Nipate
Forum => Kenya Discussion => Topic started by: MOON Ki on February 05, 2015, 05:16:05 AM
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Or maybe it is just a spring-roll ....
Wang Yi, the Chinese "Foreign Minister" must have done some very tough talking when he was in Nairobi.
Watch this:
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Transfer-of-Prisoners-Bill-Parliament-Aden-Duale/-/1064/2613534/-/13hc0wlz/-/index.html
And watch the Kenyans get screwed again, but willingly.
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Kweli we are been done a "bendover".
The headline is misleading. Only mentions Kenyans in foreign jails but the main topic here is foreigners in Kenyan jails to be tried in their own countries. Those Chinese "spies" will soon be on KQ headed for Beijing to their freedom.
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Wait until they disappear into the mass of 1.6bn people and then send Nation Newspapers to follow their cases in Sichuan. We are already being done because Chinese companies have unfettered access to Kenyan airwaves but Kenyan media may not even have a correspondent in China. Chinese copied the designs of JSF 35 and have made a copy, forcing the yankees back to the drawing board to make adjustments. Just think, they control the Kenyan internet (through Huawei) so this completes the control. The reason they could bring down internet in Kenya. So much for the clueless Digital Njuekalis!
Sketie
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For a country that keeps lending us trillions kshs...it's not a bad idea to be owned.
Chinese influence in kenya and Africa has been IMMENSELY positive.
In 10yrs..chinese have done what britons and other europeans have been unable to do in centuries.
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For a country that keeps lending us trillions kshs...it's not a bad idea to be owned.
Chinese influence in kenya and Africa has been IMMENSELY positive.
In 10yrs..chinese have done what britons and other europeans have been unable to do in centuries.
Should the west do the same because its our major export destination,eurobond owner and source of our tourism and remittances?kumbaff,
Without Prejudice.
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In 10yrs..chinese have done what britons and other europeans have been unable to do in centuries.
Interesting. But let us try and do an objective comparison. Let us start with Kenya. What are the great things the Chinese have done there?
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Or maybe it is just a spring-roll ....
Wang Yi, the Chinese "Foreign Minister" must have done some very tough talking when he was in Nairobi.
Watch this:
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Transfer-of-Prisoners-Bill-Parliament-Aden-Duale/-/1064/2613534/-/13hc0wlz/-/index.html (http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Transfer-of-Prisoners-Bill-Parliament-Aden-Duale/-/1064/2613534/-/13hc0wlz/-/index.html)
And watch the Kenyans get screwed again, but willingly.
That's amusing. Because Kithure Kindiki already confirmed to the Brits that Kenyan prisons are a cruel and unusual punishment. Why is Duale proposing an inhumane law? I take it Kindiki is strongly opposed right off the bat.
SENATE Majority Leader Kindiki Kithure testified in support of fugitive business- man Yagnesh Devani, and told a UK court that Kenya’s prisons were “dangerous”.
Devani called Kindiki as his expert witness as he fought off a request by the Kenya government to the British government to extradite him to face justice in Kenya. Kindiki admitted to the court that Devani had paid him money to testify but said he could not remember how much.
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/article-188525/kenyan-prisons-are-dangerous-kindiki
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In the last 10yrs china has grown to become one of biggest lenders, our biggest trade partner and our biggest donor (if you consider they huge % of their loans are grants). Their contractors have been turning over projects on time and budget both for private and gov sector. If we spend the next 10yrs working closely with China...we will do far more.
Interesting. But let us try and do an objective comparison. Let us start with Kenya. What are the great things the Chinese have done there?
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In the last 10yrs china has grown to become one of biggest lenders, our biggest trade partner and our biggest donor (if you consider they huge % of their loans are grants). Their contractors have been turning over projects on time and budget both for private and gov sector. If we spend the next 10yrs working closely with China...we will do far more.
One of biggest lenders. So? If that is great, how much has Kenyan borrowed from elsewhere over the 50 years?
Wow. Let's take a look at the figures. "Biggest trade partner" because we import a lot of cheap junk? The trade imbalance is huge. Kenya exports very little to China; in fact it exports more to places like Afghanistan and Pakistan!
biggest donor (if you consider they huge % of their loans are grants).
Total nonsense. Where did you get your figures? Let's see them here.
So they are building things on time? There you were stating that they have done more than the West has done in hundreds of years. Take a look at Kenyan infrastructure (roads and railways), hospitals, schools ... where did most of that come from to start with?
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When you borrow, you are a slave. Anything the master says goes...
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When you borrow, you are a slave. Anything the master says goes...
They are giving us loans (SGR)to import products (Rails) from their industries,we make profits for their banks and jobs for their industries,
Without Prejudice.
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Thats what Greeks did. Now they are struggling to repay billions. We need industries to build the materials used for these projects. When china provides everythign - including laborers, their intersts are beyond reproach.
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Don't conflate our failures with China. Africa need Loans. Africa need Aid. Africa need Trade. China has for last 10 yrs provided that.
There is no doubt that China has just lent us 1 trillion shs in the last few yrs. Why hasn't the US done the same..when their economy is bigger than China. If we misuse the loan..or engage in corruption..that is our problem..but China has given us their money in really favourable terms. When rest of world think Africa or Kenya is a basket case...China has trusted us with their money.
On Aid..China loans are 60% grant. That is free money. China is also one of biggest donors now to multilateral agencies including UN.
Trade...nobody has stop kenya from exporting...China is Africa biggest importer..importing Oil/Copper/Gold/ name it. Kenya just has to figure out how to balance their trade. In any case many folks are now able to import cheap and quality machinery and equipment from china..something that was impossible when Europe or America was the world factory.
Bottomline..Do not expect chinese to wipe your bottom when you can't even find it.
In my view there is very little to talk about when it come to western partners...you just need to check the data for the last 15yrs when Africa has engaged with Chinese...and for the first time...the narrative is of "Africa Rising"...all indicators are up....africa economies are growing..thanks to Chinese paying a premium for our raw materials and lending us massive amount of monies...to lay infrastructure.
In the last 10yrs china has grown to become one of biggest lenders, our biggest trade partner and our biggest donor (if you consider they huge % of their loans are grants). Their contractors have been turning over projects on time and budget both for private and gov sector. If we spend the next 10yrs working closely with China...we will do far more.
One of biggest lenders. So? If that is great, how much has Kenyan borrowed from elsewhere over the 50 years?
Wow. Let's take a look at the figures. "Biggest trade partner" because we import a lot of cheap junk? The trade imbalance is huge. Kenya exports very little to China; in fact it exports more to places like Afghanistan and Pakistan!
biggest donor (if you consider they huge % of their loans are grants).
Total nonsense. Where did you get your figures? Let's see them here.
So they are building things on time? There you were stating that they have done more than the West has done in hundreds of years. Take a look at Kenyan infrastructure (roads and railways), hospitals, schools ... where did most of that come from to start with?
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You do not suppose there is a steel industry that can supply SGR with steel rails on time and cost hidden somewhere in Kenya. China will buy our sand, timber, cement but will import stuff they cannot source locally.
I like how China has found a formulae to work with our incredibly corrupt countries. The western nations with similar distrust for our gov has chosen to give money to NGOS..majority of which are worse than our gov. The Chinese have chosen to deal with Chinese contractors...who seem to deliver on time and cost.
They are giving us loans (SGR)to import products (Rails) from their industries,we make profits for their banks and jobs for their industries,
Without Prejudice.
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You do not suppose there is a steel industry that can supply SGR with steel rails
We should have built that steel industry to supply those rails across east Africa before we built that rail...that's what Chinese and Americans did before they built their rails,ama you think it dropped like manna from heaven?
Without Prejudice.
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Don't conflate our failures with China. Africa need Loans. Africa need Aid. Africa need Trade. China has for last 10 yrs provided that.
There is no doubt that China has just lent us 1 trillion shs in the last few yrs. Why hasn't the US done the same..when their economy is bigger than China. If we misuse the loan..or engage in corruption..that is our problem..but China has given us their money in really favourable terms. When rest of world think Africa or Kenya is a basket case...China has trusted us with their money.
On Aid..China loans are 60% grant. That is free money. China is also one of biggest donors now to multilateral agencies including UN.
Trade...nobody has stop kenya from exporting...China is Africa biggest importer..importing Oil/Copper/Gold/ name it. Kenya just has to figure out how to balance their trade. In any case many folks are now able to import cheap and quality machinery and equipment from china..something that was impossible when Europe or America was the world factory.
Bottomline..Do not expect chinese to wipe your bottom when you can't even find it.
In my view there is very little to talk about when it come to western partners...you just need to check the data for the last 15yrs when Africa has engaged with Chinese...and for the first time...the narrative is of "Africa Rising"...all indicators are up....africa economies are growing..thanks to Chinese paying a premium for our raw materials and lending us massive amount of monies...to lay infrastructure.
In the last 10yrs china has grown to become one of biggest lenders, our biggest trade partner and our biggest donor (if you consider they huge % of their loans are grants). Their contractors have been turning over projects on time and budget both for private and gov sector. If we spend the next 10yrs working closely with China...we will do far more.
One of biggest lenders. So? If that is great, how much has Kenyan borrowed from elsewhere over the 50 years?
Wow. Let's take a look at the figures. "Biggest trade partner" because we import a lot of cheap junk? The trade imbalance is huge. Kenya exports very little to China; in fact it exports more to places like Afghanistan and Pakistan!
biggest donor (if you consider they huge % of their loans are grants).
Total nonsense. Where did you get your figures? Let's see them here.
So they are building things on time? There you were stating that they have done more than the West has done in hundreds of years. Take a look at Kenyan infrastructure (roads and railways), hospitals, schools ... where did most of that come from to start with?
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Don't conflate our failures with China. Africa need Loans. Africa need Aid. Africa need Trade. China has for last 10 yrs provided that.
There is no doubt that China has just lent us 1 trillion shs in the last few yrs. Why hasn't the US done the same..when their economy is bigger than China. If we misuse the loan..or engage in corruption..that is our problem..but China has given us their money in really favourable terms. When rest of world think Africa or Kenya is a basket case...China has trusted us with their money.
On Aid..China loans are 60% grant. That is free money. China is also one of biggest donors now to multilateral agencies including UN.
Trade...nobody has stop kenya from exporting...China is Africa biggest importer..importing Oil/Copper/Gold/ name it. Kenya just has to figure out how to balance their trade. In any case many folks are now able to import cheap and quality machinery and equipment from china..something that was impossible when Europe or America was the world factory.
Bottomline..Do not expect chinese to wipe your bottom when you can't even find it.
In my view there is very little to talk about when it come to western partners...you just need to check the data for the last 15yrs when Africa has engaged with Chinese...and for the first time...the narrative is of "Africa Rising"...all indicators are up....africa economies are growing..thanks to Chinese paying a premium for our raw materials and lending us massive amount of monies...to lay infrastructure.
(1) Interms of loans interest rates in Japan,Europe and N America are very low,that's why our $2BN EB was oversubscribed 8X by the west so if there is any feasible project,capital is available and Chinese are investing in Africa to earn better interest and gain more money through corrupt deals,
(2) Interms of trade,we are getting 100BN remittances from the west,majority tourist and export market from the west,what are we getting from China interms of trade,fx and tourists,
(3) Grants,USA grants not loans to Kenya is over 80BN annually,that's just one western country,what about total of the rest vs China?infact Aid to trade is for a nation to invest where it gains profit through facilitation so its not free lunch,
(4) How many free trade or preferential bilateral agreements do we have with China to make our exports competitive?Infact if am exporting to USA or Norway there are few currency controls what about China?
Lastly,China just like many Asian countries started growing in late 1970s when it shifted from collective to private ownership that attracted trade and FDI from the west which has led to massive economic growth globally due to free trade and private ownership of proper,so shouting Africa has grown due to China is idiotic,even before China rise,africa was still growing,
Without Prejudice.
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There is no doubt that China has just lent us 1 trillion shs in the last few yrs. Why hasn't the US done the same..when their economy is bigger than China.
I can see that you really want to believe that China is Africa's Great Saviour. But that does have to stop you from doing some basic homework, which could tell you that:
(1) Kenya is now in the Top 10 of recipients of aid from the USA government and has been for some time. The figures typically range from $550 million per year to $750 million per year. All of it grants. Grants, not loans. So you might want to add up all the grants that Kenya has received from the USA in the last few years and then talk about Sh.1 trillion loans.
-- I will not mention money (grants!) Kenya receives from American NGOs (the large foundations and so on) because there China does not even begin to enter the picture. Nor is it necessary to get into all the other sources of "official" US money into Kenya.
(2) Do you know where plans for Kenya's food security are being made right now? You might want to look at Obama's Feed The Future program.
(3) Did you know that the biggest change to how Kenya manages its national budget was spearheaded by the US government:
`Phyllis Ndunge Makau is the Director of the Parliamentary Budget Office: “The Budget Office was created five years ago. We received support from USAID to create the legal framework and establish the Fiscal Management Act of 2009. We continue to receive support from USAID for analysis and publication of budget options. The budget never used
to be amended, just rubber-stamped". '
(4) Did you know that the USA has even tried to help Kenya improve its joke of a parliament by running a Parliamentary Strengthening Program for Kenya?
I could go on and on ...
China has trusted us with their money
Wrong thinking. You have apparently chosen to overlook the little fact that Kenya was forced to take out rather costly insurance on those loans. That insurance, which means they get paid no matter what, is what the Chinese trust.
On Aid..China loans are 60% grant. That is free money. China is also one of biggest donors now to multilateral agencies including UN.
I won't get into the logic of how a loan is also a grant ... Let's avoid generalities. Since this is a Kenyan forum, let's start with the specific case of Kenya. You are delighted that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" or whatever. Now go take a look at how much China has given Kenya in grants! Yes, please, having told us about the trillion shillings of loans, we now wait to hear about the grants. How many shillings there? Weka namba hapa hapa.
Trade...nobody has stop kenya from exporting...China is Africa biggest importer..importing Oil/Copper/Gold/ name it. Kenya just has to figure out how to balance their trade.
My point is that it is absurd for people to get excited about China being a huge trading partner for Kenya when almost all that trade is in China's favour.
Bottomline..Do not expect chinese to wipe your bottom when you can't even find it.
Exactly. That's why I don't understand all the excitement about China.
China is also one of biggest donors now to multilateral agencies including UN
I don't know why this is supposed to be significant, but I will note that the following countries all contribute more to the UN than does China: France, German, Japan, USA. Japan contributes twice as much and the USA contributes 4 times as much as China does. The USA alone funds almost one-quarter of the UN budgets.
IMF: The countries that contribute more than China are Japan, UK, USA, France, Germany. The USA contributes 4.5 times as much as China.
World Bank: Japan and the USA contribute more than China. The USA contributes about 3 times what China does.
Let us also briefly consider other things that really matter:
Do you know how many people, especially in poor countries and especially in Africa, die or are affected annually by TB, malaria and HIV/AIDS? Malaria alone kills at least 0.5 million per year. Most of those (about 90%) are in Africa and most are children under 5.
So who contributes to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria?
It is the usual suspects, led, as usual, by the USA. Compare some contributions to the fund for the years 2012-2015:
USA - $1.4 billion per year
Bill Gates - $200 million per year
China - $5 million per year
Another one that is interesting is "global emergency humanitarian assistance" given. Looking at the figures for 2012-2013, and they are typical:
USA- $4.5 billion
China - $4 million
Yes, billions vs. millions. But that's not even the half of it. China actually gets more such money than it gives!!! For example, the year in question it got $13 million in such assistance.
I could go on and on with all sorts of figures all over the place. Instead, I will just go off and chuckle quietly about Africans who are sure the Chinese will save them after the Nasty West "has done nothing for centuries" --- and the view based on just seeing a lot of little men running around tarmacking roads ...
In my view there is very little to talk about when it come to western partners...you just need to check the data for the last 15yrs when Africa has engaged with Chinese...and for the first time...the narrative is of "Africa Rising"...all indicators are up....africa economies are growing..thanks to Chinese paying a premium for our raw materials and lending us massive amount of monies...to lay infrastructure.
I have checked the data, and I urge you to do the same and to get off two myths: (a) that the Chinese are paying a premium for our raw materials; (b) "Africa Rising" and that the "rising" is due to China.
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Moonki,
Without using a lot of words i know a lot about the so called US AID including global fund and i can tell the impact if not negative is really marginal compared to what chinese have done...in investing in tangible infrastructure projects. It no wonder when kenyans were asked who'd they trust more btw China and other countries...last i checked China has eclipsed the US.
What China has done in the last 10 yrs in Africa is phenomenal.
You have to blind and deaf to even argue about it.
All growth happening in Africa is thanks mostly to CHINA.
China has found a way to work with Africa gov..you friends at USAID and in western europe continue to FLUSH money down the toilets of NGOs...China global role in IMF/UN/WB and such bodies is constrained by US and the likes insistence of some 1940s formulae or shareholding..
China has done things you can touch if you're blind and deaf. US have done things you have to read on some papers but nothing on the ground. Zero Impact.
There is no doubt that China has just lent us 1 trillion shs in the last few yrs. Why hasn't the US done the same..when their economy is bigger than China.
I can see that you really want to believe that China is Africa's Great Saviour. But that does have to stop you from doing some basic homework, which could tell you that:
(1) Kenya is now in the Top 10 of recipients of aid from the USA government and has been for some time. The figures typically range from $550 million per year to $750 million per year. All of it grants. Grants, not loans. So you might want to add up all the grants that Kenya has received from the USA in the last few years and then talk about Sh.1 trillion loans.
-- I will not mention money (grants!) Kenya receives from American NGOs (the large foundations and so on) because there China does not even begin to enter the picture. Nor is it necessary to get into all the other sources of "official" US money into Kenya.
(2) Do you know where plans for Kenya's food security are being made right now? You might want to look at Obama's Feed The Future program.
(3) Did you know that the biggest change to how Kenya manages its national budget was spearheaded by the US government:
`Phyllis Ndunge Makau is the Director of the Parliamentary Budget Office: “The Budget Office was created five years ago. We received support from USAID to create the legal framework and establish the Fiscal Management Act of 2009. We continue to receive support from USAID for analysis and publication of budget options. The budget never used
to be amended, just rubber-stamped". '
(4) Did you know that the USA has even tried to help Kenya improve its joke of a parliament by running a Parliamentary Strengthening Program for Kenya?
I could go on and on ...
China has trusted us with their money
Wrong thinking. You have apparently chosen to overlook the little fact that Kenya was forced to take out rather costly insurance on those loans. That insurance, which means they get paid no matter what, is what the Chinese trust.
On Aid..China loans are 60% grant. That is free money. China is also one of biggest donors now to multilateral agencies including UN.
I won't get into the logic of how a loan is also a grant ... Let's avoid generalities. Since this is a Kenyan forum, let's start with the specific case of Kenya. You are delighted that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" or whatever. Now go take a look at how much China has given Kenya in grants! Yes, please, having told us about the trillion shillings of loans, we now wait to hear about the grants. How many shillings there? Weka namba hapa hapa.
Trade...nobody has stop kenya from exporting...China is Africa biggest importer..importing Oil/Copper/Gold/ name it. Kenya just has to figure out how to balance their trade.
My point is that it is absurd for people to get excited about China being a huge trading partner for Kenya when almost all that trade is in China's favour.
Bottomline..Do not expect chinese to wipe your bottom when you can't even find it.
Exactly. That's why I don't understand all the excitement about China.
China is also one of biggest donors now to multilateral agencies including UN
I don't know why this is supposed to be significant, but I will note that the following countries all contribute more to the UN than does China: France, German, Japan, USA. Japan contributes twice as much and the USA contributes 4 times as much as China does. The USA alone funds almost one-quarter of the UN budgets.
IMF: The countries that contribute more than China are Japan, UK, USA, France, Germany. The USA contributes 4.5 times as much as China.
World Bank: Japan and the USA contribute more than China. The USA contributes about 3 times what China does.
Let us also briefly consider other things that really matter:
Do you know how many people, especially in poor countries and especially in Africa, die or are affected annually by TB, malaria and HIV/AIDS? Malaria alone kills at least 0.5 million per year. Most of those (about 90%) are in Africa and most are children under 5.
So who contributes to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria?
It is the usual suspects, led, as usual, by the USA. Compare some contributions to the fund for the years 2012-2015:
USA - $1.4 billion per year
Bill Gates - $200 million per year
China - $5 million per year
Another one that is interesting is "global emergency humanitarian assistance" given. Looking at the figures for 2012-2013, and they are typical:
USA- $4.5 billion
China - $4 million
Yes, billions vs. millions. But that's not even the half of it. China actually gets more such money than it gives!!! For example, the year in question it got $13 million in such assistance.
I could go on and on with all sorts of figures all over the place. Instead, I will just go off and chuckle quietly about Africans who are sure the Chinese will save them after the Nasty West "has done nothing for centuries" --- and the view based on just seeing a lot of little men running around tarmacking roads ...
In my view there is very little to talk about when it come to western partners...you just need to check the data for the last 15yrs when Africa has engaged with Chinese...and for the first time...the narrative is of "Africa Rising"...all indicators are up....africa economies are growing..thanks to Chinese paying a premium for our raw materials and lending us massive amount of monies...to lay infrastructure.
I have checked the data, and I urge you to do the same and to get off two myths: (a) that the Chinese are paying a premium for our raw materials; (b) "Africa Rising" and that the "rising" is due to China.
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Pundit:
That's just more vague hand-waving because that is what you want to believe. China has done these great things! And whatever the USA and anyone else has done is just stuff down the toilet! Di di di da da blah! Surely, you can do a bit better.
Let's do concrete. And instead of lumping Africa together, as if Angola's billions somehow help, Chad or whatever, let's do one country at a time.
On a Kenyan forum, I propose that we start with Kenya. Here's a repeat from above:
You are delighted that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" or whatever. Now go take a look at how much China has given Kenya in grants! Yes, please, having told us about the trillion shillings of loans, we now wait to hear about the grants. How many shillings there? Weka namba hapa hapa.
Tell us exactly what great things China is doing for Kenya, and in concrete terms, and lets us compare. Then we can do Uganda, Chad, Botswana, etc. One country at a time.
But please, concrete objective numbers, not ati these people were surveyed and so on.
China global role in IMF/UN/WB and such bodies is constrained by US and the likes insistence of some 1940s formulae or shareholding..
Total nonsense. Mara China is a great contributor, then its "constrained". Let's take them one at a time. Explain to me why almost 25% of the UN's budget is covered by the USA and exactly what "constrains" China from paying more.
I take it you aren't aware of China's tricks to avoid paying its share (relative to the its GDP). China has had a nice counter to any efforts to get it to pay more: it claimed that it had too many poor people itself! I won't do all of your homework for you, but this should give you a good start:
"A population of 150 million in China lives under the UN-set poverty line. Chinese representatives to the UN appealed that the country's capacity to pay should be evaluated in an objective and reasonable way and should not be separated from the nation's conditions and the overall international economic environment."
http://www.ciis.org.cn/english/2013-01/16/content_5674643.htm
I refer you to that start because that's their own propaganda right there. Same con they run all over the place while some Africans are wetting themselves over the Great Chinese that's supposedly going to save them.
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see Mama Lucy Hospital which we are running down
http://china.aiddata.org/projects/1267
and ongoing KU Teaching, Research and Referral Hospital hospital .....
http://china.aiddata.org/projects/1290
MTRH
http://china.aiddata.org/projects/30544
game changers in health sector which can't compare to seminars and 'capacity building' monies thrown all over by USAID, DFID... anyway nobody can take USAID interventions in HIV/AIDS management
Let us also briefly consider other things that really matter:
Do you know how many people, especially in poor countries and especially in Africa, die or are affected annually by TB, malaria and HIV/AIDS? Malaria alone kills at least 0.5 million per year. Most of those (about 90%) are in Africa and most are children under 5.
So who contributes to the Global Fund to Fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria?
It is the usual suspects, led, as usual, by the USA. Compare some contributions to the fund for the years 2012-2015:
USA - $1.4 billion per year
Bill Gates - $200 million per year
China - $5 million per year
Another one that is interesting is "global emergency humanitarian assistance" given. Looking at the figures for 2012-2013, and they are typical:
USA- $4.5 billion
China - $4 million
a list of some of grants and aid from china to kenya ... though some look shady like this one with Kenya International Hospital and Sinopharm
http://china.aiddata.org/projects?country_name=Kenya&is_stage_one=Is+not+Stage+One&page=4
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The numbers speaks for themselves...
And before we do that...forget about US citizen or companies like Bill & Melinda...we are talking GOV of US and CHINA.
1) LOANS
Last year alone..China lent Kenya 450B kshs in one deal alone (SGR)...US has lent to Kenya..ZERO. IMF/WB are not US but global institutions.
China 450B. US 0 Billion (there was talk of Obama energy thing...but so far apart from Kinagop wind thing i am not sure they're processed any here)
2) Grants
US gov claims to grant our NGOS (and maybe small % to our gov) about 500-700M (roughly 50bshs) annually. Most of it money flushed down the NGOS toilets. What has stopped HIV-AIDS is less the global fund but more the affordability of ARV drugs thanks to generics manufactured in India and China.
Quick google search shows me China granted kenya 100M USD for CCTV here, 20M USD for elephants poaching there, hospital there, a road there etc etc.
3) Trade. China beats US down when it come to trade...apart from few Boeing we buy once in a while and the 17B worth of EPZ AGOA thing..that is all the trade we do with US.
What is the impact of China in 2014--we are rolling a brand new modern railway line which will slice transport time and cost-
What is the impact of US in 2014---money flushed down NGOS doing all sort of dubious things with zero or negative impact.
And the reason is obvious- US has spent 50B in kenya in thousands little projects all over while China has committed 450B and implemented the project.
Pundit:
That's just more vague hand-waving because that is what you want to believe. China has done these great things! And whatever the USA and anyone else has done is just stuff down the toilet! Di di di da da blah! Surely, you can do a bit better.
Let's do concrete. And instead of lumping Africa together, as if Angola's billions somehow help, Chad or whatever, let's do one country at a time.
On a Kenyan forum, I propose that we start with Kenya. Here's a repeat from above:
You are delighted that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" or whatever. Now go take a look at how much China has given Kenya in grants! Yes, please, having told us about the trillion shillings of loans, we now wait to hear about the grants. How many shillings there? Weka namba hapa hapa.
Tell us exactly what great things China is doing for Kenya, and in concrete terms, and lets us compare. Then we can do Uganda, Chad, Botswana, etc. One country at a time.
But please, concrete objective numbers, not ati these people were surveyed and so on.
China global role in IMF/UN/WB and such bodies is constrained by US and the likes insistence of some 1940s formulae or shareholding..
Total nonsense. Mara China is a great contributor, then its "constrained". Let's take them one at a time. Explain to me why almost 25% of the UN's budget is covered by the USA and exactly what "constrains" China from paying more.
I take it you aren't aware of China's tricks to avoid paying its share (relative to the its GDP). China has had a nice counter to any efforts to get it to pay more: it claimed that it had too many poor people itself! I won't do all of your homework for you, but this should give you a good start:
"A population of 150 million in China lives under the UN-set poverty line. Chinese representatives to the UN appealed that the country's capacity to pay should be evaluated in an objective and reasonable way and should not be separated from the nation's conditions and the overall international economic environment."
http://www.ciis.org.cn/english/2013-01/16/content_5674643.htm
I refer you to that start because that's their own propaganda right there. Same con they run all over the place while some Africans are wetting themselves over the Great Chinese that's supposedly going to save them.
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Now you are trying a bit harder. But it's still pretty lame.
And before we do that...forget about US citizen or companies like Bill & Melinda...we are talking GOV of US and CHINA.
I did put up the figures for the "GOV of US". My point about putting up the Gates figure was to highlight what a single individual is doing for the health of Africans in comparison with what your great China is doing.
The numbers speaks for themselves...
1) LOANS
Last year alone..China lent Kenya 450B kshs in one deal alone (SGR)...US has lent to Kenya..ZERO.
I don't see your logic in that one or why it upsets you. Did Kenya try to borrow money in the USA and turned down? It seems absurd that Kenya decides to borrow money from elsewhere and then you say complain that the USA is not lending Kenya money. Is the USA supposed to beat up Kenya and make it take loans from there?
And why should the USA be concerned with loans to Kenya when it prefers to give huge grants?
2) Grants
US gov claims to grant our NGOS (and maybe small % to our gov) about 500-700M (roughly 50bshs) annually. Most of it money flushed down the NGOS toilets. What has stopped HIV-AIDS is less the global fund but more the affordability of ARV drugs thanks to generics manufactured in India and China.
And where do you think the money that pays for Kenya to get those cheap ARVs come from? Ever heard of USAID?
I have looked at what an organization like USAID says its money achieves in Kenya. I suggest you too do the same?
Quick google search shows me China granted kenya 100M USD for CCTV here, 20M USD for elephants poaching there, hospital there, a road there etc etc.
I did the same quick search, and I can easily see why you continue to get excited over nothing. This is what I found
"VENTURES AFRICA- To minimise terrorism attacks in the country, China has offered Kenya a $100 million (Sh8.5 billion) loan to install Closed-Circuit Television Cameras (CCTV) in major towns and cities."
http://www.ventures-africa.com/2012/05/china-grants-kenya-100million-for-cctv-surveillance/
20M USD for elephants poaching there, hospital there, a road there etc etc.
He, he, he ... that's it? What happened to
On Aid..China loans are 60% grant. That is free money.
Pending further information from you, we'll take you figures for grants to be $20 million. You can easily find what other countries have given in grants. I have given you the figures for just the USA.
3) Trade. China beats US down when it come to trade...apart from few Boeing we buy once in a while and the 17B worth of EPZ AGOA thing..that is all the trade we do with US.
As I said, there is little point in bragging about trade volume when it is heavily one-sided for most African countries and especially those that are not delivering natural resources. In the case of Kenya, you should be praising Afghanistan, which, although a wreck of country imports more from Kenya than China does.
What is the impact of China in 2014--we are rolling a brand new modern railway line which will slice transport time and cost-
Tell us the impact of that one when it is done. We have seen Chinese build great railways before (e.g. to the south of Kenya) and then?
What is the impact of US in 2014---money flushed down NGOS doing all sort of dubious things with zero or negative impact.
And the reason is obvious- US has spent 50B in kenya in thousands little projects all over while China has committed 450B and implemented the project.
First of all, the USA puts well over Sh. 50B per year into Kenya. Per year.
I see you are in the group that thinks that things are more important than people and "big project" matter more than what you call "little projects". Africans need to get away from that sort of mentality.
Africans die like flies everyday from numerous diseases and starvation, many of them people who would otherwise contribute to (or grow up to contribute to) their countries. It seems to me that we should focus on such things and be grateful when we get help from others to do so. A railway that is yet to be built and a small road that people call a superhighway won't do those. See more below on food.
Looking at your list of the "great things" that China has supposedly done in Kenya, I have to say that I am singularly unimpressed.
And that includes the loans to build those hospitals.
And then there's our wildlife ...
If you want to talk about serious aid (food, technical and otherwise), you should also look at other Asian countries, particularly Japan. Whereas people are excited about a $4 billion loan from China, there is nothing from the Chinese that would compare with this, for example:
"Japan gave Kenya a $7.7-billion grant on Monday to buy food in response to an appeal by the east African country's president."
http://mg.co.za/article/2009-08-24-japan-gives-kenya-77bn-for-food-aid
"Donor response to food shortage in the country has been slow and lukewarm. Only last week, Japan gave Kenya $7.7 billion grant to address food shortages"
http://www.standardmedia.co.ke/article/1144022491/ministries-in-budget-cuts-to-fund-emergency-kitty
Yep, $7.7 billion, grant. Just like that. In one year. How much total has China given Kenya (grants, loans, whatever) in the last 10 years.
And you can also look at other aid from Japan (loans and grants), the projects they do (geothermal, ports).
I suppose you will say that un-built railways and a little highway are better than food, but that kind of Japanese grant aid is what I would get excited about. Kenyans got to eat and live a bit longer.
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There is no doubt that China has just lent us 1 trillion shs in the last few yrs.
Actually there is some doubt. I did a few sums today, and I didn't get the 1 trillion. Can you point me to the source of the data?
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In 10yrs..chinese have done what britons and other europeans have been unable to do in centuries.
Interesting. But let us try and do an objective comparison. Let us start with Kenya. What are the great things the Chinese have done there?
What I find intriguing is how easily Africans have bought into the myth that China is a friend with no imperialistic or hegemonic ambitions. After all --Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao and Xi Jinping have said so. The mantra: We can help you replicate our model of growth sans (human) development.
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What is important is the IMPACT of any projects. China's Kasarani is still visible and standing today compared to little USAID project that cannot be sustained when funding is cut off. The same can be said of China's funded ByPasses in Nairobi. You could say about the French projects like Ndakaini-Nairobi. JICA funded Sondu Miiru and several such projects. Italian funded Turkwel. ADB funded Thika road.
China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars..when it reaches Malaba..will stand for 100 yrs impacting many generations.
What exactly can US shows you in kenya beyond the dubious claims of 500-700M that they fund? Ohoo Malarai has reduced thanks to mosquito nets :lol: that they've dispensed.
Western AID has SIMPLY failed to work. You can read the lady from Zambia who famously called it DEAD AID..and advocated for what China is doing..Investing in Africa...Not seeing Africa has basket case...to be given money for buying condoms, mosquito nets, drugs, food and of course thousands of capacity building projects.
Invest in Africa's Infrastructure and Pay better for African goods and services like the Chinese are doing...and you have win-win situation.
US and EU have treated Africa like a street beggar..throwing coins..and shouting about how they help feed the beggar. China is giving the beggar a chance to live a dignified life by showing him how they did it.
I see you are in the group that thinks that things are more important than people and "big project" matter more than what you call "little projects". Africans need to get away from that sort of mentality.
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When China turns out an enemy..i bet we will have enough time to ran. The citizens and gov in most of Africa are pro-china now because we have seen what they've done in few years. Despite the propaganda from the west....we know Obama and Europeans are similarly running to China..for loans and trade.
In fact i do not know what we are talking about when US and EU simply borrow from China...and throws a few crumbs our way..and we are suppose to celebrate dealing with big daddy..not directly with Chinese.
What I find intriguing is how easily Africans have bought into the myth that China is a friend with no imperialistic or hegemonic ambitions. After all --Jiang Zemin, Hu Jintao and Xi Jinping have said so. The mantra: We can help you replicate our model of growth sans (human) development.
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What is important is the IMPACT of any projects. China's Kasarani is still visible and standing today compared to little USAID project that cannot be sustained when funding is cut off.
As I have tried to point out, Africans need to focus first on people rather than things ... stop dying like flies from starvation and numerous diseases. Human capital is a huge step to development, and you should look at the Asian countries that first worked on feeding themselves. What is the point of having a stadium or a long railway line and then going off to beg others for food or keep dying from simple things like the lack of clean drinking water? Have you looked at the health statistics of Kenya recently?
Of course, USAID is not about great pieces of steel and concrete. But I'd rather have Kenyans standing up and alive rather than dead with infrastructure standing up.
China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars..when it reaches Malaba..will stand for 100 yrs impacting many generations.
First, I am awaiting your answer on the "1 trillion shillings" you are so happy that China has lent Kenya "in the last few years". I can't find the figures you rely on for that.
Second, where does this "12 billion dollars" from now?
Third, when is it supposed to reached Malaba? I am not aware of any concrete plans past Nairobi, but perhaps you will share those with us.
Fourth, your "100 years" projection is very amusing, considering that nobody seems to be able to maintain anything. You can look at Kenya itself, move to Tanzania where China has been building "great railways" since who-knows-when ... when it comes to maintenance, history is not on your "100 years" prediction.
Oh, I should also point out that all this excitement is over a railway line that still does not exist.
What exactly can US shows you in kenya beyond the dubious claims of 500-700M that they fund? Ohoo Malarai has reduced thanks to mosquito nets :lol: that they've dispensed.
Good question. I will give you a day to do your homework. If you still need answers after that, ask again. Your hint is to start looking at things like food, health, and so on.
You can read the lady from Zambia who famously called it DEAD AID..and advocated for what China is doing..Investing in Africa...
A "lady from Zambia" said that. Well, then, we must take it to the bank right away!
Not seeing Africa has basket case...to be given money for buying condoms, mosquito nets, drugs, food and of course thousands of capacity building projects.
Sadly, the hard fact is that most of Africa is indeed a basket case; it's not a particularly happy fact, or one that is easily admitted, but there it is. The endless begging supports that. I gave you an example of Kenya desperately begging for food and Japan handing over $7.7 billion dollars (grant) just like that.
Condoms, mosquito nets, ... even simple clean drinking water ... the basket-case continues because people get very excited over railway lines and small "superhighways" and do not focus on basics like food and health. Attitudes need to change over that.
US and EU have treated Africa like a street beggar..throwing coins..and shouting about how they help feed the beggar.
That could be because Africa continually behaves like a street beggar. How much lower can it get to beg for food? And not once or twice; it's never-ending! As a general rule, people who keep begging for this and that, especially basic things like food, do get treated as beggars! If African countries do not want to get treated like beggars, then there is an obvious path: (a) take care of your own shit; (b) actually stop begging.
Look, if you want to believe that China is going to save Kenya and Africa---and you seem very determined to do so---then go for it. But, as I noted above, when actually looks at the "great things"---e.g. your list of Chinese Great Things in Kenya---it doesn't quite add up. And that's the case for quite a few African countries.
Me, myself, ... I can't think of a more basic human need than food. So I would want Kenya (and others) to first get such things right and avoid relying on endless begging.
Next, I'd focus on other not-very-glamorous things: (a) do you know the real cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having just clean drinking water for most of the population?; (b) do you know the actual cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having proper places for people to shit?; (c) ... And by cost I actually mean quantifiable money.
I prefer to see an Africa that is focused, first, on the basics: food, health, housing, and on.
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When China turns out an enemy..i bet we will have enough time to ran. The citizens and gov in most of Africa are pro-china now because we have seen what they've done in few years.
This is the mentality we need to get away from: "I see it with my own eyes!". I see the road and the stadium, but I do not see the improvement in the quality of life or an extension to the length of life.
Africa needs to start focusing on people. Leaders to:
(a) provide them with the basics, at least to the extent of not having to continually beg for things like food;
(b) stop robbing them at every turn;
(c) put an end to all the mayhem---killing, raping, civil wars, etc.
...
(z) above all, Africans to free themselves of the notion that someone else (China today) will save them.
P.S. There is plenty of "amusing" stuff like this:
http://www.africanglobe.net/business/chinese-hurting-african-economies/
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Invest in Africa's Infrastructure and Pay better for African goods and services like the Chinese are doing...and you have win-win situation.
And what exactly is the "better pay"? When the USA and Saudi Arabia drive down oil prices, do you believe that the Chinese will pay anything better than the going market-rate?
Have you seen how a place like Uganda is ready to bend over and get it in the ****? A nice little con of them borrowing Chinese money against future oil sales. It reminds me of some Kenyans who gave the colonial British thousands of acres of productive land in return for ... [See Form II History]. But folks all over are lapping up this sort of thing!
What is important is the IMPACT of any projects. China's Kasarani is still visible and standing today compared to little USAID project that cannot be sustained when funding is cut off.
As I have tried to point out, Africans need to focus first on people rather than things ... stop dying like flies from starvation and numerous diseases. Human capital is a huge step to development, and you should look at the Asian countries that first worked on feeding themselves. What is the point of having a stadium or a long railway line and then going off to beg others for food or keep dying from simple things like the lack of clean drinking water? Have you looked at the health statistics of Kenya recently?
Of course, USAID is not about great pieces of steel and concrete. But I'd rather have Kenyans standing up and alive rather than dead with infrastructure standing up.
China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars..when it reaches Malaba..will stand for 100 yrs impacting many generations.
First, I am awaiting your answer on the "1 trillion shillings" you are so happy that China has lent Kenya "in the last few years". I can't find the figures you rely on for that.
Second, where does this "12 billion dollars" from now?
(Er, em, ... perhaps you should stay away from numbers or anything conrete; stick to generic handwaving----the west has failed, China has saved sort of thing.)
Third, when is it supposed to reached Malaba? I am not aware of any concrete plans past Nairobi, but perhaps you will share those with us.
Fourth, your "100 years" projection is very amusing, considering that nobody seems to be able to maintain anything. You can look at Kenya itself, move to Tanzania where China has been building "great railways" since who-knows-when ... but when it comes to maintenance, history is not on your "100 years" prediction.
Human development: Before I hear about what the SGR will do for 100 years, I'd rather hear about how Kenya will feed itself for 100 years. And other basics for a decent human life ... Anybody there working on those?
Oh, I should also point out that all this excitement is over a railway line that still does not exist.
What exactly can US shows you in kenya beyond the dubious claims of 500-700M that they fund? Ohoo Malarai has reduced thanks to mosquito nets :lol: that they've dispensed.
Good question. I will give you a day to do your homework. If you still need answers after that, ask again. Your hint is to start looking at things like food, health, and so on.
You can read the lady from Zambia who famously called it DEAD AID..and advocated for what China is doing..Investing in Africa...
A "lady from Zambia" said that. Well, then, we must take it to the bank right away!
Not seeing Africa has basket case...to be given money for buying condoms, mosquito nets, drugs, food and of course thousands of capacity building projects.
Sadly, the hard fact is that most of Africa is indeed a basket case; it's not a particularly happy fact, or one that is easily admitted, but there it is. The endless begging supports that. I gave you an example of Kenya desperately begging for food and Japan handing over $7.7 billion dollars (grant) just like that.
Condoms, mosquito nets, ... even simple clean drinking water ... the basket-case continues because people get very excited over railway lines and small "superhighways" and do not focus on basics like food and health. Attitudes need to change over that.
US and EU have treated Africa like a street beggar..throwing coins..and shouting about how they help feed the beggar.
That could be because Africa continually behaves like a street beggar. Always begging! How much lower can it get to beg for food? And not once or twice; it's never-ending! Even from Kenya, where you assure us that the Chinese are performing Great & Glorious deeds! (Must be hard to eat a future railway :D )
As a general rule, people who keep begging for this and that, especially basic things like food, do get treated as beggars! If African countries do not want to get treated like beggars, then there is an obvious path: (a) take care of your own shit; (b) actually stop begging.
Look, if you want to believe that China is going to save Kenya and Africa---and you seem very determined to do so---then go for it. But, as I noted above, when actually looks at the "great things"---e.g. your list of Chinese Great Things in Kenya---it doesn't quite add up. And that's the case for quite a few African countries.
Me, myself, ... I can't think of a more basic human need than food. So I would want Kenya (and others) to first get such things right and avoid relying on endless begging.
Next, I'd focus on other not-very-glamorous things: (a) do you know the real cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having just clean drinking water for most of the population?; (b) do you know the actual cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having proper places for people to shit?; (c) ... And by cost I actually mean quantifiable money.
I prefer to see an Africa that is focused, first, on the basics: food, health, housing, and on. Learn something from the people who are at the receiving end of perpetual "please help"!
Africa has to start taking human development much more seriously. Until that happens, the place will remain a perpetual basket case of beggars---shiny new railway and stadium, from borrowed money, but can't even feed themselves.
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Mooki,
You're given to splitting hairs.
I like to summarize my main points.
For figures SGR (450) and Bypasses in Nairobi(Southern,Eastern,Northern,Western..each 10B) alone is worth (450+50) is 500B. Your challenge given you have plentiful time and resources is to find out what else China has been doing in transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports for last 10yrs..annnually China lends kenya 50-100B (now i think largest bilateral lender having overtaken Japan).
SGR is designed to go all way to Kigali. Phase 1 is what is already funded and under construction. Phase 2 is to Malaba/Kampala. Uganda and Kenya are in talks on that. Mombasa-Malaba will cost 1.2trillion..or 12bUSD (roughly).
Your yankee friends cannot fund that. Well unless they were funding Europeans in a Marshall Plan. Chinese are going to give us 12B USD in few yrs...i bet more than US has given kenya in 50yrs
Now lets go to why Western Aid has NOT worked in Africa or Kenya for last 50yrs despite all the money flushed down the NGOS and why 10 yrs after China become a donor...everyone seem excited.
It simple. Approach. USAID focus on the short term (give the fish) China focus on long term (teach them how to fish). If USAID see a problem in food security..they will invite 100 NGOS with funding lasting 1-3yrs doing all sort of funny things. The same with WatSan...some NGO to dig 10 boreholes here...another to transport water in Camels...another to distribute a gadget that clean dirty water..another to dig 1,000 toilets all over kenya. If we have transport problem in main corridor..they will give some NGO trademark...contract to hold conference along the north corrindor..imploring the gov to reduce road blocks...some money to got Drivers and Manamba touts to buy them condoms in Mlolongo stop over..couple of dollars to Shipper councils..to organize capacity building.
You can replace USAID with DFID(or any othe Western Aid Agency). The impact is the same. It short lived,marginal and mostly negative--read dependency sydrome. I should know having monitored and evaluated hundreds of such projects all over Africa, Asia and Latina America.
What will china do. It will help gov do what China has done. We have food security problem..how about you invest massive amounts of money in irrigation scheme..build a fertilizer factory..the aim to ensure we have in few yrs plentiful and cheap food. How about you build big shoe factory to turn around the fortunes of nomads. When it comes to Water...China will invest in massive water supply systems.. a huge dam like the one they are building in Ethiopia and Sudan...you have problem with transport...expand the roads..modernize the railway..like SGR they have done in Kenya,Ethiopia and Nigera....all these in long term will make Africa grow sustainably. The impact of Chinese projects are all there to be seen. There is even no need to measure or evaluate. It manifesting in glowing tribute that ordinary kenyans and leaders have showered the chinese with.
Tazara and other projects by previous communist China is really desperation from your end..We are talking new China. The China that has been doing amazing things in all countries in Africa...those growing very fast..like Ethiopia...happens to be deeply in bed with Chinese.
So our gov is corrupt...USAID will deal with NGOS..China will find a way to work with Gov[ by insisting all contracts are handled directly from Beijing--from paying contractors to release of funds]..coz at end of the day nobody has the scale the gov has.
In short what China has done in 10yrs....after emerging from poverty...is simply breathtaking.
It no wonder africa people and their gov are bending over for Chinese tarimbo.
Invest in Africa's Infrastructure and Pay better for African goods and services like the Chinese are doing...and you have win-win situation.
And what exactly is the "better pay"? When the USA and Saudi Arabia drive down oil prices, do you believe that the Chinese will pay anything better than the going market-rate?
Have you seen how a place like Uganda is ready to bend over and get it in the ****? A nice little con of them borrowing Chinese money against future oil sales. It reminds me of some Kenyans who gave the colonial British thousands of acres of productive land in return for ... [See Form II History]. But folks all over are lapping up this sort of thing!
What is important is the IMPACT of any projects. China's Kasarani is still visible and standing today compared to little USAID project that cannot be sustained when funding is cut off.
As I have tried to point out, Africans need to focus first on people rather than things ... stop dying like flies from starvation and numerous diseases. Human capital is a huge step to development, and you should look at the Asian countries that first worked on feeding themselves. What is the point of having a stadium or a long railway line and then going off to beg others for food or keep dying from simple things like the lack of clean drinking water? Have you looked at the health statistics of Kenya recently?
Of course, USAID is not about great pieces of steel and concrete. But I'd rather have Kenyans standing up and alive rather than dead with infrastructure standing up.
China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars..when it reaches Malaba..will stand for 100 yrs impacting many generations.
First, I am awaiting your answer on the "1 trillion shillings" you are so happy that China has lent Kenya "in the last few years". I can't find the figures you rely on for that.
Second, where does this "12 billion dollars" from now?
(Er, em, ... perhaps you should stay away from numbers or anything conrete; stick to generic handwaving----the west has failed, China has saved sort of thing.)
Third, when is it supposed to reached Malaba? I am not aware of any concrete plans past Nairobi, but perhaps you will share those with us.
Fourth, your "100 years" projection is very amusing, considering that nobody seems to be able to maintain anything. You can look at Kenya itself, move to Tanzania where China has been building "great railways" since who-knows-when ... but when it comes to maintenance, history is not on your "100 years" prediction.
Human development: Before I hear about what the SGR will do for 100 years, I'd rather hear about how Kenya will feed itself for 100 years. And other basics for a decent human life ... Anybody there working on those?
Oh, I should also point out that all this excitement is over a railway line that still does not exist.
What exactly can US shows you in kenya beyond the dubious claims of 500-700M that they fund? Ohoo Malarai has reduced thanks to mosquito nets :lol: that they've dispensed.
Good question. I will give you a day to do your homework. If you still need answers after that, ask again. Your hint is to start looking at things like food, health, and so on.
You can read the lady from Zambia who famously called it DEAD AID..and advocated for what China is doing..Investing in Africa...
A "lady from Zambia" said that. Well, then, we must take it to the bank right away!
Not seeing Africa has basket case...to be given money for buying condoms, mosquito nets, drugs, food and of course thousands of capacity building projects.
Sadly, the hard fact is that most of Africa is indeed a basket case; it's not a particularly happy fact, or one that is easily admitted, but there it is. The endless begging supports that. I gave you an example of Kenya desperately begging for food and Japan handing over $7.7 billion dollars (grant) just like that.
Condoms, mosquito nets, ... even simple clean drinking water ... the basket-case continues because people get very excited over railway lines and small "superhighways" and do not focus on basics like food and health. Attitudes need to change over that.
US and EU have treated Africa like a street beggar..throwing coins..and shouting about how they help feed the beggar.
That could be because Africa continually behaves like a street beggar. Always begging! How much lower can it get to beg for food? And not once or twice; it's never-ending! Even from Kenya, where you assure us that the Chinese are performing Great & Glorious deeds! (Must be hard to eat a future railway :D )
As a general rule, people who keep begging for this and that, especially basic things like food, do get treated as beggars! If African countries do not want to get treated like beggars, then there is an obvious path: (a) take care of your own shit; (b) actually stop begging.
Look, if you want to believe that China is going to save Kenya and Africa---and you seem very determined to do so---then go for it. But, as I noted above, when actually looks at the "great things"---e.g. your list of Chinese Great Things in Kenya---it doesn't quite add up. And that's the case for quite a few African countries.
Me, myself, ... I can't think of a more basic human need than food. So I would want Kenya (and others) to first get such things right and avoid relying on endless begging.
Next, I'd focus on other not-very-glamorous things: (a) do you know the real cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having just clean drinking water for most of the population?; (b) do you know the actual cost, in a place like Kenya, of not having proper places for people to shit?; (c) ... And by cost I actually mean quantifiable money.
I prefer to see an Africa that is focused, first, on the basics: food, health, housing, and on. Learn something from the people who are at the receiving end of perpetual "please help"!
Africa has to start taking human development much more seriously. Until that happens, the place will remain a perpetual basket case of beggars---shiny new railway and stadium, from borrowed money, but can't even feed themselves.
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Here we have a circuitous debate which reveals the following: Beijing is flexing her muscles in Africa and, in turn, Africans are becoming heavily indebted to Beijing. On the SGR project, Kenya funded a mere 10% (correct me if am wrong), and Exim Bank of China financed the balance through two separate loans to be repaid by the GoK from future rail revenues; thus it is conceivable that Beijing will be running the SGR as a concession.
Meanwhile, last week, Kenya turned to the Bretton Woods institutions and received the Fund's imprimatur sealing a $504.3m Stand-Buy Agreement and a smaller $194m Stand-By Credit Facility. Of note upon reading a snippet of the deal is the following: [the] new precautionary financing arrangements would provide a policy anchor for continued macroeconomic and institutional reforms...[and] durable poverty reduction. To achieve the latter, we are likely to see more cleaning up of Kibera, Mathare and other slums in a quest to appease the Fund and The Bank. Wazees in hamlets, townships and villages all across Kenya will see a rise in their monthly allowances from Nairobi.
The proof is in the IMF Conditionality.
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Why do folks take WB or IMF or UN to be part of Western AID/Gov. Those are global mulitateral insitutions where kenya and 200 other countries have shareholding. The US & EU does misuse them for political reasons..but without strong arm [like vetos and refusal to increase WB/IMF capital]..their influence at those institutions would be at par with other countries.
Thankfully China has not only rolled out their own banks but have worked with BRICS to develop banks that can respond to 21st century development issues...
Banks not afraid to lent 10B dollars to poor basket case African country.
Here we have a circuitous debate which reveals the following: Beijing is flexing her muscles in Africa and, in turn, Africans are becoming heavily indebted to Beijing. On the SGR project, Kenya funded a mere 10% (correct me if am wrong), and Exim Bank of China financed the balance through two separate loans to be repaid by the GoK from future rail revenues; thus it is conceivable that Beijing will be running the SGR as a concession.
Meanwhile, last week, Kenya turned to the Bretton Woods institutions and received the Fund's imprimatur sealing a $504.3m Stand-Buy Agreement and a smaller $194m Stand-By Credit Facility. Of note upon reading a snippet of the deal is the following: [the] new precautionary financing arrangements would provide a policy anchor for continued macroeconomic and institutional reforms...[and] durable poverty reduction. To achieve the latter, we are likely to see more cleaning up of Kibera, Mathare and other slums in a quest to appease the Fund and The Bank. Wazees in hamlets, townships and villages all across Kenya will see a rise in their monthly allowances from Nairobi.
The proof is in the IMF Conditionality.
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If the government allowed the private sector to invest in SGR and energy,that would have saved kenyans over 500BN HOWEVER the only reason politicians who control gov want to invest in these mega-projects is to make quick easy money while kenyans sleep hungry in dirty,disease and crime infested slums,
Chinese just want their money to earn interest,we are paying them more than they are earning in USA European and Japanese bonds,the rest is none of their business,
Without Prejudice.
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For figures SGR (450) and Bypasses in Nairobi(Southern,Eastern,Northern,Western..each 10B) alone is worth (450+50) is 500B. Your challenge given you have plentiful time and resources is to find out what else China has been doing in transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports for last 10yrs..annnually China lends kenya 50-100B (now i think largest bilateral lender having overtaken Japan).
You stated that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" in the "last few years". I actually went off and did the sums and not find that. And yes, I looked at your "transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports". One more time: what is the exact source of your figures?
Your yankee friends cannot fund that.
Cannot? What is the concrete basis of such a statement.
Chinese are going to give us 12B USD in few yrs...
I have not seen any agreement that would confirm that. What is the basis of your claim? By the way, they will not give Kenya anything. If the current SGR is anything to go by, they will lend Kenya the money and insist that Kenya take out costly insurance to cover the loan. You really ought to get away from this idea that you are being given anything.
Still, I note the "improvement", in that you have changed from:
China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars
i bet more than US has given kenya in 50yrs
Don't just bet; go off and do the sums, and actually reach a conclusion. And in the case of the US, there has been real giving (i.e. grants).
Now lets go to why Western Aid has NOT worked in Africa or Kenya for last 50yrs despite all the money flushed down the NGOS and why 10 yrs after China become a donor...everyone seem excited.
It is very easy to simply has not worked and the West has "failed" without providing a concrete basis for such a statement. The statements are also based on very curious reasoning. If the West has poured money into Africa and it has been wasted as you claim, is it the West that has failed? You might want to look at the Africans.
It simple. Approach. USAID focus on the short term (give the fish) China focus on long term (teach them how to fish).
Just clichés. What exactly is this "teaching them how to fish" anyway. If you mean things like railways, the British already gave Kenyans one, and you know what Kenyans did with it?
If USAID see a problem in food security..they will invite 100 NGOS with funding lasting 1-3yrs doing all sort of funny things. The same with WatSan...some NGO to dig 10 boreholes here...another to transport water in Camels...another to distribute a gadget that clean dirty water..another to dig 1,000 toilets all over kenya. If we have transport problem in main corridor..they will give some NGO trademark...contract to hold conference along the north corrindor..imploring the gov to reduce road blocks...some money to got Drivers and Manamba touts to buy them condoms in Mlolongo stop over..couple of dollars to Shipper councils..to organize capacity building.
And what exactly is China's contribution to such things in Kenya?
What will china do. It will help gov do what China has done.
I not asking about China might/will do, especially because I have to concrete basis to determine what it might/will do. I am asking about what it has actually done.
We have food security problem..how about you invest massive amounts of money in irrigation scheme..build a fertilizer factory..the aim to ensure we have in few yrs plentiful and cheap food. How about you build big shoe factory to turn around the fortunes of nomads. When it comes to Water...China will invest in massive water supply systems..
China will, China will, China. When will they?
Kenyans still routinely beg for food. Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems?
Where are all those factories in Kenya? Last I heard, your were bragging about the trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.
Kenyan children are dying like flies from illnesses caused by nothing more than the lack of clean drinking water. Where in Kenya are those Chinese "massive water supply systems"?
a huge dam like the one they are building in Ethiopia and Sudan...you have problem with transport...expand the roads..modernize the railway..like SGR they have done in Kenya,Ethiopia and Nigera....
"SGR they have done in Kenya"? I haven't seen it. Anyway, as I pointed out, go look at the railways the Chinese build in places like Tanzania and so on? Kenya? We know what Kenya does with its railways.
The impact of Chinese projects are all there to be seen. There is even no need to measure or evaluate.
When it comes to generic hand-waving, you are at your best. Ati all there to be seen, no need to measure! I have already asked you about the "great things" that China has done in Kenya. You gave a list. A pathetic one. So we won't repeat that exercise?
I have also pointed out to you the dangers of "It is there! I can see it with my own eyes!". It is the mentality that leads people to focus on things like stadiums and shiny railways while diarrhea keeps killing their children and they have to regularly beg for food in order to stay alive.
Tazara and other projects by previous communist China is really desperation from your end..We are talking new China.
Again, very curious logic, and you miss the point. Whether the railway was build by "Communist China" or "new China" is completely irrelevant. The main point is that it was built, and we know what happened after that.
The China that has been doing amazing things in all countries in Africa...
Yes, I saw your list of "amazing things" in Kenya :D
Here's a thought that amused me this morning, as I reflected on these criticisms that the West has failed in Africa: the criticism are done by people who went to educational systems started by the West, used Western-developed infrastructure and facilities, use a Western language, adhere to a religion that came from the West, etc.,etc. etc. And to round it all off, convey their criticisms using technology invented by the West.
Anyway, one more time:
(1) It is not the West's responsibility to take care of Africa. So it is absurd to keep saying that they have failed in Africa.
(2) If whatever money the West has put into Africa has gone to waste---and that is yet to be established objectively---then it is not the West that has failed; it is the recipients.
(3) Africans---at least those like you who seem to think so---need to give up this idea that either the West or the East will save them. They need to start doing for themselves, and a good place to start would be to feed themselves instead of having to rely on perpetual begging.
(4) Africa needs to first focus on human development---food, health, ...basics. One can eat or drink a stadium or a railway.
(http://www.bistandsaktuelt.no/ukens-tegning/arkiv-ukens-tegning/_image/390724.png?_encoded=2f66666666666678302f35382f20202020202020200a29303035286874646977656c616373202020202020202020200a&_ts=136df694742)
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Chinese just want their money to earn interest,we are paying them more than they are earning in USA European and Japanese bonds,the rest is none of their business,
And it's not just the interest. The insurance on the Exim loan is 6.9% of the loan! Talk about getting free money from Kenyans! But Pundit will still tell you that China is giving, giving, giving.
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More hair splitting.
Perhaps we can flip this. Tell us one AID project by any western partners you're really proud of. I can barely count five in my one hand despite 50yrs of assistance to Africa.
Let us not waste time with what we all agree...that Africa is basket case beggar who is incredibly corrupt and irresponsible..this is supported by overwhelming evidence..am not prepared to argue about.
The same way you shouldn't waste any minute arguing about FAILED DEAD western AID project.
The Chinese are breathe of fresh air..because their model actually works...EU and rest have been funding roads and railways...for donkeys years....but there is barely any road. China model (including insurance), the insistence that money never really leaves China banks except to contractor and their insistence of their own contractors..is what WORKS. At end of the day we want good roads, good railways, word class ports, energy generations projects,power lines,irrigation sizes, dams , security cameras, police cars and such kind of development that chinese are handing us..on TIME and COST.
Does the Yankees and europeans really do not know what works in Africa. Mm...they did a marshall plan for Europe...China is doing a marshall plan for Africa...maybe it racism.
Now you have this wierd notion of what development really is. For you development is what handing a beggar food..not taking the beggar out of the street. I am not sure what development philosophy this belongs to..it look to me like emergency band aid...that US and EU have been conducting in Africa for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Development. Sustainable Development. Human development. Just look at what Chinese are doing.That railway line will reduce travel cost and time..and multiplier effect on everything including the price of USAID condom and yellow maize...will be felt for generations to come..if we do not screw it up.
For figures SGR (450) and Bypasses in Nairobi(Southern,Eastern,Northern,Western..each 10B) alone is worth (450+50) is 500B. Your challenge given you have plentiful time and resources is to find out what else China has been doing in transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports for last 10yrs..annnually China lends kenya 50-100B (now i think largest bilateral lender having overtaken Japan).
You stated that China has lent Kenya "1 trillion shillings" in the "last few years". I actually went off and did the sums and not find that. And yes, I looked at your "transport, security, telecommunication, energy and ports". One more time: what is the exact source of your figures?
Your yankee friends cannot fund that.
Cannot? What is the concrete basis of such a statement.
Chinese are going to give us 12B USD in few yrs...
I have not seen any agreement that would confirm that. What is the basis of your claim? By the way, they will not give Kenya anything. If the current SGR is anything to go by, they will lend Kenya the money and insist that Kenya take out costly insurance to cover the loan. You really ought to get away from this idea that you are being given anything.
Still, I note the "improvement", in that you have changed from:
China funded SGR..to tune of 12 billion dollars
i bet more than US has given kenya in 50yrs
Don't just bet; go off and do the sums, and actually reach a conclusion. And in the case of the US, there has been real giving (i.e. grants).
Now lets go to why Western Aid has NOT worked in Africa or Kenya for last 50yrs despite all the money flushed down the NGOS and why 10 yrs after China become a donor...everyone seem excited.
It is very easy to simply has not worked and the West has "failed" without providing a concrete basis for such a statement. The statements are also based on very curious reasoning. If the West has poured money into Africa and it has been wasted as you claim, is it the West that has failed? You might want to look at the Africans.
It simple. Approach. USAID focus on the short term (give the fish) China focus on long term (teach them how to fish).
Just clichés. What exactly is this "teaching them how to fish" anyway. If you mean things like railways, the British already gave Kenyans one, and you know what Kenyans did with it?
If USAID see a problem in food security..they will invite 100 NGOS with funding lasting 1-3yrs doing all sort of funny things. The same with WatSan...some NGO to dig 10 boreholes here...another to transport water in Camels...another to distribute a gadget that clean dirty water..another to dig 1,000 toilets all over kenya. If we have transport problem in main corridor..they will give some NGO trademark...contract to hold conference along the north corrindor..imploring the gov to reduce road blocks...some money to got Drivers and Manamba touts to buy them condoms in Mlolongo stop over..couple of dollars to Shipper councils..to organize capacity building.
And what exactly is China's contribution to such things in Kenya?
What will china do. It will help gov do what China has done.
I not asking about China might/will do, especially because I have to concrete basis to determine what it might/will do. I am asking about what it has actually done.
We have food security problem..how about you invest massive amounts of money in irrigation scheme..build a fertilizer factory..the aim to ensure we have in few yrs plentiful and cheap food. How about you build big shoe factory to turn around the fortunes of nomads. When it comes to Water...China will invest in massive water supply systems..
China will, China will, China. When will they? Kenyans and others still routinely beg for food. Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems? Where are all those factories in Kenya? (Last I heard, your were bragging about the trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.) Where in Kenya are those "massive water supply systems"?
a huge dam like the one they are building in Ethiopia and Sudan...you have problem with transport...expand the roads..modernize the railway..like SGR they have done in Kenya,Ethiopia and Nigera....
"SGR they have done in Kenya"? I haven't seen it. Anyway, as I pointed out, go look at the railways the Chinese build in places like Tanzania and so on? Kenya? We know what Kenya does with its railways.
The impact of Chinese projects are all there to be seen. There is even no need to measure or evaluate.
When it comes to generic hand-waving, you are at your best. Ati all there to be seen, no need to measure! I have already asked you about the "great things" that China has done in Kenya. You gave a list. A pathetic one. So we won't repeat that exercise?
I have also pointed out to you the dangers of "It is there! I can see it with my own eyes!". It is the mentality that leads people to focus on things like stadiums and shiny railways while diarrhea keeps killing their children and they have to regularly beg for food in order to stay alive.
Tazara and other projects by previous communist China is really desperation from your end..We are talking new China.
Again, very curious logic, and you miss the point. Whether the railway was build by "Communist China" or "new China" is completely irrelevant. The main point is that it was built, and we know what happened after that.
The China that has been doing amazing things in all countries in Africa...
Yes, I saw your list of "amazing things" in Kenya :D
Here's a thought that amused me this morning, as I reflected on these criticisms that the West has failed in Africa: the criticism are done by people who went to educational systems started by the West, used Western-developed infrastructure and facilities, use a Western language, adhere to a religion that came from the West, etc.,etc. etc. And to round it all off, convey their criticisms using technology invented by the West.
Anyway, one more time:
(1) It is not the West's responsibility to take care of Africa. So it is absurd to keep saying that they have failed in Africa.
(2) If whatever money the West has put into Africa has gone to waste---and that is yet to be established objectively---then it is not the West that has failed; it is the recipients.
(3) Africans---at least those like you who seem to think so---need to give up this idea that either the West or the East will save them. They need to start doing for themselves, and a good place to start would be to feed themselves instead of having to rely on perpetual begging.
(4) Africa needs to first focus on human development. One can eat or drink a stadium or a railway.
(http://www.bistandsaktuelt.no/ukens-tegning/arkiv-ukens-tegning/_image/390724.png?_encoded=2f66666666666678302f35382f20202020202020200a29303035286874646977656c616373202020202020202020200a&_ts=136df694742)
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Although the deal is structured badly i am still amazed that China can entrust us with 5B dollars in one deal. Your yankees friends will never do that and have never done that. China are taking a huge risk..
And that is phase 1. Phase 2 is coming shortly. Kampala should be concluding their deal.
That single china project is set to increase our GDP by 2%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! that is breathtaking stuff.
And it's not just the interest. The insurance on the Exim loan is 6.9% of the loan! Talk about getting free money from Kenyans! But Pundit will still tell you that China is giving, giving, giving.
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i am still amazed that China can entrust us with 5B dollars in one deal.
You are talking NONSENSE...The west was ready to give a small country like Rwanda $3.2BN during their Eurobond,They were also ready to give $8BN to Kenya during our Eurobond to invest in energy or whatever in just one deal,
Lets just look at the private sector the major shareholders are the west,Infact a western corporation called Boeing trusted Kenya airways with 9 Boeing 787 jets worth about $3BN Vs China $3.5BN rail loan,
Infact who will pay for the Chinese loan?Its the majority west owned corporations in Kenya like KQ EABL Equity Bank...remittances,exports and tourists from the west,
There is nothing special about China,Anyway,can you feed those starving muranga residents with rail?
Without Prejudice.
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China are taking a huge risk..
Sorry, I think I missed something somewhere. Remind me again: the 6.9% of loan for insurance is for what?
That single china project is set to increase our GDP by 2%
Having seen all sorts of economic predictions, all I can say is that you should wake me up when that happens. In the meantime, Vision 2030---of which it is supposedly a key element---confirms that it is might be a good idea. Take a look under "Benefits" here:
http://www.vision2030.go.ke/index.php/projects/details/Macro_enablers/197
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Sounds like bla de bla.
i am still amazed that China can entrust us with 5B dollars in one deal.
You are talking NONSENSE...The west was ready to give a small country like Rwanda $3.2BN during their Eurobond,They were also ready to give $8BN to Kenya during our Eurobond to invest in energy or whatever in just one deal,
Lets just look at the private sector the major shareholders are the west,Infact a western corporation called Boeing trusted Kenya airways with 9 Boeing 787 jets worth about $3BN Vs China $3.5BN rail loan,
Infact who will pay for the Chinese loan?Its the majority west owned corporations in Kenya like KQ EABL Equity Bank...remittances,exports and tourists from the west,
There is nothing special about China,Anyway,can you feed those starving muranga residents with rail?
Without Prejudice.
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Let the western aid agencies lend us at the same terms..and we will sign along the dotted lines. What is 7%..USAID financed micro-financed lenders normally charge 25%. You're just out of depth. The most competitive banks lend at 15%. Interbank rate has been low at 8%...that is base rate.
Stop smoking too much marijuana.
China are taking a huge risk..
Sorry, I think I missed something somewhere. Remind me again: the 6.9% of loan for insurance is for what?
That single china project is set to increase our GDP by 2%
Having seen all sorts of economic predictions, all I can say is that you should wake me up when that happens. In the meantime, Vision 2030---of which it is supposedly a key element---confirms that it is might be a good idea. Take a look under "Benefits" here:
http://www.vision2030.go.ke/index.php/projects/details/Macro_enablers/197
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Let the western aid agencies lend us at the same terms..and we will sign along the dotted lines. What is 7%..USAID financed micro-financed lenders normally charge 25%. You're just out of depth. The most competitive banks lend at 15%. Interbank rate has been low at 8%...that is base rate.
I don't know who these alleged "USAID financed micro-financed lenders" are. But I do know that almost all USAID money to Kenya is in the form of free--and-clear grants. In plain language that's 0%. Totally free money. No interest on loans. No insurance for the loans. Dot, dot ,dot.
I have a very good friend who works for USAID. He thinks you are an amusing fellow, even if a bit dim. Bit he stands ready to respond to any numbers. So if you have other stories, weka link na namba hapa hapa, and there will be responses pronto.
Stop smoking too much marijuana.
I don't know what your pint is, but FYI: I have not smoked marijuana in 10+ years now.
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More hair splitting.
Feel free to call it that. But, please, indulge me and "split hairs" by answering questions like:
"China will, China will, China. When will they?
Kenyans still routinely beg for food. Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems?
Where are all those factories in Kenya? Last I heard, your were bragging about the trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.
Kenyan children are dying like flies from illnesses caused by nothing more than the lack of clean drinking water. Where in Kenya are those Chinese "massive water supply systems"?
Perhaps we can flip this. Tell us one AID project by any western partners you're really proud of. I can barely count five in my one hand despite 50yrs of assistance to Africa.
You really need to give up on this West-vs-East nonsense. Try to imagine Africans doing for Africans. But I will indulge you ....
First: I am not proud of any kind of aid, from the West or elsewhere. I find it a painful and shameful embarrassment that we endlessly keep begging for something as basic as food, that our children keep dying like flies from the lack of something as simple as clean drinking water ... ... and all the time people keep yelling about sovereign and independent. 50 years, and it's still going on.
I think we should do for ourselves. As I said, before you tell me how we will have a railway for 100 years, tell me how we will feed ourselves for 100 years.
Second: I have already tried to point this out ... it is not for the West or East to take responsibility for Africa. So it is infantile to demand explanations for why their assistance has not worked; instead, one should carefully look at those getting assistance.
Saidia, saidia, saidia, ... and if we continue to mess up, it is your fault and we'll turn East! Sigh. Some rethinking is necessary here.
Third: Having said that, there are some things I am grateful for, given that African "leaders" are devoted to everything except the welfare of their citizens, and some of those citizens are unable to free themselves from the saidia-saidia mentality.
Since this is a Kenyan forum, I will give you 4 examples, on different scales:
(1) Food aid: I hate to think of the numbers that would be dead by now if it had not been for a positive response to the perpetual saidia-saidia-saidia, always accompanied by gut-wrenching photos of filthy, skeletal people surrounded with flies.
That this food aid is never---and will never be---a permanent solution is not a reflection on those who provide it. It says more about those who chose to focus on other things. And, for sure nobody ever lived by eating steel from a railway line or a brick from a stadium wall.
(2) HIV/AIDS: Kenya's future development will depend on its ability to, at the very least keep alive a substantial chunk of its most productive populace, and a fair bit of that is infected.
Kenyans should be very grateful that the USA is doing so much, by way of paying for ARVs (and other interventions) for so many. True, it's not a stadium or a railway; but to my mind it is far better to be alive without those than to be six feet under the Chinese SGR.
(3) Education: Kenyans have been very excited about free primary-school education. That's actually largely funded by the Nasty West. Still, this being Kenya, some things seem inevitable:
Corruption Puts Kenya’s Educational Funding at Risk
...
Elimu Yetu fears the future of the free primary education program could be jeopardized should the Kenyan government be cut out completely by international and local donors.
(4) Malaria: I took note of your derision of USAID mosquito-nets. I grew up in a malaria-endemic part of Kenya, and I know what it can do to people even if it does not kill them. So I am grateful that while the GoK has been doing bugger-all, USAID has done a great deal in that area. That's more Kenyans who will still be alive to ride on the Chinese SGR.
Now you have this wierd notion of what development really is. For you development is what handing a beggar food..not taking the beggar out of the street. I am not sure what development philosophy this belongs to..it look to me like emergency band aid...that US and EU have been conducting in Africa for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not have any such notion. My notion is that Africans need to start by focusing on such basic things as being able to feed themsleves. The beggar should stop waiting to be taken "out of the street" and instead walk out on his own two feet.
I will not repeat what is above---that the "emergency band aid" has saved countless lives. If the USA and the EU have been involved in non-working "emergency band aid" for 50 years, the most pressing questions have to be these:
(a) Why is Africa perpetually in need of "emergency band aid", after 50 years of its "leaders" shouting about sovereign-and-independent.
(b) What exactly are Africans doing for themselves to ensure that they will not need "emergency band aid" in the future.
Please stop telling me how the USA and the EU have failed, especially when they keep getting told to fuck off with neo-colonial imperialism, because Africa is now sovereign-and-independent. I would rather hear about
(a) what Africans have been doing to succeed; and
(b) what Africans plan to do for the future, beyond the never-ending "the situtaion is desperate now; the international community needs to do something".
Development. Sustainable Development. Human development. Just look at what Chinese are doing. That railway line will reduce travel cost and time.. and multiplier effect on everything including
I was tempted to ask for details about this "multiplier effect", but you have a funny way with numbers, and i don't think we'll get far on cooked-up figures.
Sustainable development? Human development? Very funny. Even your Great China itself first focused on being able to feed its people, as did other Asians nations that have done so much better than us.
The SGR will reduce time and cost, eh? Kenya, 50 years ago, had a perfectly decent railway. Narrow-gauge. After failing to maintain and properly use it, the "bright" solution is a costly new line. Standard-gauge.
Kenya's Great SGR will allow speeds of 80-120 kph. Fantastic. A Japanese railway expert that the EAC countries asked for advice had this to say: (a) the focus on gauge is misplaced and unnecessary; (b) Japan has for years had had higher speeds on narrow-gauge, 130-160 kph; and (c) unless maintenance is taken seriously, this is a futile exercise. [He emphasized the last point, on which African history speaks for itself.]
Elsewhere you have claimed that the West have for years been building roads and railways that them went to the dogs. And the Chinese ones? Will they be made of hyper-special steel and tarmac that is not only self-maintaining but also edible during famines and drinkable at times of thirst?
My fundamental view is not about West vs. East. It is about how we can uplift ourselves? You say the West has failed in 50 years? As I see it, if true, it should confirm the dangers of relying on others.
I want us to work feeding ourselves, our children not dying from easily-preventable diseases, and so on and so forth. And, as far as I can tell, much of the basics do not require stadiums or railway lines. But they do require that we change some thinking and priorities.
I'd like imagine an Africa beyond saidia-saidia-saidia. The next 50 years to be radicaly different from the last 50 years of sovereign-and-independent. And looking at the historical facts, I will not share your enthusiasm for Kung Fu.
You say that
Africa is basket case beggar who is incredibly corrupt and irresponsible..this is supported by overwhelming evidence..am not prepared to argue about.
Indeed.
Only Africans will change that, and they better start working on it. Serious, hard work. Neither Chinese loans nor Western aid come with a cure-all for incredible corruption and irresponsibility.
Kung Fu as the Great Saviour? I visit that country often, and they have nothing but contempt for us and our apparent inability to improve our lot.
Instead of a dubious "discussion" on whether to bend over for pink sausage or to bend over for spring-roll, how about one on standing upright, as human beings?
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Now you've tied yourself in knots. You're now all over. You have been defending western AID but now you have look for easy way out...the corrupt African leaders and it's people.
US, West, China and everyone else (including you) has been through where we have been...and they've needed help..genuine help along the way.
What we need are genuine friends offering genuine help...China to me appear such.
There is no doubt that after 15yrs engagment with Africa. Africa is now rising..classic example..Ethiopia has been growing at double digit..when US and EU long declared it the classic Africa basket case that was annually begging food in their annual famine festival.
Look at countries growing at double digit in Africa..and you'll find their engagment with China is very deep.
We were late into the Chinese gravy but thank goodness we are on it now. The future can only be bright with SGR, with modern roads, with more electricity, with better security.
More hair splitting.
Feel free to call it that. But, please, indulge me and "split hairs" by answering questions like:
"China will, China will, China. When will they?
Kenyans still routinely beg for food. Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems?
Where are all those factories in Kenya? Last I heard, your were bragging about the trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.
Kenyan children are dying like flies from illnesses caused by nothing more than the lack of clean drinking water. Where in Kenya are those Chinese "massive water supply systems"?
Perhaps we can flip this. Tell us one AID project by any western partners you're really proud of. I can barely count five in my one hand despite 50yrs of assistance to Africa.
You really need to give up on this West-vs-East nonsense. Try to imagine Africans doing for Africans. But I will indulge you ....
First: I am not proud of any kind of aid, from the West or elsewhere. I find it a painful and shameful embarrassment that we endlessly keep begging for something as basic as food, that our children keep dying like flies from the lack of something as simple as clean drinking water ... ... and all the time people keep yelling about sovereign and independent. 50 years, and it's still going on.
I think we should do for ourselves. As I said, before you tell me how we will have a railway for 100 years, tell me how we will feed ourselves for 100 years.
Second: I have already tried to point this out ... it is not for the West or East to take responsibility for Africa. So it is infantile to demand explanations for why their assistance has not worked; instead, one should carefully look at those getting assistance.
Saidia, saidia, saidia, ... and if we continue to mess up, it is your fault and we'll turn East! Sigh. Some rethinking is necessary here.
Third: Having said that, there are some things I am grateful for, given that African "leaders" are devoted to everything except the welfare of their citizens, and some of those citizens are unable to free themselves from the saidia-saidia mentality.
Since this is a Kenyan forum, I will give you 4 examples, on different scales:
(1) Food aid: I hate to think of the numbers that would be dead by now if it had not been for a positive response to the perpetual saidia-saidia-saidia, always accompanied by gut-wrenching photos of filthy, skeletal people surrounded with flies.
That this food aid is never---and will never be---a permanent solution is not a reflection on those who provide it. It says more about those who chose to focus on other things. And, for sure nobody ever lived by eating steel from a railway line or a brick from a stadium wall.
(2) HIV/AIDS: Kenya's future development will depend on its ability to, at the very least keep alive a substantial chunk of its most productive populace, and a fair bit of that is infected.
Kenyans should be very grateful that the USA is doing so much, by way of paying for ARVs (and other interventions) for so many. True, it's not a stadium or a railway; but to my mind it is far better to be alive without those than to be six feet under the Chinese SGR.
(3) Education: Kenyans have been very excited about free primary-school education. That's actually largely funded by the Nasty West. Still, this being Kenya, some things seem inevitable:
Corruption Puts Kenya’s Educational Funding at Risk
...
Elimu Yetu fears the future of the free primary education program could be jeopardized should the Kenyan government be cut out completely by international and local donors.
(4) Malaria: I took note of your derision of USAID mosquito-nets. I grew up in a malaria-endemic part of Kenya, and I know what it can do to people even if it does not kill them. So I am grateful that while the GoK has been doing bugger-all, USAID has done a great deal in that area. That's more Kenyans who will still be alive to ride on the Chinese SGR.
Now you have this wierd notion of what development really is. For you development is what handing a beggar food..not taking the beggar out of the street. I am not sure what development philosophy this belongs to..it look to me like emergency band aid...that US and EU have been conducting in Africa for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not have any such notion. My notion is that Africans need to start by focusing on such basic things as being able to feed themsleves. The beggar should stop waiting to be taken "out of the street" and instead walk out on his own two feet.
I will not repeat what is above---that the "emergency band aid" has saved countless lives. If the USA and the EU have been involved in non-working "emergency band aid" for 50 years, the most pressing questions have to be these:
(a) Why is Africa perpetually in need of "emergency band aid", after 50 years of its "leaders" shouting about sovereign-and-independent.
(b) What exactly are Africans doing for themselves to ensure that they will not need "emergency band aid" in the future.
Please stop telling me how the USA and the EU have failed, especially when they keep getting told to fuck off with neo-colonial imperialism, because Africa is now sovereign-and-independent. I would rather hear about
(a) what Africans have been doing to succeed; and
(b) what Africans plan to do for the future, beyond the never-ending "the situtaion is desperate now; the international community needs to do something".
Development. Sustainable Development. Human development. Just look at what Chinese are doing. That railway line will reduce travel cost and time.. and multiplier effect on everything including
I was tempted to ask for details about this "multiplier effect", but you have a funny way with numbers, and i don't think we'll get far on cooked-up figures.
Sustainable development? Human development? Very funny. Even your Great China itself first focused on being able to feed its people, as did other Asians nations that have done so much better than us.
The SGR will reduce time and cost, eh? Kenya, 50 years ago, had a perfectly decent railway. Narrow-gauge. After failing to maintain and properly use it, the "bright" solution is a costly new line. Standard-gauge.
Kenya's Great SGR will allow speeds of 80-120 kph. Fantastic. A Japanese railway expert that the EAC countries asked for advice had this to say: (a) the focus on gauge is misplaced and unnecessary; (b) Japan has for years had had higher speeds on narrow-gauge, 130-160 kph; and (c) unless maintenance is taken seriously, this is a futile exercise. [He emphasized the last point, on which African history speaks for itself.]
Elsewhere you have claimed that the West have for years been building roads and railways that them went to the dogs. And the Chinese ones? Will they be made of hyper-special steel and tarmac that is not only self-maintaining but also edible during famines and drinkable at times of thirst?
My fundamental view is not about West vs. East. It is about how we can uplift ourselves? You say the West has failed in 50 years? As I see it, if true, it should confirm the dangers of relying on others.
I want us to work feeding ourselves, our children not dying from easily-preventable diseases, and so on and so forth. And, as far as I can tell, much of the basics do not require stadiums or railway lines. But they do require that we change some thinking and priorities.
I'd like imagine an Africa beyond saidia-saidia-saidia. The next 50 years to be radicaly different from the last 50 years of sovereign-and-independent. And looking at the historical facts, I will not share your enthusiasm for Kung Fu.
You say that
Africa is basket case beggar who is incredibly corrupt and irresponsible..this is supported by overwhelming evidence..am not prepared to argue about.
Indeed.
Only Africans will change that, and they better start working on it. Serious, hard work. Neither Chinese loans nor Western aid come with a cure-all for incredible corruption and irresponsibility.
Kung Fu as the Great Saviour? I visit that country often, and they have nothing but contempt for us and our apparent inability to improve our lot.
Instead of a dubious "discussion" on whether to bend over for pink sausage or to bend over for spring-roll, how about one on standing upright, as human beings?
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Why do folks take WB or IMF or UN to be part of Western AID/Gov. Those are global mulitateral insitutions where kenya and 200 other countries have shareholding. The US & EU does misuse them for political reasons..but without strong arm [like vetos and refusal to increase WB/IMF capital]..their influence at those institutions would be at par with other countries.
Thankfully China has not only rolled out their own banks but have worked with BRICS to develop banks that can respond to 21st century development issues...
Banks not afraid to lent 10B dollars to poor basket case African country.
Here we have a circuitous debate which reveals the following: Beijing is flexing her muscles in Africa and, in turn, Africans are becoming heavily indebted to Beijing. On the SGR project, Kenya funded a mere 10% (correct me if am wrong), and Exim Bank of China financed the balance through two separate loans to be repaid by the GoK from future rail revenues; thus it is conceivable that Beijing will be running the SGR as a concession.
Meanwhile, last week, Kenya turned to the Bretton Woods institutions and received the Fund's imprimatur sealing a $504.3m Stand-Buy Agreement and a smaller $194m Stand-By Credit Facility. Of note upon reading a snippet of the deal is the following: [the] new precautionary financing arrangements would provide a policy anchor for continued macroeconomic and institutional reforms...[and] durable poverty reduction. To achieve the latter, we are likely to see more cleaning up of Kibera, Mathare and other slums in a quest to appease the Fund and The Bank. Wazees in hamlets, townships and villages all across Kenya will see a rise in their monthly allowances from Nairobi.
The proof is in the IMF Conditionality.
Unless I am missing something I would hope not to be one of..."the folks who take WB or IMF or UN to be part of Western AID/Gov." The distinction is important. The essence of my point was to draw the clear distinction that whereas the recent IMF-GoK loan agreement was noted for its transparency, unfortunately, the loan agreement for the SGR negotiated between Beijing and Nairobi was shrouded in opacity. Notwithstanding the fact that as a matter of public policy in a democratic state, it would not be asking too much if the political class had taken just a little bit of time to educate the wananchi about the supposed merits of the project and the use of their hard earned shillings.
Inasmuch as I do not dispute your second point-- that the two Bretton Woods institutions have been misused for political reasons by the US and EU-- there is absolutely no guarantee that the envisaged BRICs bank - the New Development Bank - will not fall victim to the same vagaries of politics as the aforementioned. As the biggest shareholder in the bank Beijings power cannot or will not be gainsaid. That's how institutions are/work.
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Now you've tied yourself in knots. You're now all over. You have been defending western AID but now you have look for easy way out...the corrupt African leaders and it's people.
First: Your argument has been that the West has failed in Africa because the aid it has given Africa has done much good. I hope I have helped you see the flaw in your reasoning. And seeing that flaw does not require a determination of whether the aid has worked or not.
Second: What knots? It appears that you have not been reading much of what I wrote, although in some places I put in red bold font by way of encouraging. Here is some of it again, in the original red bold font:
Anyway, one more time:
(1) It is not the West's responsibility to take care of Africa. So it is absurd to keep saying that they have failed in Africa.
(2) If whatever money the West has put into Africa has gone to waste---and that is yet to be established objectively---then it is not the West that has failed; it is the recipients.
(3) Africans---at least those like you who seem to think so---need to give up this idea that either the West or the East will save them. They need to start doing for themselves, and a good place to start would be to feed themselves instead of having to rely on perpetual begging.
(4) Africa needs to first focus on human development. One can eat or drink a stadium or a railway.
and
Africa has to start taking human development much more seriously. Until that happens, the place will remain a perpetual basket case of beggars---shiny new railway and stadium, from borrowed money, but can't even feed themselves.
The future can only be bright with SGR, with modern roads, with more electricity, with better security.
If you say so. But try to throw in some small things like food.
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I believe no matter who does what for Kenya. Nothing is going to change for the better until the Kenyan realizes he is nobody's burden. There are no shortcuts. No country has ever been developed by another.
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Maybe cuttting Moonki vaunted AID and replacing it with Chinese Loans (to be re-paid with interest) and Investment(if profitable) will help Africans do that. Kenyan is doing fairly well in that regard..from 90s when AID formed 50% of the budget..to now when we self-finance 95%.
Moonki AID in the meantime is mostly entrenching dependency sydrome in places like Ukambani, Nyanza (now-HIV/Globla fund) and most of northern kenya...folks have become so used to free yellow maize...it seem impossible how one can teach them about no short cuts.
Geographically about 2/3 of kenya landmass has been on WFP/Kenya gov yellow maize (from Illinois) for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!
That is what Moonki is celebrating....while deriding Chinese loans and investments.
I believe no matter who does what for Kenya. Nothing is going to change for the better until the Kenyan realizes he is nobody's burden. There are no shortcuts. No country has ever been developed by another.
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I believe no matter who does what for Kenya. Nothing is going to change for the better until the Kenyan realizes he is nobody's burden. There are no shortcuts. No country has ever been developed by another.
And that's what the political class in Kenya fails to capture. Putting their eggs in one basket--China-- will come a cropper for several reasons:
- China will not meddle in Kenyan or African internal affairs until her interests are threatened; they now have combat soldiers in South Sudan.
- The current account deficit between Beijing and Nairobi has been increasing on a year-on-year basis.
- Having a president lacking in critical thinking skills percolates to the rest of the populace. Uhuru rants at the AU about supposedly declining Western powers then turns around and begs them to lift their travel advisories. The cornerstone of tourism in Kenya? The vilified declining powers + Japan.
- An immense 36,000 Chinese tourists visited Kenya in 2014. And that is without a travel advisory.
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Maybe cuttting Moonki vaunted AID and replacing it with Chinese Loans (to be re-paid with interest) and Investment(if profitable) will help Africans do that. Kenyan is doing fairly well in that regard..from 90s when AID formed 50% of the budget..to now when we self-finance 95%.
He, he, he ... So you too have been swallowing that little trick. Budget/Off-Budget is just a game. Are those billions (dollars) in grants included in this 95% budget?
Please go back and look at what actually happened. At some point, GoK made the deliberate decision that most aid would not be included in the budget ... supposedly because it is not guaranteed. So almost all of it is now "off-budget", and you have the situation where USAID alone--no need to consider others---spends far more on Kenyan health than GoK spends in its budget, but GoK can still say it is funding ninety-whatever-percent of the health budget.
The real reality is when donors warn, as they did this week, that people should not fuck with their money:
http://www.nation.co.ke/news/politics/Donors-warn-counties-on-fund-use/-/1064/2619986/-/cofvy6/-/index.html
And sometimes they mean business, such as when they cut off the money for the "free primary education from the serikali yetu" because some of it was getting eaten.
Geographically about 2/3 of kenya landmass has been on WFP/Kenya gov yellow maize (from Illinois) for 50yrs!!!!!!!!!
Yellow maize for 50 years, eh? And 2/3 of the landmass? Wow. And instead of being concerned about starting to figure out to how feed themselves, quite a few Kenyans are jerking off about Kung Fu railway, as if they will be able to eat that? Amazing. Truly amazing. Always, China will, China will, China will. When will we?
deriding Chinese loans and investments.
The Great Chinese Stuff again? Once again:
"China will, China will, China. When will they?
Kenyans still routinely beg for food. Where in Kenya are the Chinese-built irrigation systems?
Where are all those factories in Kenya? Last I heard, your were bragging about the trade volume because Kenyans keep importing cheap junk from there.
Kenyan children are dying like flies from illnesses caused by nothing more than the lack of clean drinking water. Where in Kenya are those Chinese "massive water supply systems"?
Now, scroll back along this thread, and if you see anything in red bold font, do this:
READ IT!
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Kagame butts in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Qh26sXNj7eY#t=0
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Kagame butts in
Kagame is a charismatic man. And a bad leader. The kind who will never permit the country to function without him. They usually leave the scene, a trail destruction in their wake. Their "good works" don't survive beyond their regime.
He is right that Africa should prefer trade rather than aid. The truth is Rwanda has been trading for a long time. Mostly things that come from the ground. Rwandans are not making things or providing services that other people want.
You would think that cheap labor would be a start. But you will never see any of the things that cheap labor makes coming from Rwanda.
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Kagame is a funny man. It would be hard to imagine how Rwanda could survive without foreign aid ... and Mr. Kagame has done what to wean them off?. Put aside the freebie grants that are not even in the budget ... Rwanda's official budget has for long been financed by foreigners ... by up to 48%-50%. Lately, it has been down to "just" 40%.
Here's a man who knows something about both Kagame and Rwanda's economy:
"Why I quit as Rwandan President Paul Kagame’s economic advisor: his tyranny and lies" (David Himbara, Jan 2015)
http://qz.com/327694/why-i-quit-as-rwandan-president-paul-kagames-economic-advisor-tyranny-and-lies/
"I resigned not only because he was tyrannizing the nation, but also because he asked me to tamper with the truth about the economy."
Rwanda's so-called economic miracle is nothing more than a lot of aid for a relatively small population. And on the side, there is also some money from little things like sending "peacekeepers" to all sorts of places.
This is Africa, and asante ya punda ni? So, naturally, Kagame, like his aid-dependent buddy, Museveni, is one of the toughest talkers against "imperialism" and "neo-colonialism". But it is not clear that he can indefinitely milk the collective guilt that the world feels over the 1994 genocide.
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You would think that cheap labor would be a start. But you will never see any of the things that cheap labor makes coming from Rwanda.
That can be extrapolated to most of The Beloved Continent, which once again seems to be missing the boat. Hardly anybody makes anything anywhere. Cheap Chinese junk is preferred, but nobody seems to be interested in learning any useful lessons from Kung Fu ... not even when it comes to self-sufficiency in food.
Kung Fu has done well from its cheap labour, which has led to all sorts of folks having their manufacturing down there, not to mention the tidy sums to be made from selling cheap-made junk to suckers. But wages are rising, and even Kung Fu himself is now beginning to outsource the really low-end stuff to "lesser" Asian countries. And Africa?
The rising wages in China should have been opportunity for African countries to step in and fill the gap, given the large number of youthful idlers that the continent has. That has not happened. Instead, those who used to outsource to Kung Fu are now heading to places like Vietnam, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, etc.. And Kung himself is doing the same
Another thing:
Putting aside "economic benefits", a large and young populace that is mostly is idle is a ticking time-bomb, even in reasonably-adjusted places like Kenya. In fact it is even worse in places like Kenya, where education, access to technology (TV and internet) etc. makes the youth more aware of the external world and keeps raising expectations.
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Kagame butts in
Kagame is a charismatic man. And a bad leader. The kind who will never permit the country to function without him. They usually leave the scene, a trail destruction in their wake. Their "good works" don't survive beyond their regime.
He is right that Africa should prefer trade rather than aid. The truth is Rwanda has been trading for a long time. Mostly things that come from the ground. Rwandans are not making things or providing services that other people want.
You would think that cheap labor would be a start. But you will never see any of the things that cheap labor makes coming from Rwanda.
That's one rambling and utterly incoherent speech by Kagame. He is your typical African leader - lives in a world of platitudes.
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You would think that cheap labor would be a start. But you will never see any of the things that cheap labor makes coming from Rwanda.
That can be extrapolated to most of The Beloved Continent, which once again seems to be missing the boat. Hardly anybody makes anything anywhere. Cheap Chinese junk is preferred, but nobody seems to be interested in learning any useful lessons from Kung Fu ... not even when it comes to self-sufficiency in food.
Kung Fu has done well from its cheap labour, which has led to all sorts of folks having their manufacturing down there, not to mention the tidy sums to be made from selling cheap-made junk to suckers. But wages are rising, and even Kung Fu himself is now beginning to outsource the really low-end stuff to "lesser" Asian countries. And Africa?
The rising wages in China should have been opportunity for African countries to step in and fill the gap, given the large number of youthful idlers that the continent has. That has not happened. Instead, those who used to outsource to Kung Fu are now heading to places like Vietnam, Indonesia, Cambodia, Laos, etc.. And Kung himself is doing the same
Another thing:
Putting aside "economic benefits", a large and young populace that is mostly is idle is a ticking time-bomb, even in reasonably-adjusted places like Kenya. In fact it is even worse in places like Kenya, where education, access to technology (TV and internet) etc. makes the youth more aware of the external world and keeps raising expectations.
It seems rather obvious why the Kenyatta government (and Kibaki's) would opt for Chinese mega projects - the lack of probity and the concomitant opportunities for rent seeking. Chinese technology is 100% inferior to that of the Japanese; ersatz in all facets.
Recently in S.E. Asia, the Burmese decided that they's had enough of Chinese duplicity and arrogance. They opted for the Japanese to construct the Myanmar-Cambodian Rail. http://www.bangkokpost.com/learning/learning-from-news/461169/thai-japan-railway-to-link-burma-cambodia
Note how the project has linkages and spin-offs, including an integrated steel mill. That's how you develop an economy.
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I know this is a slightly different subject, here is OECD aid at a glance http://www.oecd.org/countries/kenya/aid-at-a-glance.htm (http://www.oecd.org/countries/kenya/aid-at-a-glance.htm).
I hadn't realized how much Kenya receives from the US - it's one of the biggest recipients from that source.
(http://www.oecd.org/dac/stats/documentupload/KEN.JPG)
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I hadn't realized how much Kenya receives from the US - it's one of the biggest recipients from that source.
USA aid to Kenya rose very rapidly from the time a certain fellow got into the White House. I recall a US Congressional budget hearing in which the USAID person stated that the figures had been increasingly so rapidly that they could hire people fast enough to manage the Kenyan file.
The figures you give are actually probably conservative and don't include all the amounts. For example, I believe the 2011 figures don't include about another $200 million in emergency humanitarian relief.
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The question remain where has 700M USD gone?
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The question remain where has 700M USD gone?
Food and health are the most basic human needs, and for folks like me and other average people, it is probably the biggest expense after housing. So, a question: You give someone money to buy food or medicine that keeps him alive. What should he say when you ask "where did the money go?". Once again, I refer people to my comments on focusing on "things I can see with my own eyes!".
Beyond that, there seems to exist the notion that the US government does not finance infrastructure projects in Kenya or elsewhere in Africa. That is not the case. The Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC), the U.S. Government’s development finance institution does finance quite a few. A couple of recent (last couple of years) Kenyan examples that have no connection with the annual hundreds-of-millions in grants (USAID etc.):
* $310 million for the Olkaria III geothermal plant
* $253 million for the Lake Turkana Wind Power project
* $233 million for the Kipeto wind power project in Kajiado
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The money simply went into the bottomless pit of unaccountable NGOS with doubful if not zero impact. Now OPIC is interesting...that is what US should focus more..sustainable development. I'll need to check Olkaria...III..happen maybe yrs ago..but current one being commissioned..the 280MW is financed by Japanese. The Obama energy thing..is indeed now financing i think Turkana and Kinagop.
US for it's wealth should do more..like the Chinese, the Japanese and the French have been doing in Kenya...financing really sustainable development project...not sending 700M USD to buy condoms,yellow maize,mosquito nets, capacity building, youth training, conference and god knows what....that nobody has really asked for.
Kenyans want roads, railways, power stations, latest tech and whatever passses for development in the west..
Food and health are the most basic human needs, and for folks like me and other average people, it is probably the biggest expense after housing. So, a question: You give someone money to buy food or medicine that keeps him alive. What should he say when you ask "where did the money go?". Once again, I refer people to my comments on focusing on "things I can see with my own eyes!".
Beyond that, there seems to exist the notion that the US government does not finance infrastructure projects in Kenya or elsewhere in Africa. That is not the case. The Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC), the U.S. Government’s development finance institution does finance quite a few. A couple of recent (last couple of years) Kenyan examples that have no connection with the annual hundreds-of-millions in grants (USAID etc.):
* $310 million for the Olkaria III geothermal plant
* $253 million for the Lake Turkana Wind Power project
* $233 million for the Kipeto wind power project in Kajiado
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The money simply went into the bottomless pit of unaccountable NGOS with doubful if not zero impact.
Once again, is that attitude of "things before people" that means Kenyans are still dying like flies from diseases and always begging to be fed by others. We can go back and forth on the "doubtful if zero impact", which you simply assert "like that"; I prefer to look at the concrete results that USAID states when it has to justify what it does with American taxpayers' money.
US for it's wealth should do more..like the Chinese, the Japanese and the French have been doing in Kenya...financing really sustainable development project...not sending 700M USD
Sustainable development is building things? In that case, a question: the British left a perfectly good railway; what did Kenyans do with it?
Once again, I will repeat what I have already stated: countries like Kenya should forget the idea of other countries "doing more" for them. They should learn how to and start doing for themselves. That is the only kind of sustainable development that will happen. Otherwise the next 50 years will be no different from the last.
to buy condoms,yellow maize,mosquito nets, capacity building, youth training, conference and god knows what....that nobody has really asked for.
Oh, somebody did and always does: Kenyans. Do you ever look at Kenya's annual begging list whenever it is submitted to Washington?
Kenyans want roads, railways, power stations, latest tech and whatever passses for development in the west..
They should first want to eat and be healthy. What "passes for development in the west" can come later. Whether it is West or East, those countries that Kenya wishes to emulate first learned to feed themselves. Knowing how to do that would be a better import from China than all that cheap junk. Just the other day, none other than His Excellency's wife again dished up the usual grim figures:
"First Lady Margaret Kenyatta has decried the 19,000 deaths annually, due to malnutrition. Mrs Kenyatta said another 2 million Kenyan children do not reach their mental and physical potential, resulting from stunted growth"
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/19000-children-dying-malnutrition-annually-says-margaret-kenyatta#sthash.SlGVoM25.dpuf
The article got fewer reader's comments than many of the nonsense articles in that paper. That reflects a mindset that needs to change.
African countries would actually really fly if they would first focus on (a) the basics of human development and (b) how to govern themselves.
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The money simply went into the bottomless pit of unaccountable NGOS with doubful if not zero impact.
Once again, is that attitude of "things before people" that means Kenyans are still dying like flies from diseases and always begging to be fed by others. We can go back and forth on the "doubtful if zero impact", which you simply assert "like that"; I prefer to look at the concrete results that USAID states when it has to justify what it does with American taxpayers' money.
US for it's wealth should do more..like the Chinese, the Japanese and the French have been doing in Kenya...financing really sustainable development project...not sending 700M USD
Sustainable development is building things? In that case, a question: the British left a perfectly good railway; what did Kenyans do with it?
Once again, I will repeat what I have already stated: countries like Kenya should forget the idea of other countries "doing more" for them. They should learn how to and start doing for themselves. That is the only kind of sustainable development that will happen. Otherwise the next 50 years will be no different from the last.
to buy condoms,yellow maize,mosquito nets, capacity building, youth training, conference and god knows what....that nobody has really asked for.
Oh, somebody did and always does: Kenyans. Do you ever look at Kenya's annual begging list whenever it is submitted to Washington?
Kenyans want roads, railways, power stations, latest tech and whatever passses for development in the west..
They should first want to eat and be healthy. What "passes for development in the west" can come later. Whether it is West or East, those countries that Kenya wishes to emulate first learned to feed themselves. Knowing how to do that would be a better import from China than all that cheap junk. Just the other day, none other than His Excellency's wife again dished up the usual grim figures:
"First Lady Margaret Kenyatta has decried the 19,000 deaths annually, due to malnutrition. Mrs Kenyatta said another 2 million Kenyan children do not reach their mental and physical potential, resulting from stunted growth"
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/19000-children-dying-malnutrition-annually-says-margaret-kenyatta#sthash.SlGVoM25.dpuf
The article got fewer reader's comments than many of the nonsense articles in that paper. That reflects a mindset that needs to change.
African countries would actually really fly if they would first focus on (a) the basics of human development and (b) how to govern themselves.
No modern human society has developed on the basis of economic growth alone sans economic and social development. Equatorial Guinea and Angola are two examples of countries with growth without development. Heck, add Kenya to that list too.
As I've followed this debate from its outset, I aver that MOON Ki has captured best the concept of development. In fact, I would go so far as to state that the centrality of sustainable development and its convergence with other factors of development, that is, respect for the rule of law, pluralism, public accountability, human rights and market principles are the essential conditions for just, equitable and enduring economic development.
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China continues to develop without all that..and so has many other countries including Malaysia and most of South Asians. China managed to pull out nearly 500M out of poverty in a single generation (never been done before)....through reforms in agriculture and of course huge mega infrastructure project.
There is really no need for debate on what development really is....you'll know development when you see one.
I aver that MOON Ki has captured best the concept of development. In fact, I would go so far as to state that the centrality of sustainable development and its convergence with other factors of development, that is, respect for the rule of law, pluralism, public accountability, human rights and market principles are the essential conditions for just, equitable and enduring economic development.
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Yet another feeble defence of US's 700M USD that goes mostly into bottomless pits. Trust me because i have evaluated and monitored several million dollar projects by the same USAID/DFID/name them..and i can tell you without doubt... it is VERY VERY VERY RARE to find a project that has had a positive impact...most are in the zero impact territory...and some are in fact negatively impacting development. We are talking PROVEN measurable impact...which might be difficult for you because clearly tonnes of condoms(maybe positive 0.00001%), mosquito nets (temporary + zero) and yellow maize (-ve including our maize farmers) impacted us somewhere...
I think one time we calculated how much aid per capita has gone into NEP...and it was mind-boggling..and yet there is nothing to show in those dusty sandy places....USAID will not even get a thank you from folks there..the money simply disappeared in thin air. I wonder what NEP would have been if USAID had dedicated all that money in building a tarmac road from Garissa to Mandera...a meat processing plant in Garissa..and irrigation project in Mandera.
Now compare to 300M USD that Japan has lent us to develop kshs 90B's Oklaria IV and V (Kengen...through kenyans contributed 700MUSD)..and we just injected a total of 280MW.
That 280MW has reduced our reliance of thermal & hyrdo generators and reduce the cost of power by 30%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! in the whole of kenya...30% reduction in more stabler electricity..a major component in HH and industrial budget..is big news...the multiplier effect wacha tu. USAID would kill to publish such figures. China's SGR you can imagine is going to add 2% GDP every yr..for next 3yrs...those are truly amazing stuff..if you know what numbers we are talking about.
US simply have their priorities upside down.
Teach the people how to fish...do not give them fish.
Let USAID focus on really impactful projects.....if they build 100B water dam like French did in Ndakainin to deal with perennial water problems in Nariobi (Ndakaini that frenchies built in 90s can only produce half the water we need as Nairobi continue to grow)....it will reduce diarhoea and all those diseases that USAID really "love" plus ensuring watsan in Nairobi is truly secured...rather than going round teaching folks how to wash their hands..at cost of lots of USD.
Kenya Railways is not the first mismanaged project..here or in kenya....so quit making a meal about it.
Either the guys in US are dumb (which isn't true) or they are just cynical in how to help a country.
And every country esp a poor one need help. Stop long lectures on that. We all need help at some point.
Once again, is that attitude of "things before people" that means Kenyans are still dying like flies from diseases and always begging to be fed by others. We can go back and forth on the "doubtful if zero impact", which you simply assert "like that"; I prefer to look at the concrete results that USAID states when it has to justify what it does with American taxpayers' money.
US for it's wealth should do more..like the Chinese, the Japanese and the French have been doing in Kenya...financing really sustainable development project...not sending 700M USD
Sustainable development is building things? In that case, a question: the British left a perfectly good railway; what did Kenyans do with it?
Once again, I will repeat what I have already stated: countries like Kenya should forget the idea of other countries "doing more" for them. They should learn how to and start doing for themselves. That is the only kind of sustainable development that will happen. Otherwise the next 50 years will be no different from the last.
to buy condoms,yellow maize,mosquito nets, capacity building, youth training, conference and god knows what....that nobody has really asked for.
Oh, somebody did and always does: Kenyans. Do you ever look at Kenya's annual begging list whenever it is submitted to Washington?
Kenyans want roads, railways, power stations, latest tech and whatever passses for development in the west..
They should first want to eat and be healthy. What "passes for development in the west" can come later. Whether it is West or East, those countries that Kenya wishes to emulate first learned to feed themselves. Knowing how to do that would be a better import from China than all that cheap junk. Just the other day, none other than His Excellency's wife again dished up the usual grim figures:
"First Lady Margaret Kenyatta has decried the 19,000 deaths annually, due to malnutrition. Mrs Kenyatta said another 2 million Kenyan children do not reach their mental and physical potential, resulting from stunted growth"
http://www.the-star.co.ke/news/19000-children-dying-malnutrition-annually-says-margaret-kenyatta#sthash.SlGVoM25.dpuf
The article got fewer reader's comments than many of the nonsense articles in that paper. That reflects a mindset that needs to change.
African countries would actually really fly if they would first focus on (a) the basics of human development and (b) how to govern themselves.
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Yet another feeble defence of US's 700M USD that goes mostly into bottomless pits.
For one, I have pointed out food and medicine that keep people alive. I take it you have no counter to that one. At any rate, there is no need for me to add anything to what I have already stated, as you are determined to believe whatever you will. Nor will I comment again on this idea that the USA or anybody else should be doing this or that in Kenya or elsewhere in Africa. In any case, to the extent that any money from the USA (or elsewhere) gets wasted in places like Kenya---and it is not enough for you to merely claim that it is---you have to look at the people who are receiving it.
On the bright side of this little exercise, I note that you have now moved beyond the Chinese and have discovered the French and the Japanese. That is good. You now need to move beyond the idea that any of them will save Kenya and do what Kenyans will not do for themselves.
China's SGR you can imagine is going to add 2% GDP every yr..for next 3yrs...those are truly amazing stuff..if you know what numbers we are talking about.
There you go again, simply making up numbers. Where did you get that one? Please provide some concrete basis it (i.e. not "I heard it"),
Teach the people how to fish...do not give them fish.
You need to move beyond clichés. But seeing that you mention food: how do Kenyans plan to feed themselves? Eat the SGR? As we write here, Kenyans kids are falling like flies. Can we hear something about that and then go back to railways etc.? The Chinese that you worship learned how to feed themselves before they focused on making cheap junk. Can Kenyans learn too, by themselves or from your Chinese friends? When?
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Yet another feeble attempt... Food and Medicine..how is that given.How does shipping yellow Maize or Wheat from Illionois US every year for last 50yrs with huge label " From the American People" really help deal with food insecurity. Does the US do that to deal with poor in the US or they just wire money [food stamps]. USAID for many years insisted on that flawed model..when every food security experts knew it was just vicious cycle...that was negatively impacting local markets and local free market ability to correct demand+supply side of food affairs..it took Norwegians and Oxfam guts to try cash transfer (read how this helped Brazil reduce poverty)..and now instead of sending yellow maize..folks are being Mpesad money...to buy local food. Now a farmer in Eldoret can send his food to turkana..or well rich turkana can sell food to poor fellow starving turkanas..and local economy is booming. Before then...everywhere was like Ukambani..completely negatively dependant on lining up for free food aid year in year out...we use to receive phone calls from Kalonzo and Ngilu to increase number of folks who need food aid..it was the only "maendeleo" down there. NEGATIVE IMPACT.
I don't know enough about Healthcare....but if anything..i am sure it's the same zero or negative impact....i have done 1 or 2 HIV-AIDS projects....but i don't remember anything inspiring about providing mushroom or some nutrients to HIV-AIDS victims.
As for Japs and French...maybe you're new but i have always for last 10yrs been praising of the Japs and French...before Chinese..came...China are doing what Japs and French have been doing in grandier scale. JICA model works.
Search google for " SGR to add 2% GDP" ....otherwise i cannot give you fish..like USAID..complete with a silver spoon.
For one, I have pointed out food and medicine that keep people alive. I take it you have no counter to that one. At any rate, there is no need for me to add anything to what I have already stated, as you are determined to believe whatever you will. Nor will I comment again on this idea that the USA or anybody else should be doing this or that in Kenya or elsewhere in Africa.
On the bright side of this little exercise, I note that you have now moved beyond the Chinese and have discovered the French and the Japanese.
China's SGR you can imagine is going to add 2% GDP every yr..for next 3yrs...those are truly amazing stuff..if you know what numbers we are talking about.
There you go again, simply making up numbers. Where did you get that one? Please provide some concrete basis it (i.e. not "I heard it"),
Teach the people how to fish...do not give them fish.
You need to move beyond clichés. But seeing that you mention food: how do Kenyans plan to feed themselves? Eat the SGR? As we write here, Kenyans kids are falling like flies.
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Yet another feeble attempt... Food and Medicine..how is that given.How does shipping yellow Maize or Wheat from Illionois US every year for last 50yrs really help deal with food insecurity.
Nowhere did I say that it deals with food insecurity. What I said is that it keeps people alive. Food insecurity is something Kenyans will have to solve for themselves, although they have never been inclined to do so. Still, Obama is trying to help them by including them in the Feed The Future Program.
Kenya Railways is not the first mismanaged project..here or in kenya....so quit making a meal about it.
The point is that just building another railway will not help anything if the right lessons have not been learned. Think about that when you talk about "sustainable".
Trust me because i have evaluated and monitored several million dollar projects by the same USAID/DFID/name them..and i can tell you without doubt... it is VERY VERY VERY RARE to find a project that has had a positive impact..
The evaluations conducted by the people who want to know how their money is being spent are publicly available. I will go with those. Of course, if you want to post here the results of your evaluation, we'll be happy to also look at them and form a comparative opinion; until then, I'm afraid we must consider such claims as hot air.
Search google for " SGR to add 2% GDP" ....otherwise i cannot give you fish..like USAID..complete with a silver spoon.
He, he, he, ... What a funny man you are! I have already looked into the matter. That is why I asked you to provide a concrete basis for your statement. I leave it to other Nipateans to
(a) 'Search google for " SGR to add 2% GDP"' as you suggest;
(b) If they can find the 2% GDP (or any other figure), to see if there is any concrete basis for the claim.
In the meantime, once again, I encourage you to stop making up numbers as if readers here are the sort of gullible people one finds in a River-Road bar.
Now a farmer in Eldoret can send his food to turkana..or well rich turkana can sell food to poor fellow starving turkanas
So, why are people still starving all over the place? Why are tens of thousands of Kenyan kids still dying from malnutrition? Why are millions of Kenyans unable to grow properly, physically and mentally, because of a lack of proper nutrition?
I don't know enough about Healthcare....but if anything..i am sure it's the same zero or negative impact....
You don't know, but you are sure. Standard Pundit. How about you first find out and then form an opinion?
And every country esp a poor one need help. Stop long lectures on that. We all need help at some point.
Yes, but trying to help people who won't help themselves is ultimately a futile exercise. As we can see here, there is a lot of excitement about infrastructure but not about food or health. What does that tell us? That Kenyans will continue to die from lack of proper food and easily-preventable diseases.
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In summary you're a like the naive do-gooder who give coins and food to street beggar..and is only suprised next time he visit...he see a clan of street beggars. That is call negative impact. Just stop giving those beggars food. They won't die. They'll figure it out. And if you really want to help them...please help them by using at least common sense.
If USAID really want to help deal with food insecurity...and i think they want...how about they use 700MUSD to build a Galana type 1M acre irrigation scheme in Turkana...that will produce enough food.
Are we food insecure because we are lazy or because we work our farms..and wait for rainfall that just never comes or comes at wrong time??????????????
99% of food insecurity in kenya is linked to DROUGHT...failure of rainfall..and solutions...that USAID should focus on is on that.Feed The Future Program which i know more deeply than you is waste of time...and resources..not any different from all the failed models before.
As for figures...am good in figures...so i know what figures means and i do not throw them ovyo ovyo..i just do not have time for hyperlinking like this was master thesis.
Healthcare..i know a little (but maybe more than you).. but generally it mainly doesn't work...we did review AMPATH work in North Rift...and of course no HIV AID victims want to go around with a tag "I am a HIV person who is receiving enriched mushroom From the American People" ..in fact we had problem tracing and interviewing any good numbers of USAID recipients for obvious reasons and therefore all the "good intention" work of 700MUSD is going into bottomless pit of NGO.
700M USAID DOWN THE DRAINS. Mainly.
Yet another feeble attempt... Food and Medicine..how is that given.How does shipping yellow Maize or Wheat from Illionois US every year for last 50yrs really help deal with food insecurity.
Nowhere did I say that it deals with food insecurity. What I said is that it keeps people alive. Food insecurity is something Kenyans will have to solve for themselves, although Obama is trying to help them by including them in the Feed The Future Program.
Search google for " SGR to add 2% GDP" ....otherwise i cannot give you fish..like USAID..complete with a silver spoon.
He, he, he, ... What a funny man you are! I have already looked into the matter. That is why I asked you to provide a concrete basis for your statement. I leave it to other Nipateans to
(a) 'Search google for " SGR to add 2% GDP"' as you suggest;
(b) If they can find the 2% GDP (or any other figure), to see if there is any concrete basis for the claim.
In the meantime, once again, I encourage you to stop making up numbers as if readers here are the sort of gullible people one finds in a River-Road bar.
Now a farmer in Eldoret can send his food to turkana..or well rich turkana can sell food to poor fellow starving turkanas
So, why are people still starving all over the place? Why are tens of thousands of Kenyan kids still dying from malnutrition? Why are millions of Kenyans unable to grow properly, physically and mentally, because of a lack of proper nutrition?
I don't know enough about Healthcare....but if anything..i am sure it's the same zero or negative impact....
You don't know, but you are sure. Standard Pundit. How about you first find out and then form an opinion?
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Just stop giving those beggars food. They won't die. They'll figure it out.
Good one. Let's remember it the next time we are shown horrifying photos of skeletal, filthy people with flies buzzing around them and the government of Kenya sending out urgent messages for the world to "urgently help".
99% of food insecurity in kenya is linked to DROUGHT...failure of rainfall..and solutions...that USAID should focus on is on that.
One more time: it is not the job of USAID or anyone else to feed Kenyans. Kenyans can feed themselves if they get their priorities right. So stop going on and on about what USAID should supposedly be doing.
As for figures...am good in figures...so i know what figures means and i do not throw them ovyo ovyo..i just do not have time for hyperlinking like this was master thesis.
He, he, he .... Like I said, you are a very funny man! But it's not the first time (even just on this thread) that you've made up numbers and then started to wriggle when questioned.
...we did review AMPATH work in North Rift...in fact we had problem tracing and interviewing any good numbers of USAID recipients
Who is this "we", and where can we find the results of your imaginary evaluations? I am especially interested in the "several million dollar projects by the same USAID/DFID/name them" that you have supposedly "evaluated and monitored".
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The pictures mainly comes from the same self-serving NGOS who want USAIDS tap to remain open. I use to ran the figures. I know how very hard it is for a person to die from hunger. I think human body can go for 2 weeks without food.
In any case i think we are going circular.
USAID are there to help...so are the Chinese...so are the Japs...let them use their brains to help us..or well let them not throw their money down bottomless pits..and then demand to be praised.
We need help. We cannot initiate 1B USD irrigation scheme in turkana without help...either in AID or LOAN or FDI or technical help.
It not a secret we are poor. That is the reality we find ourselves. We cannot blame the victim of poverty.
Just stop giving those beggars food. They won't die. They'll figure it out.
Good one. Let's remember it the next time we are shown horrifying photos of skeletal, filthy people with flies buzzing around them and the government of Kenya sending out urgent messages for the world to "urgently help".
99% of food insecurity in kenya is linked to DROUGHT...failure of rainfall..and solutions...that USAID should focus on is on that.
One more time: it is not the job of USAID or anyone else to feed Kenyans. Kenyans can feed themselves if they get their priorities right. So stop going on and on about what USAID should supposedly be doing.
As for figures...am good in figures...so i know what figures means and i do not throw them ovyo ovyo..i just do not have time for hyperlinking like this was master thesis.
He, he, he .... Like I said, you are a very funny man! But it's not the first time (even just on this thread) that you've made up numbers and then started to wriggle when questioned.
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Figures: google search;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDIQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.capital.nedbank.co.za%2Fnedbank%2Faction%2Fmedia%2FdownloadFile%3Fmedia_fileid%3D2598&ei=QE_nVM6yG4O07gbes4HwCA&usg=AFQjCNEZxCTCyX4q2-1kCCUP6VTymL9YRA&sig2=t307wMBuzZgrXbjAPc1NpA
"upgrade the rail network between the .... project, due to be completed by 2016, will add between 2% and 3% to Kenya's GDP."
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Figures: google search;
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDIQFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.capital.nedbank.co.za%2Fnedbank%2Faction%2Fmedia%2FdownloadFile%3Fmedia_fileid%3D2598&ei=QE_nVM6yG4O07gbes4HwCA&usg=AFQjCNEZxCTCyX4q2-1kCCUP6VTymL9YRA&sig2=t307wMBuzZgrXbjAPc1NpA
"upgrade the rail network between the .... project, due to be completed by 2016, will add between 2% and 3% to Kenya's GDP."
Ha, ha, ha .... :D :) :D
That's it?
If you looked carefully at what I wrote, you will note that I repeatedly asked for a concrete basis. You have "cleverly" omitted some key words. Here is exactly what the report at the link says:
"Kenya believes that the corridor project, due to be completed by 2016, will add between 2% and 3% to Kenya’s GDP by 2020 and says Lamu will boast 32 berths when completed in 2030."
That's it. "Kenya believes". On what basis does Kenya believe? Oh, and obviously it won't be completed in 2016.
Please try again!
Also, your claim was that the SGR would add 2% to GDP per year, and that is what you were questioned about. If you look at the report, you will note that the "project" being referred to includes LAPSSE, which started when?
"Kenya expects big things of its new port at Lamu, part of a $25.5 billion project intended to link landlocked South Sudan and Ethiopia to the Indian Ocean port via a major highway, railway and oil pipeline."
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Try this...
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Initial-work-on-new-rail-to-raise-GDP-6-9pc-in-2015/-/539552/2524366/-/lvew5ez/-/index.html
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or this...
http://www.ventures-africa.com/2015/01/standard-gauge-railway-to-raise-kenyas-gdp-by-1-5-percent/
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Google some more..and show me one USAID project that can dream of such IMPACT.
1.5% of GDP growth...in 53B or about GDP..is alot of money..added to the economy.
“When the construction project ends and the trains start operating, it will lead to a big reduction in goods and change this country. This single project alone will raise our GDP by 1.5 percent and that can enable us achieve growth rates of even 8 percent because we are now growing at 5.8 percent,” he said.
Read more at: http://www.ventures-africa.com/2015/01/standard-gauge-railway-to-raise-kenyas-gdp-by-1-5-percent/
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Try this...
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Initial-work-on-new-rail-to-raise-GDP-6-9pc-in-2015/-/539552/2524366/-/lvew5ez/-/index.html
I have seen all that before.
(a) I was careful to ask for a concrete basis for any claim.
(b) In any case, your claim was that "add 2% GDP every yr..for next 3yrs". That article says that
"“The SGR’s initial construction work will contribute to higher real GDP growth, projected to rise to 6.9 per cent in 2015 from 5.3 per cent in 2014,”
That works out to 1.6% for one year. And there's still (a), regardless of the source.
Oh, another thing: if you look at all the money that's been borrowed or is otherwise involved in the thing, how much % is that of Kenyan GDP.
Please keep trying!
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Classical hair splitting.
Learn to round off figures..this is an internet forum..not a scientific thesis where i need to care about high floating point precision. 1.6% or 1.5% is rounded off to 2%...and these are figures that i keep in memory...stuff i read here or there.
We are making main points regarding USAID and China model..not nitpicking and generally being petty.
You're either running on empty or you can't help being petty.
SGR will add 2% to our GDP when it under construction now and after the trains start running...that statement is generally true...
Try this...
http://www.businessdailyafrica.com/Initial-work-on-new-rail-to-raise-GDP-6-9pc-in-2015/-/539552/2524366/-/lvew5ez/-/index.html
I have seen all that before.
(a) I was careful to ask for a concrete basis for any claim.
(b) In any case, your claim was that "add 2% GDP every yr..for next 3yrs". That article says that
"“The SGR’s initial construction work will contribute to higher real GDP growth, projected to rise to 6.9 per cent in 2015 from 5.3 per cent in 2014,”
That works out to 1.6% for one year. And there's still (a), regardless of the source.
Oh, another thing: if you look at all the money that's been borrowed or is otherwise involved in the thing, how much % is that of Kenyan GDP.
Please keep trying!
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Google some more..and show me one USAID project that can dream of such IMPACT.
1.5% of GDP growth...in 53B or about GDP..is alot of money..added to the economy.
“When the construction project ends and the trains start operating, it will lead to a big reduction in goods and change this country. This single project alone will raise our GDP by 1.5 percent and that can enable us achieve growth rates of even 8 percent because we are now growing at 5.8 percent,” he said.
Read more at: http://www.ventures-africa.com/2015/01/standard-gauge-railway-to-raise-kenyas-gdp-by-1-5-percent/
Let's forget USAID for a minute. I see that there you have quoted Kenyatta. If you back and carefully read what I wrote, you will find this:
"Please provide some concrete basis it (i.e. not "I heard it")".
Anyway, once again, here is what I challenged you on:
"add 2% GDP every yr..for next 3yrs"
Stop wriggling and address that!
1.6% or 1.5% is rounded off to 2%...
Nice on. 0.4% or 0.5% relative to Kenya's GDP is not trivial enough to say, oh just round it. But that aside, what about the 3 years? Where did you get that one?
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Google some more..and show me one USAID project that can dream of such IMPACT.
1.5% of GDP growth...in 53B or about GDP..is alot of money..added to the economy.
“When the construction project ends and the trains start operating, it will lead to a big reduction in goods and change this country. This single project alone will raise our GDP by 1.5 percent and that can enable us achieve growth rates of even 8 percent because we are now growing at 5.8 percent,” he said.
Read more at: http://www.ventures-africa.com/2015/01/standard-gauge-railway-to-raise-kenyas-gdp-by-1-5-percent/
Let's forget USAID for a minute. I see that there you have quoted Kenyatta. If you back and carefully read what I wrote, you will find this:
"Please provide some concrete basis for it (i.e. not "I heard it")".
Anyway, once again, here is what I challenged you on:
"add 2% GDP every yr..for next 3yrs"
Stop wriggling and address that!
1.6% or 1.5% is rounded off to 2%... and these are figures that i keep in memory
Nice one. 0.4% or 0.5% relative to Kenya's GDP is not trivial enough to say, oh just round it. In memory? And there you were, directing me to Google and fishing up some other, funny 2%
But that aside, what about the 3 years? Where did you get that one?
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You're just being petty coz you're now running on empty. I get figures from reading newspapers and remembering them. I have a day and night job....it's not to remember commas and decimal points in everything i read.
I remember reading several articles over the last few yrs claiming SGR will add 2% (learn to round off) based on projection by several institutions that does such kind of things...
You clearly had never heard of any such thing....but here we are going back and forth on 1.6% or 1.5%..
Do you have anything more you'd love to tell us about USAID or FTF?
Show us really impactful project in Healthcare that put to shame 1.5000000000000% that China will help us add to our GDP.
But that aside, what about the 3 years? Where did you get that one?
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I remember reading several articles over the last few yrs claiming SGR will add 2% (learn to round off) based on projection by several institutions that does such kind of things...
One more time:
(a) Not "I remember" .... concrete basis, please!
And this one:
But that aside, what about the 3 years? Where did you get that one?
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Officially you've nothing more to debate on this topic. I guess you've realized that China is doing hell lot more than your vaunted USAID and getting lot more impact, lot more love from kenyans and politicians of course.
I am suprised you haven't yet picked on my typos, grammars and such nonsense.
I remember reading several articles over the last few yrs claiming SGR will add 2% (learn to round off) based on projection by several institutions that does such kind of things...
One more time:
(a) Not "I remember" .... concrete basis, please!
And this one:
But that aside, what about the 3 years? Where did you get that one?
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Officially you've nothing more to debate on this topic. I guess you've realized that China is doing hell lot more than your vaunted USAID and getting lot more impact, lot more love from kenyans and politicians of course.
I don't know if love from Kenyan politicians is something anyone should even acknowledge. Anyways ....
One more try: :D :) :D
But that aside, what about the 3 years? Where did you get that one?
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Sound like bla de bla of a bleating goat.
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Sound like bla de bla of a bleating goat.
He, he, he ... that's exactly what I too have been thinking! :D :) :D
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Google some more..and show me one USAID project that can dream of such IMPACT.
1.5% of GDP growth...in 53B or about GDP..is alot of money..added to the economy.
“When the construction project ends and the trains start operating, it will lead to a big reduction in goods and change this country. This single project alone will raise our GDP by 1.5 percent and that can enable us achieve growth rates of even 8 percent because we are now growing at 5.8 percent,” he said.
Read more at: http://www.ventures-africa.com/2015/01/standard-gauge-railway-to-raise-kenyas-gdp-by-1-5-percent/
Your are spitting confusion,
There is a difference between:
(a) Development finance which deals with project finance,those are things like SGR/Chinese,Greenfield terminal/Chinese & west,Mombasa port/Japanese,Geothermal/west these are projects which depend on who the regime chooses to award the tender,
(b) Aid like the USAID or DFID activities in health dairy micro-insurance etc etc these west NGOs use these projects to look for credit markets for their banks like KCB USA DAIRY scheme, or market for their companies Livestock insurance,AGOA coffee supply chain,USAID health initiative which led to the GE health project in Kenya or Climate change initiatives which led to wind and energy projects,food security where usa companies get tenders to feed hungry people in Africa etc etc or reforms to allow GMOs for Monsanto or dupont,
Chinese major focus is development finance since its easy and guaranteed credit,AID is mostly private sector based,nobody is here to help,
Without Prejudice.
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You're too wet behind the ears to engage in any constructive debate with me.
Your are spitting confusion,
There is a difference between:
(a) Development finance which deals with project finance,those are things like SGR/Chinese,Greenfield terminal/Chinese & west,Mombasa port/Japanese,Geothermal/west these are projects which depend on who the regime chooses to award the tender,
(b) Aid like the USAID or DFID activities in health dairy micro-insurance etc etc these west NGOs use these projects to look for credit markets for their banks like KCB USA DAIRY scheme, or market for their companies Livestock insurance,AGOA coffee supply chain,USAID health initiative which led to the GE health project in Kenya or Climate change initiatives which led to wind and energy projects,food security where usa companies get tenders to feed hungry people in Africa etc etc or reforms to allow GMOs for Monsanto or dupont,
Chinese major focus is development finance since its easy and guaranteed credit,AID is mostly private sector based,nobody is here to help,
Without Prejudice.
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You're too wet behind the ears to engage in any constructive debate with me.
That does not matter,the most important thing is that I've educated you today on the difference between development finance and Aid,otherwise,you would have continued repeating the same nonsense,
Without Prejudice.
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China continues to develop without all that..and so has many other countries including Malaysia and most of South Asians. China managed to pull out nearly 500M out of poverty in a single generation (never been done before)....through reforms in agriculture and of course huge mega infrastructure project.
There is really no need for debate on what development really is....you'll know development when you see one.
I aver that MOON Ki has captured best the concept of development. In fact, I would go so far as to state that the centrality of sustainable development and its convergence with other factors of development, that is, respect for the rule of law, pluralism, public accountability, human rights and market principles are the essential conditions for just, equitable and enduring economic development.
China didn't develop on account of huge mega infrastructure as you insinuate but rather because Nixon pact of 1972 courtesy of the exigencies of Cold War politics essentially gave China Western know-how (economic, legal and political customs), easy and cheap credit, access to western technology, and most important, a ready market for Chinese exports. In other words, China was able to pursue an export oriented industrialization model at very little cost domestically. Later on, I believe during the Clinton presidency, China was allowed into the WTO even though it was clear that they were not adhering to the tenets of free trade but pursuing a mercantilist approach. And during this same period China continued stealing intellectual property (principally from the US and to a lesser extent Japan and Germany), thereby saving herself vast sums that they steered into infrastructure development --- these examples illustrate China as a classic economics case of a free-rider.
Now you mention Malaysia and South Asian countries. Bad examples. The leadership in Malaysia was relatively enlightened--even after one factors for the racially divisive affirmative action policies favoring the Bhumiputras at the expense of ethnic Chinese-Malaysians or Indian Malaysians. Bottom line: Mahatir was conscious of building a prosperous nation with functioning schools, hospitals, and other infrastructure. Singapore bettered their neighbor. Indonesia under Suharto was a corupt and venal place but one could still see the fruits of economic growth percolating to the masses below.
So back to where we began. Development that is predicated on infrastructure as you seem to allude to can NOT foster real development in democratic Kenya. The Kenyan populace of 2015 know what development should be: democratic rights -- integral part being human rights; freedom of expression; rights to assembly; right to defend themselves from State oppression, and many others that i won't delve into.
Remember: Replicability is not reproducibility.
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Whatever one is inclined to say about all those Asian countries, the first thing they figured out was how to feed themselves.
This one will be a familiar story:
"The grim annual hunger statistics have been posted once again. About 10 million Kenyans face food shortages at any given time. Currently, about two million people face chronic food scarcity.
These are bare statistics: the grim reality behind them will soon hit us in the form of images of emaciated children, women, and men.
Our development agenda is contradictory: recurrent hunger has been in the background of 15 years of pumping trillions of shillings in infrastructural expansion, yet strategies meant to ensure food security, such as the one million acre Galana-Kalalu irrigation programme, are handicapped by lack of funds.
Of what use is 5,000 kilometres of paved roads, nuclear energy, or standard gauge railway if some Kenyans have nothing to eat? What could be done to remedy this?"
http://www.nation.co.ke/oped/Opinion/Food-Security-Hunger-Famine-Kenya/-/440808/2642596/-/11eqrw5z/-/index.html
Accompanying photo of folks waiting for food handouts:
(http://www.nation.co.ke/image/view/-/2642598/highRes/958721/-/maxw/600/-/naf84j/-/DN+Hunger+0102f.JPG.JPG.jpg)
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but rather because Nixon pact of 1972
No,
China developed from 1978 when Den xiaoping took over and switched from collective ownership to private ownership,that attracted investment and massive growth to present day,
Without Prejudice.
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but rather because Nixon pact of 1972
No,
China developed from 1978 when Den xiaoping took over and switched from collective ownership to private ownership,that attracted investment and massive growth to present day,
Without Prejudice.
Your statement is true but false. Any fair assessment of the rapprochement between the United States and China must be viewed in its historical context, that is, it's a continuum in analysis. Practically every historian and economist of note looks at that 1972 Beijing meeting between Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai as the seminal meeting that ensured that China began the process of becoming deeply integrated into the world economic and financial system. So I would venture that 1972 precedes 1978.
Now, of course, I have to rightfully give it to Deng Xiaoping as the man who instituted and implemented China's long overdue economic reforms aka the architect of China's economic renaissance.
P.S. I note that you truncated my statement to give credence to what you are trying to put forth.
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but rather because Nixon pact of 1972
No,
China developed from 1978 when Den xiaoping took over and switched from collective ownership to private ownership,that attracted investment and massive growth to present day,
Without Prejudice.
Your statement is true but false. Any fair assessment of the rapprochement between the United States and China must be viewed in its historical context, that is, it's a continuum in analysis. Practically every historian and economist of note looks at that 1972 Beijing meeting between Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai as the seminal meeting that ensured that China began the process of becoming deeply integrated into the world economic and financial system. So I would venture that 1972 precedes 1978.
Now, of course, I have to rightfully give it to Deng Xiaoping as the man who instituted and implemented China's long overdue economic reforms aka the architect of China's economic renaissance.
P.S. I note that you truncated my statement to give credence to what you are trying to put forth.
Why did then did we not see these economic reforms for 6 years after Nixon visit?
Its because Mao and his grouping never believed in free market.France educated Den Xiaoping (Who mao tzedong never liked and fired twice) conducted a civillian coup in a 1978 meeting and ousted Mao Tzedong communist remnants and immediately switched china from collectivism to private ownership and as they say,the rest is history.
Without Prejudice.
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but rather because Nixon pact of 1972
No,
China developed from 1978 when Den xiaoping took over and switched from collective ownership to private ownership,that attracted investment and massive growth to present day,
Without Prejudice.
Your statement is true but false. Any fair assessment of the rapprochement between the United States and China must be viewed in its historical context, that is, it's a continuum in analysis. Practically every historian and economist of note looks at that 1972 Beijing meeting between Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai as the seminal meeting that ensured that China began the process of becoming deeply integrated into the world economic and financial system. So I would venture that 1972 precedes 1978.
Now, of course, I have to rightfully give it to Deng Xiaoping as the man who instituted and implemented China's long overdue economic reforms aka the architect of China's economic renaissance.
P.S. I note that you truncated my statement to give credence to what you are trying to put forth.
Why did then did we not see these economic reforms for 6 years after Nixon visit?
Its because Mao and his grouping never believed in free market.France educated Den Xiaoping (Who mao tzedong never liked and fired twice) conducted a civillian coup in a 1978 meeting and ousted Mao Tzedong communist remnants and immediately switched china from collectivism to private ownership and as they say,the rest is history.
Without Prejudice.
I think it's always good practice to put pressure on all your beliefs, social, political, economic, scientific, and philosophical. Take a position or proposition(s) and then try to separate what you know from what you believe.
I'll try.
As I've stated, the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai 1972 meeting set the stage for rapprochment in Sino-American relations whose actual focus was more about Sino-Soviet relations, which were worsening by the day. Thereafter China began piecemeal reforms that also included China's slow integration into the world economic and financial system. What period? The period from 1973 into 1976. Did these nascent reforms go far enough? Absolutely not.
Enter Deng Xiaoping and his major reforms of 1978. Now go back to 1972 and understand why Deng Xiaoping was a beneficiary of the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai detente 6 years earlier. Clearly Deng implemented what Mao and Zhou Enlai had recognized but failed to do - that China needed to exploit the West as a source of investments, technology and export markets, and the corollary being that the West + Japan realised the need to tap into the vast economic market that China presented and thus begun investing large sums of capital in Chinese factories and development.
In sum, your proposition remains true but false and that holds quite well.
P.S. There is a critical point that I've chosen not to include here.
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the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai 1972 meeting set the stage for rapprochment in Sino-American relations whose actual focus was more about Sino-Soviet relations, which were worsening by the day. Thereafter China began piecemeal reforms that also included China's slow integration into the world economic and financial system. What period? The period from 1973 into 1976. Did these nascent reforms go far enough? Absolutely not.
Enter Deng Xiaoping and his major reforms of 1978. Now go back to 1972 and understand why Deng Xiaoping was a beneficiary of the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai detente 6 years earlier. Clearly Deng implemented what Mao and Zhou Enlai had recognized but failed to do - that China needed to exploit the West as a source of investments, technology and export markets, and the corollary being that the West + Japan realised the need to tap into the vast economic market that China presented and thus begun investing large sums of capital in Chinese factories and development.
(a) The Sino-Soviet difference was ideological,it was brought about in 1959-60 when Nikita Kruschev took over after the death of Joseph Stalin,Unlike Stalin,He chose a peaceful co-existence with the west and focus on economy,that is what angered Mao Tzedong,Like Stalin,He wanted an aggressive Soviet,the usa visit to China was out of being isolated from Asia and finding an end to the Vietnam war,remember after Nixon went to China,He then proceeded to Russia to deal with the Vietnam question,
(b) The Chinese Gang of Four.This gang was led by the fourth wife to Mao Tzedong,they were die hard communists,they were in power from mid 1960s until 1976 when they were ousted by the military from the ruling party and persecuted,that's why there was no single economic deal which Nixon would have signed with Mao or zhou because it was this gang of four which had real power.During the Mao regime,people like Deng xiaoping were suspended many times due to their capitalistic views,
(c) Deng Xiaoping,Its now evident for you to see that Deng xiaoping took over power through military and civilian coups between 1976-1978,Now lets go back to the 1960s,At that time,Mao tzedong launched several economic programs which failed,case in point is Great leap forward which led 20-40MN to starve while many became so poor,that was caused by collective ownership,when Deng xiaoping took over,he shifted China through a single stroke of pen from collectivization to private ownership,when you allow private ownership of property,everybody from mama mboga to an American investor invests,
Without Prejudice.
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the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai 1972 meeting set the stage for rapprochment in Sino-American relations whose actual focus was more about Sino-Soviet relations, which were worsening by the day. Thereafter China began piecemeal reforms that also included China's slow integration into the world economic and financial system. What period? The period from 1973 into 1976. Did these nascent reforms go far enough? Absolutely not.
Enter Deng Xiaoping and his major reforms of 1978. Now go back to 1972 and understand why Deng Xiaoping was a beneficiary of the Nixon-Mao-Zhou Enlai detente 6 years earlier. Clearly Deng implemented what Mao and Zhou Enlai had recognized but failed to do - that China needed to exploit the West as a source of investments, technology and export markets, and the corollary being that the West + Japan realised the need to tap into the vast economic market that China presented and thus begun investing large sums of capital in Chinese factories and development.
(a) The Sino-Soviet difference was ideological,it was brought about in 1959-60 when Nikita Kruschev took over after the death of Joseph Stalin,Unlike Stalin,He chose a peaceful co-existence with the west and focus on economy,that is what angered Mao Tzedong,Like Stalin,He wanted an aggressive Soviet,the usa visit to China was out of being isolated from Asia and finding an end to the Vietnam war,remember after Nixon went to China,He then proceeded to Russia to deal with the Vietnam question,
(b) The Chinese Gang of Four.This gang was led by the fourth wife to Mao Tzedong,they were die hard communists,they were in power from mid 1960s until 1976 when they were ousted by the military from the ruling party and persecuted,that's why there was no single economic deal which Nixon would have signed with Mao or zhou because it was this gang of four which had real power.During the Mao regime,people like Deng xiaoping were suspended many times due to their capitalistic views,
(c) Deng Xiaoping,Its now evident for you to see that Deng xiaoping took over power through military and civilian coups between 1976-1978,Now lets go back to the 1960s,At that time,Mao tzedong launched several economic programs which failed,case in point is Great leap forward which led 20-40MN to starve while many became so poor,that was caused by collective ownership,when Deng xiaoping took over,he shifted China through a single stroke of pen from collectivization to private ownership,when you allow private ownership of property,everybody from mama mboga to an American investor invests,
Without Prejudice.
Now this is getting interesting. Particularly your point (c), which was the basis of my postcript above. Care to flesh out this point further?