. That's Grace.
Grace+works on the other hand tells you that over and above what Christ did for us at the cross, man needs to do something to be saved/safe. This is the message of grace+works. It appears harmless but what in PRACTICE it means is you are constantly trying to earn your salvation. Believers under a grace+works teaching are in constant fear of missing heaven/eternity. There is no assurance. This fear is used by the church to control them. The 'something' could be anything; Sabbath keeping for SDAs, door to door preaching for Jehovah's witnesses,submitting to particular teachings or a authority,sleeping with the pastor....anything...what is clear is, that 'something' always stands out as the identifying mark of any denomination/sect.
About the paralytic
You raise an important point. He was forgiven long before he aksd for it. Forgiveness was more important than healing. My focus was on the reaction of those around. Forgiveness startled them, they did not believe it and thought Jesus was blspheming until he healed him as well. The physical evidence impressed their senses more than the forgiveness reached their hearts. The miraculous are physically more spectacular
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Hi mya88,
It's been a while since I ran into somebody genuinely enquiring into BOHS. May the Lord richly reward you. He is a rewarded of those who diligently seek him- Heb 11:6. And I think the difference between Christians, effective Christians is how we differ in 'diligence'. Psalms 42:1 , as the dear panteth after the brook. That should be our portion.
Now, and am not preaching to you but challenging both of us, how much time do you spend with God in a day, time set apart be it prayer, bible study, praising? I think the most precious treasure under the sun is time, and as Jesus said, our hearts are where our treasures be. Whatever consumes most of my time, that's my treasure. Of course we got work, families and resting but I believe a true measure of a diligent God chaser is the amount they SACRIFICE to be with God. I fail badly so help me God. Sometimes I can watch 3 soccer matches in a row, buy my Empress some expensive junk impromptu, and then come Sunday, here I am haggling with God how much to give, and how I badly want to go home and 'rest'....am a work in progress I can tell you. Far from complete. Very far. In fact when I check out, I want my epitaph to read, 'End of Construction....thank you for your Patience'
Vooke
Thank you for those encouraging words. I will keep seeking and working towards it. Maybe we can even declare a fast if need be. That is another thing that I struggle with. When I tried it before, by the end of the day I was almost eating another kid lol. Spending time with God…take heart….most of us fall short there, but as long as you are a work in progress, I think you are still okay. Its when you stop growing completely that you should be worried. .What I have found out is that you cannot go about these matters of God casually as you go about other things in life. These are matters that are serious and are to be taken as such. The problem is when you get these revelations, you have to take a critical look at yourself and how you are living….that is not an easy thing to do, but I believe it to be very necessary. Its always easier to look and judge other people and in essence projecting because we are uncomfortable with being self-critical. But to be self-critical is to grow.
Grace+ works.
Grace is a topic on its own and much has been written about it but it basically means UNMERITED. We are saved purely on God's expense. We don't deserve it. We never earned it. It is a 100% FREE gift. We don't wash us, clean up and then approach God, we come as we be. That's Grace.
Grace+works on the other hand tells you that over and above what Christ did for us at the cross, man needs to do something to be saved/safe. This is the message of grace+works. It appears harmless but what in PRACTICE it means is you are constantly trying to earn your salvation. Believers under a grace+works teaching are in constant fear of missing heaven/eternity. There is no assurance. This fear is used by the church to control them. The 'something' could be anything; Sabbath keeping for SDAs, door to door preaching for Jehovah's witnesses,submitting to particular teachings or a authority,sleeping with the pastor....anything...what is clear is, that 'something' always stands out as the identifying mark of any denomination/sect.
Hahaha eeish "sleeping with the pastor." Yawa that is ridiculous. Now that "grace + works" as you call it is an interesting perspective. I have always wondered why some prayer people , pastors etc ask the congregation to bring something before they get their prayers. That has always been a big turn off because the bible tells us that he gives his gifts freely to those who ask. What do you think about bringing candles and olive oil etc to the pastor? I have heard and seen all sorts of things, mostly in Kenya. Then I have also seen people who send money to some ‘prophet’ who even though she doesn’t ask, expects some sort of thing, I am not sure what. I once asked such a person why she needed to send anything for these continued prayers and she told me that the it’s a thanksgiving sort of thing. I am very weary of such practices. I know of the anointing oil that my church does, but nobody has to bring anything. More on that another time.
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I have enjoyed the thread but I must post on the question of works. Why do protestants demonise them? I open my new testament and every where Jesus opens his mouth, there is a whole stream of "works" flowing from his moth, lol. :)
Faith without works is dead. And faith without Love is utterly useless. Thats not something made up by SDAs, JWs or anyone. Giving people a false assurance that they are saved no matter what (the OSAS-Once saved Always saved, belief) just because they made a certain decision once, is in my view, no better than what prosperity Gospel preachers do. The Bible guarantees no one that they somehow lose their free will once they answer an altar call. That their ability to say "no" to God today disappears just because they said "Yes" yesterday. That happens after death, when we leave this world of choices and the ability to determine our eternal fate, but not a moment before. Until death, we remain as free as Adam was in the garden (when he was perfect) to reject God, and being a Christian never takes that away from us. Which is why Paul was taking care to run his race diligently lest after preaching to others, he himself may be found unworthy of the prize for which he ran. If he, of all people, did not have that assurance, how can christians give themselves this assurance of their own accord?
We are not saved by the works of the Torah, sure. That merely pointed to the way, it was not the way. But this does not mean that all we are required to do is believe. We still must love, out of our own love for Christ and keep from imorality, and grace--not our own inherent "power" which is non-existent--is what makes this possible. Jesus said many times that people would be sent away in the judgment for failure to do what people call "works" like refusing selfishly to help the hungry or those in need that God sends our way; He made our own forgiveness conditional on how well we ourselves forgive others; He warned of serious consequences for burrying and refusing to use the talents God has given us and told us bluntly that unless our righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees who diligently followed the Torah, we could not be saved. The Bible says that those who persevere to the end will be saved and the apostle Paul lists sins that keep one out of heaven. Moreover, he teaches no amount of faith is of ANY value without LOVE which is what matters above all. So the idea that all one needs to do is just match the devils (mere belief) once in their lives to be saved is unsupportable in the teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Jesus certainly expects a whole lot more from those who claim him as Lord than mere belief and he is not shy about tieing in their eternal fate to this expectation.
While it is certainly true that no one can earn even one iota of their salvation, believers in sola fide also go the other extreme and confuse freedom with power. But they forget that even freedom itself is a totally free and unmerited gift, as is our very existence, creation itself. There is nothing we do or have or are that is not a completely free gift. We are creatures. Of our own being, we are truly nothingness itself that Gods power has turned into something. The use of these gifts does not take away from the fact that they are always free gifts. That is why, no matter what we think we give to God or give for his sake, it will alwas be impossible to match or outgive God. Whatever we give and the very ability and opportunity to give, are all his gifts! Always. Some imagine that salvation being a relationship between two free wills--the divine and the human--and therefore a matter of co-operation, submission and CHOICE at all times--is somehow a denial of the power of God or somehow a belief in the power of the human to save himself. But nothing could be farther from the truth.
To believe that one can do anything, even the act of choosing God, or even believing in Jesus except by the power of God himself, which comes to us in the form of the free gift of grace, is an old heresy rejected by the early church long ago. Its not new. But to reject this false belief by going the other extreme that nothing is required from the human, as if he is a robot, and not a spirit, a child of God, is equally untrue.
Salvation is the sharing of the very life of God by humans, an adoption, the REAL indwelling of the Trinity--an intimate communion with God--in the heart of the believer. No one can buy the "right" to share in God's very life. This is not something anyone can give to himself by performing any action whatsoever. It can only be accepted, appreciated, and co-operated with. But neither does this life impose itself on the soul. God is no rapist. When you tell him you are no longer interested, he will leave. Of course he will never cease trying to win you back, But neither will he ignore the freedom he himself has guaranteed you in this life either. The Bible says nothing can separate us from Gods love. However evil we are, Gods love is always knocking. It never grows tired. But love must be accepted for it to transform the person. Indeed, that gift of life which begins as a seedling once a person makes his profession of faith, requires nurturing, watering, indeed protection and not hindrance, in this life, to grow as Jesus parable of the seed shows, and if it is not thwarted, it will grow to be full and bear much fruit. But if thwarted or neglected, it will die.
Salvation is not a legal decree where God pretends he doesnt "see" your sins because supposedly he has punished Jesus on your behalf. Jesus' death as a sacrifice (and a sacrifice is not the same thing as a punishment) literally did the impossible and earned the grace by merit of love, one perfect act of love is answered by another, two divine persons, and God pours his love on Jesus and all those united to him via his humanity, which is all human beings. It is that grace that transforms all those who open the doors of their hearts into partakers of the divine life, adoption as God's own children, through union with Jesus, the only-begotten one. Indeed, it will transform even the fallen world into a new creation, on the last day, much as humans are born with a new life in Jesus, simply by virtue of Jesus making himself a citizen of it.
Our sin is not so great that it cannot be overcome so that we despair about our weaknesses and come up with a doctrine that we are immune from the responsibilities that accompany the priviledge of being creatures of free will, something more than animals. Our iniquity is not more powerful than God's love, and God can transform in actuality--not just pretend by covering our sin over with a blanket but not actually removing--and wash us and fill us with his own holiness. We just have to be OPEN to this, and yes, the ability to be open is, at all times, availed to all of us already as a free gift. Even to those who have never been Christian. Thats why they are able to become Christrian eventually. Why fear then, if Gods help is guaranteed? Thats like when Peter forgot to look at Jesus and started staring at the storm, and therefore forgot to rely on the divine help of Jesus, or even to ask for it, then it was just him and the storm, so the divine help though present did not prevent him from sinking. When he remembered (again, that rememberance is a gift itself, as we cant remind ourselves to seek God if left to our own devices) he did seek the help and found it ready, available. It is not different with salvation. The power is always Gods, but coperation, openness on our part, remain a factor throughout.
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Kadame,
Faith ALONE saves, but it produces works. It is not these works which save, they are just a product of the faith
This formula
FAITH+WORKS= SALVATION
It subtracts from the sufficiency of the cross
This is IT
FAITH=SALVATION+WORKS
This is what sets Christianity apart from ALL religions
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Kadame,
Faith ALONE saves, but it produces works. It is not these works which save, they are just a product of the faith
This formula
FAITH+WORKS= SALVATION
It subtracts from the sufficiency of the cross
This is IT
FAITH=SALVATION+WORKS
This is what sets Christianity apart from ALL religions
vooke, with due respect, I must vigorously disagree. That formula directly contradicts a plain assertion in the Bible. In fact, the only time the words "faith" and "alone" appear together is when the Bible is directly rejecting a salvation formula of Faith alone leading to salvation. If you said: GRACE ALONE= SALVATION, then I would agree. But FAITH alone? No. Even Devils have faith and it did not produce anything good. Simply knowing the truth is not enough. But sometimes I wonder if protestants actually MEAN grace when they speak of faith? How would you distinguish grace from faith, for example, just so we know we are not actually disagreeing but just using different terminology?
The New Testament is rife with descriptions of judgment that has people being left out of heaven for committing evil. The only time faith is vigorously asserted at the expense of works is Romans which refers to works of the Torah/Law, not merely works of Love. Otherwise, if FAITH ALONE was the slavation formula, then Jesus was lying about what would happen on Judgmenmt when people would be sent away , NOT simply for not believing, but for failure to do GOOD like sending away the hungry when you had enough to feed them.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/James%202:24
James 2:24 (KJ21) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see then how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:24 (ASV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
James 2:24 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a man is justified (pronounced righteous before God) through what he does and not alone through faith [through works of obedience as well as by what he believes].
James 2:24 (BRG) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:24 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 So you see that a person is shown to be righteous through faithful actions and not through faith alone.
James 2:24 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone.
James 2:24 (CEV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You can now see that we please God by what we do and not only by what we believe.
James 2:24 (DARBY) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see that a man is justified on the principle of works, and not on the principle of faith only.
James 2:24 (DLNT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Do you all see that a person is declared-righteous by works, and not by faith alone?
James 2:24 (DRA) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
James 2:24 (ERV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 So you see that people are made right with God by what they do. They cannot be made right by faith alone.
James 2:24 (ESV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (ESVUK) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (EXB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 So you see that people are ·made right with God [justified] by ·what they do [their works], not by faith only.
James 2:24 (GNV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see then how that of works a man is justified, and not of faith only.
James 2:24 (GW) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person receives God’s approval because of what he does, not only because of what he believes.
James 2:24 (GNT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see, then, that it is by our actions that we are put right with God, and not by our faith alone.
James 2:24 (HCSB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (ICB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 So you see that a person is made right with God by the things he does. He cannot be made right by faith only.
James 2:24 (ISV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You observe that a person is justified through actions and not through faith alone.
James 2:24-25 (PHILLIPS) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24-25 A man is justified before God by what he does as well as by what he believes. Rahab who was a prostitute and a foreigner has been quoted as an example of faith, yet surely it was her action that pleased God, when she welcomed Joshua’s reconnoitring party and got them safely back by a different route.
James 2:24 (JUB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith.
James 2:24 (KJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:24 (AKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:24 (LEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (TLB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 So you see, a man is saved by what he does, as well as by what he believes.
James 2:21-24 (MSG) | In Context | Whole Chapter
21-24 Wasn’t our ancestor Abraham “made right with God by works” when he placed his son Isaac on the sacrificial altar? Isn’t it obvious that faith and works are yoked partners, that faith expresses itself in works? That the works are “works of faith”? The full meaning of “believe” in the Scripture sentence, “Abraham believed God and was set right with God,” includes his action. It’s that mesh of believing and acting that got Abraham named “God’s friend.” Is it not evident that a person is made right with God not by a barren faith but by faith fruitful in works?
James 2:24 (MEV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see then how by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
James 2:24 (MOUNCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see hora? that hoti a person anthr?pos is justified dikaio? by ek works ergon and kai not ou by ek faith pistis alone monon.
James 2:24 (NOG) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person receives God’s approval because of what he does, not only because of what he believes.
James 2:24 (NABRE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NASB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NCV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 So you see that people are made right with God by what they do, not by faith only.
James 2:24 (NET) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NIRV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 So you see that a person is considered right with God by what they do. It doesn’t happen only because they believe.
James 2:24 (NIV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NIVUK) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NKJV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
James 2:24 (NLV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 A man becomes right with God by what he does and not by faith only.
James 2:24 (NLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NRSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NRSVA) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NRSVACE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (NRSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Yaakov 2:24 (OJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that from Ma’asim [of Emunah] a man is YITZDAK IM HASHEM and not from [sterilely unpartnered] “Emunah” alone. [i.e., mere intellectual assent]
James 2:24 (RSV) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (RSVCE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
James 2:24 (VOICE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Just like our father in the faith, we are made right with God through good works, not simply by what we believe or think.
James 2:24 (WEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see then that by works, a man is justified, and not only by faith.
James 2:24 (WE) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 You see, a man is a good man because of the things he does, and not just because he believes.
James 2:24 (WYC) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see that a man is justified of works, and not of faith only.
James 2:24 (YLT) | In Context | Whole Chapter
24 Ye see, then, that out of works is man declared righteous, and not out of faith only;
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vooke, with due respect, I must vigorously disagree. That formula directly contradicts a plain assertion in the Bible. In fact, the only time the words "faith" and "alone" appear together is when the Bible is directly rejecting a salvation formula of Faith alone leading to salvation. If you said: GRACE ALONE= SALVATION, then I would agree. But FAITH alone? No. Even Devils have faith and it did not produce anything good. Simply knowing the truth is not enough. But sometimes I wonder if protestants actually MEAN grace when they speak of faith? How would you distinguish grace from faith, for example, just so we know we are not actually disagreeing but just using different terminology?
The New Testament is rife with descriptions of judgment that has people being left out of heaven for committing evil. The only time faith is vigorously asserted at the expense of works is Romans which refers to works of the Torah/Law, not merely works of Love. Otherwise, if FAITH ALONE was the slavation formula, then Jesus was lying about what would happen on Judgmenmt when people would be sent away , NOT simply for not believing, but for failure to do GOOD like sending away the hungry when you had enough to feed them.
Kadame,
It is OK to differ.
Faith and Grace are different but related concepts. Faith is man's response to what God has done, belief, and Grace is what God has done; reaching out to fallen man.
Grace is accessed by faith. Christ died but it is 'whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but has everlasting life' not all humanity. GRACE is God offering His Son, Faith is believing in His son.
So may be I should have clarified when I said faith alone saves. I have removed the translations of James 2:24 that you shared because am trying to make my post as short. I hope and pray you don't mind.
The devils don't have faith, they have knowledge of who God is, they rebelled against Him and as such they stand condemned. They don't have any means of getting back to God, not repentance, they are ALREADY judged, just awaiting the lake of fire. Think of a death row convict awaiting the electric chair after exhausting all avenues of appeal. Am not saying they appealed :)
You make hasty generalities about Romans and faith. The epistle lays foundational doctrines of Christianity and it appeals to both Gentiles and Jews. And no, it is not the 'only time'. Faith minus works is a thread that runs through ALL Pauline epistles. Makes interesting reading because he wrote primarily for Gentiles like me and you.
I don't know what comes to your mind when Law is mentioned but in Romans, Paul really puts it in its place. He even reminds us about LOVE, the greatest commandment right there in Romans. Now, this is a lengthy topic and if you don't mind, I will proceed and support EVERY statement I make with scriptures henceforth.
James 2:24 simply reiterates what I just said; FAITH produces WORKS and salvation. Please read the entire chapter 2. Abraham and Rahab are given as examples. Abraham was commanded to offer Isaac. His faith led him to do it till God stopped him. Rahab, she believed the spies and knew they would bring down the city. Then out of that, she received the spies and was saved.
There is a metaphor Jesus gave of the vine and branches. A believer grafted to Christ MUST produce fruit. But the fruit don't attach him to the vine, it is a product of his attachment/relationship with Christ.
I believe sinners will be judged by God, especially willful sinning AFTER coming to his knowledge. This is perfectly captured in Hebrews 6
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vooke, about your last statement: willful sinning after relationship with Jesus and judgment. I dont understand. If they will be judged for willful sinning, what are the consequences?
My point is that a person still can put aside the gift of God even after accepting it, there is no guarantee that one cannot reject Jesus because one already accepted him. Free will is not a one time thing and you are done. God never imposes and Paul is constantly telling believers to strive for their crown because it is apparently not guaranteed, to him or them, because he alludes to the possibility of losing it. Free will does not disappear, but faith can die if the person does not nurture it by remaining in relationship with Jesus and simply assumes that one decision was enough. One must persevere to the end, and do all the things Jesus said. Jesus spoke about more than belief. He also said, one must be baptized, eat his flesh, not turn away the needy, love, forgive others etc in order to be accepted by him in heaven...in order to receive mercy/forgiveness... in order to be part of his kingdom etc.
So one must believe AND love, and love is the most important, the belief is just the door. Just one part of that formulae is not enough. For example, when he says that he will say "Enter into the home of my father", because the person fed/clothed him/gave him to drink, he is not saying that this is ALL the person must do. If I were to take this verse alone, I would determine that all I need to do is feed the hungry to be saved and dismiss John 3:16, but both are equally true. We must believe, we must love. Belief is like you said a response, but to me it is just the FIRST response. We need to continually respond to God when he meets us in our daily lives, not just once when he asks us to be christian. The "whatsoever you do to others, you do to me" teaching demonstrates one of the ways in which God comes to us and we reject him.
Yes, about Romans. Paul spoke to gentiles indeed, but this does not mean christian gentiles were oblivious to the foundations of christianity in the old covenant or to the old testament books/faith. The law refers to the law of Moses, is my belief, as this is what it is continuously called in the new testament. But there is a higher "law", and this is love and the fulfilment of the old law which was mostly a bunch of rituals devoid of love. Love is above all, and love is what Jesus asks us to do when he says, forgive, give etc. Paul himself counts faith as nothing without Love.
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vooke, about your last statement: willful sinning after relationship with Jesus and judgment. I dont understand. If they will be judged for willful sinning, what are the consequences?
I meant in as many words rebellion just like in Eden. You know too well what is expected of you and you choose to go against that. The consequences are eternal damnation
My point is that a person still can put aside the gift of God even after accepting it, there is no guarantee that one cannot reject Jesus because one already accepted him. Free will is not a one time thing and you are done. God never imposes and Paul is constantly telling believers to strive for their crown because it is apparently not guaranteed, to him or them, because he alludes to the possibility of losing it. Free will does not disappear, but faith can die if the person does not nurture it by remaining in relationship with Jesus and simply assumes that one decision was enough. One must persevere to the end, and do all the things Jesus said.
I agree. Nobody can snatch you out of Jesus' hands,,but you can walk away from all that
Jesus spoke about more than belief. He also said, one must be baptized, eat his flesh, not turn away the needy, love, forgive others etc in order to be accepted by him in heaven...in order to receive mercy/forgiveness... in order to be part of his kingdom etc.
Yes I agree Jesus taught a lot. But one should be careful like I told Nuff Sed in reading His message. Severally he spoke to Jews still under the law. He kept the Jewish feasts, sabbath, was circumcised,he told a healed leper to offer a sacrifice, Pharisees to CONTINUE tithing, and Jews to listen Pharisees teaching Moses but not to follow their lifestyles....then at most of the times they were universally applicable.
Concerning justice and mercy, he wondered how the very professors of the Law would miss these big concepts staring at them while they meticulously tithed milligrams of spices
So one must believe AND love, and love is the most important, the belief is just the door. Just one part of that formulae is not enough. For example, when he says that he will say "Enter into the home of my father", because the person fed/clothed him/gave him to drink, he is not saying that this is ALL the person must do. If I were to take this verse alone, I would determine that all I need to do is feed the hungry to be saved and dismiss John 3:16, but both are equally true. We must believe, we must love. Belief is like you said a response, but to me it is just the FIRST response. We need to continually respond to God when he meets us in our daily lives, not just once when he asks us to be christian. The "whatsoever you do to others, you do to me" teaching demonstrates one of the ways in which God comes to us and we reject him.
Am not discounting the value of all those good things, love and all, but they don't EARN you salvation, faith in Christ does.
Acts 10. Cornelius was a good guy by all counts, he was devout, loving and giving alms Mother Theresa grade, well spoken of by Jewry yet an angel appears to him and tells him to send for Peter who will tell him what to do. A good devout man needing the gospel? That blew me away.
No amount of love can save you. Christ did not merely teach us how to love, he could have done that without dying you know. It is His righteousness that is IMPUTED on us upon believing that makes us acceptable before God.
Romans 3:21-22 (KJV)
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Philippians 3:9 (KJV)
I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith
Yes, about Romans. Paul spoke to gentiles indeed, but this does not mean christian gentiles were oblivious to the foundations of christianity in the old covenant or to the old testament books/faith. The law refers to the law of Moses, is my belief, as this is what it is continuously called in the new testament.
Romans was written to men who were not UNDER the law in the first place. So the works spoken there are not necessarily Mosaic legalism
But there is a higher "law", and this is love and the fulfilment of the old law which was mostly a bunch of rituals devoid of love. Love is above all, and love is what Jesus asks us to do when he says, forgive, give etc. Paul himself counts faith as nothing without Love.
I take you back to Cornelius. He loved men, he loved God, he was loved by Jews. He was a good guy. His prayers reached heaven. He was heard. I don't discount the value of love, just that no amount of love can save a man. If it could, I'd struggle to find any relevance in the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ my Lord and my God
Paul does not count faith without love as nothing. Please note a few things;
1 Corinthians 13:2-3 (KJV)
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. 3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1. It is not the miracle, faith, prophecy, wisdom that is nothing without love but himself, further expressed as 'it profiteth me nothing'
2. The faith in context here is the faith for the miraculous which is the subject not the saving faith with which a sinner reaches out to God. He is saying 'though I could do great miracles like moving mountains'. Makes much sense since he is in the middle of spiritual gifts discourse
3. Much as Paul talks hypothetically, some things stand out; good deeds and sacrifice, the commonest indicators of love among men while beneficial to others are utterly unprofitable to the doer. This is no excuse to shun charity and sacrifice of course but to understand the same ought to be exercised out of love. That's a sermon for one Lord's Day 8)
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vooke, considering what you said in the first two points on the possibility of walking away from Christ, I don't think you and I fundamentally disagree. We both affirm freedom in accepting/rejecting the gift of God, and also the fact that this is in fact a gift...not something possible for any human to earn. I think we just go about explaining that differently, or place different emphases on different aspects. To clarify, I DON'T believe any one earns or can earn grace/salvation. Because grace is the very life of God poured into our souls. The only one who "earned" this was Jesus by giving a perfect act of love (sacrifice) to the father in the place of all humans. We gain this life in our souls only through uniting with Jesus, not on our own by any means, thats why the church is called the very body of Christ. "I am the vine, you are the branches" Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! To that extent, I don't believe our views differ all that much as I had assumed froom the initial post on works. It is Christ who carries us, forgives us, feeds us, sanctifies us, raises us up from death, and glorifies us, not we ourselves so yes 100% true.
Where I disagree is the issue of the Gospels. To me, they are FOUNDATIONAL. Jesus words and life. to everything else, be it in the new or old testament. I dont dismiss anything Jesus said regarding the kingdom of God, heaven, or judgment, or love since these are not jewish, but universal, and doing that would be dangerous. Jesus did not just come to teach Jews and die for gentiles, he did both for both and his teachings far surpass mere reiteration of the old covenant. He is the centre, his words shape the interpretation of ALL others, be they prophets or apostles, not the other way around. When he referred to the law, it was clear, but he did far more than teach on the old covenant. The bulk of his teaching is love...he is the fullness of revelation. He brought a new kingdom and was not simply reiterating old prophets.
Besides that, I agree with all you said in the last post regarding slavation.
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vooke, considering what you said in the first two points on the possibility of walking away from Christ, I don't think you and I fundamentally disagree. We both affirm freedom in accepting/rejecting the gift of God, and also the fact that this is in fact a gift...not something possible for any human to earn. I think we just go about explaining that differently, or place different emphases on different aspects. To clarify, I DON'T believe any one earns or can earn grace/salvation. Because grace is the very life of God poured into our souls. The only one who "earned" this was Jesus by giving a perfect act of love (sacrifice) to the father in the place of all humans. We gain this life in our souls only through uniting with Jesus, not on our own by any means, thats why the church is called the very body of Christ. Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! To that extent, I don't believe our views differ all that much as I had assumed froom the initial post on works. It is Christ who carries us, forgives us, feeds us, sanctifies us, raises us up from death, and glorifies us, not we ourselves so yes 100% true.
Kadame,
It is well.
The question of whether a Christian can end up in hell has been hotly debated over the years. Calvinism says you can't, OSAS, once-saved-always-saved thing. Then we have conditional salvation; you are saved and you remain saved if you remain in faith. Very compelling arguments have been advanced by both sides. I have been on both sides of the fence and after much searching, I think one can lose his reward, but at the same time, one can know now whether they have any reward. That's why I boldy say am vooke and am born again and Jesus is Lord...blessed assurance
On to other matters.
Am very particular about church attendance. I get around 10 here and around twice that much on .com. On good days,there I can go up to 80.So you can imagine this thread hitting over 300 and the only difference is we had Holy Ghost right here. That's what I meant by dunamis. Sema amen! O:-)
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vooke, considering what you said in the first two points on the possibility of walking away from Christ, I don't think you and I fundamentally disagree. We both affirm freedom in accepting/rejecting the gift of God, and also the fact that this is in fact a gift...not something possible for any human to earn. I think we just go about explaining that differently, or place different emphases on different aspects. To clarify, I DON'T believe any one earns or can earn grace/salvation. Because grace is the very life of God poured into our souls. The only one who "earned" this was Jesus by giving a perfect act of love (sacrifice) to the father in the place of all humans. We gain this life in our souls only through uniting with Jesus, not on our own by any means, thats why the church is called the very body of Christ. Apart from Christ, we can do nothing! To that extent, I don't believe our views differ all that much as I had assumed froom the initial post on works. It is Christ who carries us, forgives us, feeds us, sanctifies us, raises us up from death, and glorifies us, not we ourselves so yes 100% true.
Kadame,
It is well.
The question of whether a Christian can end up in hell has been hotly debated over the years. Calvinism says you can't, OSAS, once-saved-always-saved thing. Then we have conditional salvation; you are saved and you remain saved if you remain in faith. Very compelling arguments have been advanced by both sides. I have been on both sides of the fence and after much searching, I think one can lose his reward, but at the same time, one can know now whether they have any reward. That's why I boldy say am vooke and am born again and Jesus is Lord...blessed assurance
On to other matters.
Am very particular about church attendance. I get around 10 here and around twice that much on .com. On good days,there I can go up to 80.So you can imagine this thread hitting over 300 and the only difference is we had Holy Ghost right here. That's what I meant by dunamis. Sema amen! O:-)
LOL! Weka mpesa hapa katithe katumwe pap! :)
I like how you have put that: Yes, one can lose his reward. However one can know now whether they have a reward to lose in the first place. :) Couldnt agree more.
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On to other matters.
Am very particular about church attendance. I get around 10 here and around twice that much on .com. On good days,there I can go up to 80.So you can imagine this thread hitting over 300 and the only difference is we had Holy Ghost right here. That's what I meant by dunamis. Sema amen! O:-)
vooke
That this thread has gotten extra attention just goes to show that most people have had the same questions or are at least curious about BOHS. That , I think is a good thing.
From reading about the three Christianity movements and their stance on BOHS, I think my beliefs are a mix of both the charismatic and third wave, although the third wave movement seems to be the most prominent.
All three do acknowledge BOHS in some form or another, and their differences to me seem not to matter that much. The Pentecostals however may be a bit snobbish or elitist.
My question to is…..why is baptism by water still necessary and common practice in most denominations? Paul referred to it as baptism of repentance. The scripture also tells us that if we verbally repent for our sins and ask for forgiveness we will receive it. Is water baptism still necessary after BOHS?
In Acts 8, Philip baptizes the Ethiopian eunuch with water even though he had many times before had BOHS.
ACTS 19: 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
ACTS 8: 36. “As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized.” 38. And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
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LOL! Weka mpesa hapa katithe katumwe pap! :)
I like how you have put that: Yes, one can lose his reward. However one can know now whether they have a reward to lose in the first place. :) Couldnt agree more.
Kadame
From my reading so far, I found out that under the charismatic Christians, include Methodist, Adventist and catholics….so, do you and other Catholics believe in BOHS.
I have seen in movies and on TV of catholic priest’s doing exorcism. Have you watched that mover “the exorcism of Emily-Rose.” The priest is chanting in some language that we cannot understand…what are they saying and what languages are those?
Daily Bread has been silent on thread....I wonder what that means. Is it that SDA doesn't believe in BOHS?
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vooke
That this thread has gotten extra attention just goes to show that most people have had the same questions or are at least curious about BOHS. That , I think is a good thing.
From reading about the three Christianity movements and their stance on BOHS, I think my beliefs are a mix of both the charismatic and third wave, although the third wave movement seems to be the most prominent.
All three do acknowledge BOHS in some form or another, and their differences to me seem not to matter that much. The Pentecostals however may be a bit snobbish or elitist.
Hi mya88,
I agree, BOHS and Holy Spirit are some of the most misunderstood aspects of God. The distinction between Pentecostals, Charismatics, new-Pentecostals, it escapes me. I would not know where to place myself
My question to is…..why is baptism by water still necessary and common practice in most denominations? Paul referred to it as baptism of repentance. The scripture also tells us that if we verbally repent for our sins and ask for forgiveness we will receive it. Is water baptism still necessary after BOHS?
In Acts 8, Philip baptizes the Ethiopian eunuch with water even though he had many times before had BOHS.
ACTS 19: 3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?” “John’s baptism,” they replied. 4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.
ACTS 8: 36. “As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. What can stand in the way of my being baptized.” 38. And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
The necessity of water baptism
Baptism is necessary because Jesus commanded it.
Matthew 28:19 (KJV)
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Water baptism is necessary because the disciples practiced it right from Pentecost.
Acts 2:38 (KJV)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost
Jesus went through it as well. This in itself is a weak reason for being baptized seeing he was also circumcised, kept Jewish feasts and sabbath and so forth, but it is worth studying. Immediately he came out of water, Holy Spirit came upon him and he 'officially' kicked off his public ministry. That is quite telling
Matthew 3:16 (KJV)
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
In fact, this is recorded by ALL the gospels- Mark 1:10,Luke 3:22 and John 1:32. This tells me the incidence was so significant that it was etched in their memories.
I feel like I should correct what am persuaded are erroneous teachings surrounding baptism
1. Baptism does not wash away sins.
Please read
Acts 2:38 (KJV) Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It appears like Peter is saying REPENT,GET BAPTIZED so your sins may be forgiven and you may receive the gift of BOHS. But in Acts 10, Cornelius and his family received BOHS before baptism
2. Closely related to #1 baptism does not save
You won't miss heaven because you was not baptized
Ephesians 5:25-26 (KJV)
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Though baptism is equally a figure of cleansing, this verse is popularly misquoted to show that baptism cleanses and sanctifies. But note....'by the word'. It is the word of God that cleanses us not water. Water baptism at most makes you wet and cleaner if you was dirty not to mention messing your makeup 8)
3. Water baptism is a condition for BOHS
Again, a casual reading of Acts 2:38 suggests get BAPTIZED so you can receive BOHS. But in Acts 10, Cornelius received BOHS before water baptism. But I have seen people receiving BOHS right there in the pool. They go down and come up slain and have to be carried away speaking in tongues ( caution: this is my subjective experience)
If you notice, I haven't answered your question. WHY is this act necessary?
Baptism is a rite, an external declaration of the inner realities. A believer being born again dies to self and is raised anew. This happens upon believing and baptism reflects just that. Former/old mya88 goes down and up comes a new creature. This closely mirrors Jesus death, burial and resurrection in power.
This verse captures that;
Romans 6:3-4 (KJV)
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
So baptism is a public confession of faith. I know kadame would differ but I believe ONLY grown ups should do it. Kids can't possibly confess a faith they can't comprehend. I also believe that it should be immersion as in apostolic times. This best captures the realities represented.
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Kadame
From my reading so far, I found out that under the charismatic Christians, include Methodist, Adventist and catholics….so, do you and other Catholics believe in BOHS.
I have seen in movies and on TV of catholic priest’s doing exorcism. Have you watched that mover “the exorcism of Emily-Rose.” The priest is chanting in some language that we cannot understand…what are they saying and what languages are those?
Daily Bread has been silent on thread....I wonder what that means. Is it that SDA doesn't believe in BOHS?
Mya,
Interesting discussion. Incidentally, today marks a special "Holy Spirit" period in our church. The Sunday after this Sunday will be Pentecost and Yesterday (Thursday) was Ascension day. Catholics generally mark the nine days between these two days by praying to the Holy Spirit like the apostles did after acension when they were waiting for the "paraclete" or "consoler" as Jesus had promised them before he ascended. They were scared and alone and met in the upper room praying together and as you know, on the tenth day, the tongues of fire came! The Holy Spirit descended and they came out bold and preached and spoke in tongues, thus was born the church. I find it interesting that y'all should be discussing this just as I get ready to start my nine-day devotion to the Holy Spirit...actually, you've reminded me, I had forgotten. :D Here is what I will be praying for the next nine days, asking for the gifts of the Holy Spirit: https://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/pentecost/seven.htm I think I will ask, along with the gifts of the Holy Spirit, also the baptism, after your discussions.
As for catholic charismatics and others, I don't disbelieve the charismatics, or anyone with a unique or different way of praying than the usual. To me the better prayer is that which is effective, not that which follows any model. As to the church's attitude, I know the church embraces them. In fact, the Pope's official preacher is a serious member/leader in the movement and insists on the necessity of baptism of the Holy Spirit. See what he has to say here: https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/library_article/1028/Baptism_in_the_Holy_Spirit___Fr._Cantalamessa.html I dont personally know any charismatics, but if I stumble onto their meetings, I will join. Long ago I did stubmle into one, but by then I was very biased against such things and just dismissed them as odd.
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kadame aka Bella, mya88 and Daily Bread,
I would like to share this small book on the subject of Spiritual gifts especially tongues because you all believe in IT. simple but powerful
http://www.ekklesia.lt/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Kenneth-E-Hagin-WhyTongues.pdf
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Thank you.
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kadame aka Bella, mya88 and Daily Bread,
I would like to share this small book on the subject of Spiritual gifts especially tongues because you all believe in IT. simple but powerful
http://www.ekklesia.lt/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Kenneth-E-Hagin-WhyTongues.pdf
vooke
Thanks. When I get some time, I will read up on it....I am still very much interested in this and may have more questions afterwards.